Talk:Civil courage

Untitled
I am from Germany and had a discussion with Americans recently whether this would be a case of civil courage: a driver is caught by a speed trap, returns and demolishes the gadget, afterwards attacks the police guy. Reasons for why it is civil courage: acting against authority, acting in the best interest of the public, possibility of negative consequesnces for one-self. Reason against: the democratically passed law of allowing speed traps is in the interest of the public, not exemption from punishment after a breach of the rules. Any ideas? Bernburgerin 16:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You would have to presuppose that speed limits are opposed to the best interest of the public and democratic legitimation for some reason does not apply or becomes secondary in this case. --Fasten 18:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Merge to courage
The moral courage page and the civil courage page should be Merged to the courage page. Both are relatively short articles, not to mention the fact that they are specific types of courage. Adding them to the courage article would help improve the quality of that article, as well as the concepts of all three articles due to their better proximity to one another in accordance with their relatedness. As to the position of moral courage with respect to civil courage, I would argue that while "civil courage" (according to the Google test) is a less common term, it is more distinct from courage than "moral courage" is. That is to say, "moral courage" is basically courage with a religious-/philosophical- connotations while civil courage is (descriptively, at least) a distinct type [civilian] of courage. 24.126.199.129 20:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It should probably just be deleted. There's no useful sourcing here. Edaham (talk) 08:18, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with Edaham - this started as an over-write of an existing redirect. I have been keeping an eye on developments but nothing notable has emerged. It is more WP:OR than a sourcable article. It also seems to be hung up on the Train Foundation and reeks just a little of promotionalism and deserves deletion. I would advocate a return to the redirect. However it is at Afd where it may end up as keep but, if so, I would still urge that a merge into Courage is highly preferable. This is an unneeded fork.  Velella  Velella Talk  09:27, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Sourcing
I'm alerting you here because you've expressed an interest in improving this article so as to have it included in the encyclopedia. I would still recommend that this article, per Due, be merged with courage, of which it is a subset, however on this article's page on afd, you posted a number of sources to which I do not currently have access. If you would kindly share them here so that other involved editors can make use of them, it would be much appreciated. Thank you. Edaham (talk) 10:39, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * To start off with the English-language ones, here is a readily available scholarly treatment of the concept:


 * Greitemeyer, T., Osswald, S., Fischer, P., & Frey, D. (2007). Civil courage: Implicit theories, related concepts, and measurement. The Journal of Positive Psychology, 2(2), 115-119.


 * This book chapter also seems useful:


 * Osswald, S., Frey, D., & Streicher, B. (2011). Moral courage. In Justice and conflicts (pp. 391-405). Springer, Berlin, Heidelberg.
 * (it's possible that link is piped through my university access - if so, let me know and I can email the pdf)


 * There's a number of books the content of which is partially accessible through Google books - usefulness to be established.
 * As for the extensive bibliography in the German article, accessing those would require a German library - other side of the world for me currently. Possibly , who appears to have translated the current version, could pull that off? -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 11:11, 16 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Some more citations, copied across from the deletion discussion:
 * "Willkommen auf dem Zivilcourage-Portal!" (University of Zurich)
 * "Sieben Tipps für mehr Zivilcourage " (Süddeutsche Zeitung)
 * "Zivilcourage - Alle Artikel und Hintergründe" (Der Spiegel)
 * "Zivilcourage zeigen" (Bundespolizei)
 * "Zivilcourage" (de:Zeitschrift für Psychologie)
 * "Der Mut des Bürgers" (Bayerischer Rundfunk)
 * Zivilcourage: Wie der Staat seine Bürger im Stich lässt (Michael Wolffsohn, a 2016 book)
 * They would be better in cite formats, but the essential information is there. Narky Blert (talk) 20:22, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

rewrite and content guidelines
given that this article, which would have ‘’full on nose dived’’ at WP:AFC was against my AfD recommendation kept, I have used one or two referenced you provided to at least bring it up to a standard for a stub submission. Please do not revert/restore removed content without adding a reliable and verifiable citation. I understand that what was written there before may have been more extensive than what I have written in its place, but I simply don’t have the time to work through the provided sources to provide inline citations for the previous text. Thank you for your time. Edaham (talk) 00:49, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't dream of reverting you (and I approve your removal of the cruft). My first thought, on reading up about this topic, was the freedom riders. An accurate stub-class article is much better than an inaccurate, off-topic, or unbalanced, start-class article. Narky Blert (talk) 01:44, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Civil courage and moral courage
de:Zivilcourage and moral courage are Interwiki-linked.

Now that the deletion discussion on civil courage has been closed, I ask whether this page should be merged-redirected into moral courage. That concept extends from what Ike wrote, as Supreme Commander, on the eve of D-Day, "The responsibility for the failure is mine and mine alone", to that Chinese guy in Tiananmen Square in 1989.

Moral courage and physical courage are distinct. Physical courage involves only the risk of physical harm to yourself. Moral courage may include that, but it specifically involves the mental elements of accepting the consequences of your action on yourself and on others, and of doing the right thing for the right reasons. Examples of people who have been awarded e.g. the Medal of Valor or the Victoria Cross for bravery in action are easy to find. Moral courage is more rare. I'm currently working on the biography of an Italian priest, murdered (as I read the some of the sources) by the Waffen SS for protecting a girl against rape. That was pure moral courage. Narky Blert (talk) 03:07, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I think that would be a suitable and productive merge. In contrast to subsuming the topic under the general Courage heading, civil and moral courage seem often (verging on generally) to be treated as synonyms. See e.g. the much cited review article (Greitenmeyer et al.) noted above. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 09:23, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
 * An alternative translation of Zivilcourage is civic courage, as in e.g. Joe A. Callaway Award for Civic Courage. Civic courage should perhaps be a redirect to the final destination after the discussion I opened is concluded, not (as it is now) to courage. Narky Blert (talk) 19:37, 26 March 2018 (UTC)