Talk:Civilization (series)

Gameguide material
Hi ,

I actually did provide a reason why I removed that list: it is considered WP:GAMETRIVIA. Wikipedia is written for the general reader, not for a gamer or a person interested in politics in pop culture. Articles on video games should describe the gameplay, a possible plot, development and release, followed by a reception section. A list of real world leaders appearing in a game series doesn't add any relevant information. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 17:40, 16 July 2016 (UTC) soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 17:40, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

, I myself am not a gamer and I find that information interesting. Plus, this article is not about a game, but rather a series of games. I think it is better to put this info here that on the pages of each game which civs they include. And apparently a lot of work has been put into these tables. I would agree, that maybe the leaders table is not necessary, but the civs table, I think, should be kept. Also, with Civ VI being the second game to include city states, I think there should also be a similar table for city states, solely for trivial purposes. Plus, the tables are collapsed so they don't take up much space unless you specifically want to see them.

The article you linked (WP:GAMETRIVIA) also mentions this:

"Trivia: Such information should be integrated into appropriate areas of the article."

I believe that this trivial information is in an appropriate area and as I've mentioned, doesn't take up a lot of space if you're not interested in it.

--Luchador619 (talk) 09:47, 17 July 2016 (UTC)


 * A lot of work is not a reason to keep something on Wikipedia. Trivial information should be integrated, not have its own huge list. City-states too are not necessary to include. Since you're not a gamer, why do you think this is necessary to include it into the article? What are the benefits of including the list? What purpose does it serve? And to make a WP:OTHERSTUFF, why not include a list of levels, controls, weapons, vehicles, cheats? soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 13:13, 17 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The civ series does not have a plot. The whole focus of the series is on having historical civilizations fight/out-develop one another, so it's no uncalled for to state which civilizations have been included in the series. It's no different than how several fighting game series articles include tables stating which playable characters have been in which entry (List of Street Fighter characters, List of Mortal Kombat characters).108.46.147.132 (talk) 03:06, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I removed the table once more. It adds nothing of valuable information and says nothing about gameplay. It is trivial, and not suitable for a Wikipedia article.  soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 20:54, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh come on. You clearly didn't achieve consensus for that in July. Waiting six months and then repeating an earlier action is not a substitute for actually changing people's minds. To my mind, the analogy with the lists of characters is more persuasive than the analogy with the list of levels/controls/weapons/vehicles. Furius (talk) 14:16, 14 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I will add my voice that the civ table is unnecessary and gameguide material. I don't find the compared to a list of characters here compelling, as there's no narrative developed for any civ as you play the game. Further while they are based on historical figures, the devs have said repeatedly this is a loose interpretation of history and thus should not be considered accurate, so there's not significant historical content to keep. Its reasonable to note a few examples of how the game uses historical civs and figures in prose, but the table fails our content guidelines. --M ASEM (t) 14:44, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
 * , I just happen to come across it again. I gave several valid reasons (WP:GAMEGUIDE, WP:VG/MOS) why inclusion is not appropriate, and nobody gave a good argument why it should stay. It's a gigantic table of real-world historic figures and cultures that make an appearance, without any substantial information about the gameplay or narrative. Wikipedia is written for a general audience, not for players who want to know what characters appear in a game. agrees with me. Can you cite a guideline that would allow for such a list?  soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 15:19, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
 * , any thoughts? soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 12:08, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * It's been over two months at this point. I'm taking it out again. Feel free to go to WT:VG or WP:RFC. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 13:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I appreciate the angle you are taking that the list of civilizations is over the top for a page like Wikipedia, given the articles are aimed at the general public...but in that case, why are the lists of characters in Street Fighter and Mortal Combat allowed? You at least need to be consistent; and if you cannot be, I do not see why the list of Civilizations shouldn't return. They are just as widely loved, hated, and argued over by fans as the characters in the fighting games are; and the characters in the fighting games are of no more (in-fact arguably less) importance to the casual reader. 122.62.49.114 (talk) 21:00, 29 July 2017 (UTC) Jonny
 * There are over 5 million articles on English Wikipedia. The article that "some other articles has it" isn't valid (See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). Those articles need to be cleaned up too, but there's only so many editors for so many articles. -- ferret (talk) 21:11, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Because a minority of editors do not like or care about this material is not a reason to remove it. By contrast, myself and many others do indeed find this particular content helpful for understanding the series just as an article about battle casualties in a war containing a comparative chart would be relevant as well.  There is no valid reason for this content to be removed.  --143.105.17.63 (talk) 21:34, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Someone deleted the list of all the civs. Please stop sabotaging!
See below:

