Talk:Claire Dux

Nationality
Clara Auguste Dux was born in 1885 near Bydgoszcz (then Bromberg), probably within the county Kreis Gnesen (Gniezno), from the which the Kreis Witkowo was split in 1887; that area was part of the Kingdom of Prussia's Province of Posen from 1815 until 1920. Michael Scott writes in The Record of Singing: "Though she was born in Poland, her family were Germans."

Of the three listed villages named Witkowice in Greater Poland, Witkowice, Konin County seems the most likely; it's 107 km east of Poznań, and Gniezno is about 50 km east, Bydgoszcz about 100 km north-east. The other villages Witkowice in Greater Poland are north of Poznań.

I think Grove's Alan Blyth, who doesn't cite any supporting literature, failed to grasp the vagaries of the partitions of Poland. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * That is an excellent point... I'm inclined to agree with you. However, it's a bit tricky avoiding WP:OR here. I'm not sure what the best solution is. I'd like to get voceditenore's input. This is exactly the sort of tangle she is so good at sorting out; or at least finding a good way to express the complexity in a clear way. Mind if we leave things as they are until she has a chance to chime in? I'll leave a note on her talk page.4meter4 (talk) 09:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * No worries – There is no deadline. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

This kind of gentle, thoughtful, measured discourse is no way to conduct matters of Eastern European nationalities and borders on WP ;-)  almost - instinct 09:07, 20 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree. This is waaaay too civilized.:-) Anyhow, when I'm faced with these situations I generally leave out the "foo-ish" nationality from the lede, relate the facts, note conflicting views in the sources, and let the reader decide. However, I did find this in the liner notes to Lebendige Vergangenheit: Claire Dux (Preiser Records):


 * "Claire Dux was born on 2 August 1885 in Witkowicz, a small town near Bromberg (now Bydgoszcz) in the formerly Prussian province of Posen (now Pozna in western Poland). However, it would not be correct to consider her a Polish soprano, as some writers did in her obituaries: she was of strictly German parentage."


 * Incidentally, the above has a lot of interesting biographical information on her. For one thing, the Chicago meat packer was her third husband. Also, in this US newspaper article, from 1922, she is described as:
 * "...a truly cosmopolitan artist She born on Polish territory and her ancestry represents several nationalities [...] her mother being related to Clara Schumann"


 * Voceditenore (talk) 07:28, 21 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I also came across those liner notes and intend to use them and other material for some additional details, some quite fascinating, e.g. this Dali painting.
 * I very much agree with your suggestions about presenting the facts and letting the reader decide, but I fear someone will insist on a category, however ill-fitting; see e.g. Talk:Pauline Anna Milder-Hauptmann. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:26, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you voceditenore for the helpful suggestions and to you Michael for the excellent expansion. I wouldn't be opposed to listing her in multiple opera singer cats by nationality, but none is also ok by me. What do you all think?4meter4 (talk) 14:10, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, in cases like this, I've put them in multiple categories. Michael's right, sooner or later someone will insist on a nationality category. In this case, I'd use the two most commonly mentioned in the references (Polish and German). They're basically just finding aids anyway. Voceditenore (talk) 14:29, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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