Talk:Civilization/Archive 3

Proposed move: from Civilization to Civilisation
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. 2 July 2005 05:18 (UTC)


 * Civilization &rarr; Civilisation. Americanisation; article acknowledges Latin root word civis, but name blatantly ignores this fact; Ephraim Chambers used the s spelling in his Cyclopedia of 1727-51, with the z spelling only appearing in 1775. Alphax &tau;&epsilon;&chi; 03:06, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Add *Support or *Oppose (followed by an optional brief explanation), and sign your vote with: ~ 


 * '''Strong support"" Wikipedia is a multinational and international collaboration of ideas, and therefore the international 'civilisation' should be used. Furthermore English was developed in England, and its root should be respected.
 * Well, if you want to be historical, English is just a bastardization of Latin; perhaps we should write all Wikipedia articles in that language, to "respect the roots" of western language.--Xiaphias 17:39, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I had to chuckle here at the implication that American English is a bastardization (or should that be bastardisation) of British English Macgruder 15:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

--Prunetucky 19:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Civilization is the original author's selection. Spelling/terminology should not be changed between different varieties of English without substantial justification beyond conformity to one variety or another. &mdash;Lifeisunfair 03:33, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose, Manual of Style Dragons flight 07:04, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose, Much as it grates to see a z in civilisation, to reduce conflict and uncivilized (shudder) behaviour, I think we should stick with Primary Author. Philip Baird Shearer 15:48, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose with similar personal reluctance. If there is no better reason, we go with the first author. The 's' isn't from civis. DJ Clayworth 15:52, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose, for reasons given. Tho' it would make disambigging with Sid Meier's Civs easier. –Hajor 16:12, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Weak Support. Civilisation is not somehow etymologically more correct. --Jpbrenna 19:15, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Strongly oppose. We must stick with the Primary Authorship Policy or we'll have endless debates like the one over the spelling of Yogurt after it was moved. Jonathunder 18:42, 2005 Jun 19 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Americanization is not a valid criterion for a move. Until we find a better way to resolve these debates, we should stick with the primary author's choice, as per policy. &mdash; Knowledge Seeker &#2470; 01:28, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I oppose this move, as per Manual of Style. - Mike Rosoft 18:21, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose for the same reason. Gamaliel 04:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose &mdash;Michael Z. 2005-06-21 05:32 Z 
 * Oppose WBardwin 05:43, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * support PAP is important, but regional terms should only be used for concepts that are regional in nature (e.g. New York Harbor). Civilisation is a global concept, so the International English form should be used. The latin etymology point on the s/z issue is bogus. Rhialto
 * Strongly oppose. The OED recommends -ize spellings as standard (cf. askoxford.com) - prestonmarkstone 17:59, 15 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose[[Image:English dialects1997.png]] most native speakers speak american english
 * Support, but only on principle: The previous point is not a valid one, with all due respect. Just because most "native" speakers speak American English (because the US has nearly 300 million inhabitants), it does not mean that they actually have the most widespread form of english. Outside of the US, it is a form or another of British English grammar that is used. I agree with the "Knowledge seeker" principle, but saying that just because the US has more native speakers justifies US linguistic imperialism, is just misguided. Themalau 18:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Very strong oppose for these reasons:
 * 1. You pronounce it with a zee/zed.
 * 2. It's more internationally recognized.  Compare Spanish Civilización, Esperanto Civilizo, Latvian Civilizācija, Lituanian Civilizacija, Hungarian Civilizáció
 * 3. Might as well keep it with the authors style.
 * 4. Two-thirds of native English speakers are American.Cameron Nedland 19:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I've rarely seen civilization spelled with an s. With z is the standard spelling. Sr13 06:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's an American/non-American distinction. Americans use the z, everyone else uses the s. However, the Wikipedia policy is to use the English spelling form the original article used unless the topic specifically relates to the US (American English always used) or another English-speaking nation (British English always used). —Cuivi é nen 15:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Support - My familiarity is with s. My country uses British English spelling. --Mincan 04:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments

Civilisation is not somehow etymologically more correct. The word itself is a very late neo-Latin neologism, not found in classical or medieval Latin. The Latin noun is civis. The adjectival form is civilis. But a Roman would have called civilization urbanitas, civitas, humanitas or used the Greek &#960;&#959;&#955;&#953;&#964;&#953;&#963;&#956;&#972;&#962; or &#960;&#959;&#955;&#953;&#964;&#949;&#943;&#945; --- not civilisatio, which simply never existed in Latin and is very bad Latin word formation. For the verb "civilize," a Roman would have said excolere or expolire. Civilisation does not somehow preserve a non-existent Roman spelling. In one sense, the American usage is more correct, because it preserves the proper transcription of the Greek zeta -&#943;&#950;&#969; that we English speakers have adopted as our own by appending -ize to almost any noun we choose to make it a verb. This goes back to the entrance of numerous Greek verbs into Latin in late classical and early medieval times, most notably the verb baptizo. The Romans kept the "z", but at some point the proud sons of Albion felt they should have their own Brittanic spelling, while the more humble colonials saw no need to tamper with the patrimony of Jesus, John the Baptist et al. The only reason I support this at all is because Chambers seems to be the originator of the term, and he used the standard British English spelling. I will continue my support only if British Wikipedians solemnly swear to support -ize and -ization for words coined by Americans, so help them God. (Nonconformists may affirm). --Jpbrenna 19:15, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Did you know that the French retort the the old boast that "the sun never sets on the British Empire" is because "God does not trust the British in the dark!". -- Philip Baird Shearer 00:13, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Well you know why I say he made the English Channel so narrow? Because no one can trust those #&%! farther than he could spit at them!  (Haha, just kidding of course!)--Jpbrenna 20:37, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For "civilization" (which is listed under that spelling), the OED refers to "civilize" for the etymology:
 * [app. f. 16th c. F. civilizer (Cotgr.) now civiliser; app. representing a med. or mod.L. civilizare, to make civil (a criminal matter), whence transferred to ‘make civil’ in other senses; f. cīvīl-is CIVIL + verbal formative -izāre, ad. Gr. -ίζειν, in mod.F. -iser, Eng. -IZE, q.v.]

For the Greek-challenged, that's "-izein". The entry for "civilization" also has a 1704-1710 cite to Harris' ''Lex. Techn.'' (predating Chambers) which unfortunately doesn't give the spelling used. DopefishJustin (&#65381;&#8704;&#65381;) June 29, 2005 21:52 (UTC)

An Oxford Dictionaries website states that -ize spellings during the 19th century standardization of English, "the consistent use of -ize was one of the conventions that became established. Further, it states that "The Oxford English Dictionary favoured -ize, partly on the linguistic basis that the suffix derives from the Greek suffix -izo, and this was also the style of Encyclopedia Britannica (even before it was American-owned)." prestonmarkstone November 15, 2005 18:03 (UTC)


 * Actually, it would require fewer disambiguations, so maybe it should be moved.Cameron Nedland 13:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The word civilisation comes from the Latin, civilis, via the French civilisation. The English word is thus Latin in origin. If it were Spanish, Estonian or otherwise a case could be made for the z rather than the s, but etymologically it is more crrect to say civilisation, unless, in the origin section, an amendment on the origins of the American spelling is to be added.

John D. Croft 11:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)