(cur | prev) 19:46, 30 April 2017‎ Soetermans (talk | contribs)‎. . (41,723 bytes) (-26,026)‎. . (Undid revision 777987452 by 2x2leax (talk)) (undo) (cur | prev) 14:23, 30 April 2017‎ 2x2leax (talk | contribs)‎ m. . (67,749 bytes) (+26,026)‎. . (undo) (Tag: nowiki added) (cur | prev) 13:15, 30 April 2017‎ Soetermans (talk | contribs)‎. . (41,723 bytes) (-26,026)‎. . (See talk page; list of in-game world leaders is trivial and does not say anything about gameplay) (undo) (Tags: Mobile edit, Mobile web edit)

No, no, no, you are wrong. It is very important info. Don't sabotage and throw away other people's hundreds of hours' work. Learn to respect others' contribution! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.99.96.168 (talk) 00:21, 23 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Good lord, it is not important information at all. Are you familiar with Wikipedia guidelines? WP:NOT says what Wikipedia isn't. Wikipedia is not a WP:GAMEGUIDE, not a WP:PLOT database. Wikipedia is written for a large audience, not for gamers or people interested in history. For John and Jane Wikipediareader, seeing a gigantic list of in-game appearances does not make their understanding of Civilization any better. And your WP:HARDWORK argument is not a reason either. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 06:13, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

What you are citing seems bearing no relationship to what you actually do. You deleted and repeatedly dispose of other people's work. Your fixation seems extremely puzzling and ludicrous. Can you just write here to let the Wikipedia community know why you are so fixed on getting rid of this part? It better be good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.99.96.168 (talk) 20:51, 23 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Excuse me? I am part of the Wikipedia community, and have been for over ten years. I'm an active member of WikiProject Video Games, and you expect me to explain to you why I am following its core guidelines? Well, sure, why not.


 * 1) WP:GAMEGUIDE: Wikipedia is not a gameguide. A video game article or a video game series article should describe the subject as a cultural object. Gameplay, plot, development, reception, that's pretty much the basic set up.
 * 2) WP:INDISCRIMINATE: Wikipedia is not the place for arbitrary collections of list of information, even if true.
 * 3) WP:AUDIENCE: Wikipedia is not written for gamers, articles are written for a large audience. Better yet, try to imagine that someone has never played a video game.
 * 4) And last but not least, WP:VG/MOS, which is the specific guideline on editing video game-related articles.
 * 5) WP:BURDEN: the burden to prove the notability and usefulness of a gigantic list is on you. I don't have to prove that it isn't. I've reverted you a second time and given you another warning. Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia guidelines, instead of commanding a long-time editor that my motivations "better be good". soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 05:40, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh, and what you can also try to do is ask WikiProject Video Games for input, like on their talk page. Or, you could go to WP:RFC. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 05:41, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

No I am expecting you to explain why you do not follow Wikipedia's guidelines at all. You have previously been warned by many people about your attempted and persistent vandalism. Have you not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.99.96.168 (talk) 16:30, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
 * ...No, I haven't, and I explained why I do follow Wikipedia's guidelines. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 16:46, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I've left a message at WT:VG, asking for input. I don't think it's possible to reason with you, when I point to guidelines and you say that I don't follow them. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 16:54, 24 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Garbage like this doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Current consensus supports Soetermans' removal of the content. --The1337gamer (talk) 17:15, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

@Soetermans Good, about time to get a thrid opinion. That is exactly what I was about to do--getting a third opinion, but in a different way. Thanks for finally resorting to non-aggression. I will put off reaching out to third parties unless you further escalate it. Please keep calm. No more aggression or escalation. Not the first time for you, is it? Just for the record, this is not the first time this issue has come up, several members of the community and contributors to this page have had, specifically with you trying to get rid of this section. Let's look at the track record.

@The1337gamer "Garbage"? "consensus"? Look at the record before you say anything like. MULTIPLE contributors have reverted the vandalist delete. Explain to all of us community members how all these people are garbage collectors.

(cur | prev) 05:43, 23 May 2017‎ Soetermans (talk | contribs)‎ m. . (42,577 bytes) (-26,026)‎. . (Reverted 1 edit by 97.99.96.168 (talk) to last revision by Masem. (TW)) (undo) (cur | prev) 00:19, 23 May 2017‎ 97.99.96.168 (talk)‎. . (68,603 bytes) (+26,026)‎. . (Undid revision 778036035 by Soetermans (talk)) (undo) (Tag: nowiki added)

(cur | prev) 19:46, 30 April 2017‎ Soetermans (talk | contribs)‎. . (41,723 bytes) (-26,026)‎. . (Undid revision 777987452 by 2x2leax (talk)) (undo) (cur | prev) 14:23, 30 April 2017‎ 2x2leax (talk | contribs)‎ m. . (67,749 bytes) (+26,026)‎. . (undo) (Tag: nowiki added) (cur | prev) 13:15, 30 April 2017‎ Soetermans (talk | contribs)‎. . (41,723 bytes) (-26,026)‎. . (See talk page; list of in-game world leaders is trivial and does not say anything about gameplay) (undo) (Tags: Mobile edit, Mobile web edit)

(cur | prev) 14:20, 14 February 2017‎ Furius (talk | contribs)‎. . (67,200 bytes) (+25,476)‎. . (Undid revision 765332117 by Soetermans (talk) - per talk page.) (undo) (Tag: nowiki added) (cur | prev) 20:47, 13 February 2017‎ Soetermans (talk | contribs)‎. . (41,724 bytes) (-25,476)‎. . (Good lord, what a monstrosity of WP:GAMEGUIDE material) (undo) (Tags: Mobile edit, Mobile web edit) (cur | prev) 20:37, 13 February 2017‎ Soetermans (talk | contribs)‎. . (67,200 bytes) (-24)‎. . (Style) (undo) (Tags: Mobile edit, Mobile web edit)

(cur | prev) 17:01, 16 July 2016‎ Luchador619 (talk | contribs)‎. . (58,960 bytes) (+26,777)‎. . (Undid revision 729696790 by Soetermans (talk) No reason to delete the whole section of page with important/interesting information about the game series.) (undo) (Tag: nowiki added) (cur | prev) 23:10, 13 July 2016‎ Soetermans (talk | contribs)‎. . (32,183 bytes) (-1)‎. . (→‎External links: italics, links) (undo) (cur | prev) 23:08, 13 July 2016‎ Soetermans (talk | contribs)‎. . (32,184 bytes) (-26,777)‎. . (→‎Civilizations and leaders represented: WP:GAMEGUIDE) (undo)

97.99.96.168 (talk) 17:33, 24 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Everything and others have said about this table is correct. Its not wanted in this article, you're free to take it to another gaming wiki like Wikia or GameFAAQs. But it has to go, it falls foul of the policies that Wikipedia users have created for articles. - X201 (talk) 17:53, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Same. The table is unnecessary to the reader we target, which we consider to be a non-gamer. We're not here to document the game to this great a detail, and do bring up enough in prose to understand there's a multitude of civs to be selected from, and that's about as much as we need. --M ASEM (t) 18:00, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with Soetermans as well. This is the type of thing our WP:GAMECRUFT guideline exists to combat. This is the type of thing that belongs on video game websites like Gamefaqs, or a fan Wikia or something. It doesn't belong in an encyclopedia like Wikipedia, which is not a WP:GAMEGUIDE.  Sergecross73   msg me  18:18, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Also agreeing with the others. Just because it's helpful doesn't give it a privilege to belong here, else we'd include guides, walkthroughs, and cheat codes. The relevant policies and guidelines for the reason it keeps being removed have already been provided above. ~ Dissident93  ( talk ) 19:14, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

To answer your deleted question/accusation. They were archived because that's what we do to talk pages to keep them tidy. I was so duplicitous that I put the archive box on the talk page to link to them!! - X201 (talk) 20:50, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Also to address the deleted accusation/statement by the IP, while I appreciate you're choosing "not to escalate" the situation, but in reality, you have no grounds to anyways, as you have neither policy nor consensus on your side. You don't seem to even understand how WP:ARCHIVEs work. Please, try to at least learn the basics before so aggressively challenging everyone, making bad-faith accusations, etc. Sergecross73   msg me  12:18, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

You Morons, that was the only reason that I came to this page to see what kind of nations are being included or worth of adding to games. Clearly, you are incompetent in what you are doing. Your users must be revoked before you conduct any further damage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.134.96.248 (talk) 16:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Just look at an old revision of the page, you can still see the info you want. It's just not going to be displayed in the live version of the article anymore. Then read WP:CIVIL - X201 (talk) 19:08, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * We can also still see it by just restoring it. ;) After all, actual consensus amongst a majority of editors and readers is for it to be in the article. --143.105.17.63 (talk) 21:35, 23 January 2018 (UTC)


 * FWIW, I'd have kept the list of civilizations and leaders in the article. p  b  p  23:46, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I encourage you to restore it. Those removing it seem to essentially boil down to "I don't like it" when having it in no way actually diminishes the quality of the article.  If anything, it makes the article more helpful for are readers.  This "game guide" nonsense is sometimes taken much too far.  If a list of U.S. presidents is encyclopedic then so is a well-organized and well-referenced list of leaders, etc. for a game series.  Clearly a majority of people who actually are interested in this topic want it restored.  --24.112.234.124 (talk) 19:43, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * My first contribution to Wikipedia so I hope I am formatting things correctly. I would like to put in my vote for the inclusion of the leader list. Although it seems on the surface to be more of trivia, it might be of common interest because the game has been criticized at times for inclusion or exclusion of certain leaders; I think it is also of interest even for the casual reader to know that a controversial figure such as Stalin was included in certain versions. Also, because of the relative importance of this series in the civilization-building genre, it might serve more interest than individual or less influential game series. This is a series that has been ongoing for 30 years. Thanks. 38.134.240.15 (talk) 01:09, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the list of civilizations - would it be reasonable to make a separate page documenting this information? It would seem that this is on par with a list of characters (in particular, the leaders themselves), which is commonly found in other video games / their series (e.g. Characters in the Super Smash Bros. series), as with other fictional works. --2602:306:C531:7310:5575:203D:344F:D72F (talk) 21:05, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Agree with the guy above, or maybe we can put the list here, but I thought Wikipedia should have been an encyclopia of everything.AwkwrdPrtMskrt (talk) 23:57, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Not its not. See What Wikipedia is not, and one thing is specifically being a game guide. Other wikis have this information. --M asem (t) 00:06, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

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Board games
This article needs to mention the official Civilization board games, of which I think there are at least FOUR different versions:. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:47, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

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"Civilopedia" listed at Redirects for discussion
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70 million sales
Source :https://newsroom.2k.com/news/sid-meiers-civilizationr-vii-coming-in-2025

"  “With more than 70 million copies sold-in and over 1 billion hours played, the Civilization franchise is a crown jewel for 2K," stated David Ismailer, President of 2K Games. "

Can someone take care of updating the page? Thanks in advance. 2001:861:2462:3060:A5DF:F586:F28B:AE7 (talk) 13:02, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Civilization IV: Colonization.
There seems to be no mention of Civilization IV Colonization on the page. 24.180.133.113 (talk) 12:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)