Talk:Claire Loewenfeld

Tags
I'm going to remove the tags from this, as she seems notable enough. Quite a few mentions on Google books, for example. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 17:08, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Non-notable books by an individual do not demonstrate that subject's notability. I am reinserting the tags. Please see evaluation of existing citations on my talk page. Bongo  matic  23:03, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi BM, did you see the secondary sources referring to her in the link above? Why do you feel that's not enough? SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 23:08, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The Notability tag is for articles that do not demonstrate the notability of the subject. The article doesn't. Neither does a list of Google hits on the associated talk page. Use of the tag is not subject to WP:BEFORE. Rather, it's the opposite&mdash;a request for other editors to help establish the notability of the topic. Hence I find the removal of the tag in favor of search results on the talk page quite odd.
 * I have looked through the list provided and don't see anything that appears at first glance (all I have done at this point) to rise to the level of "significant coverage":
 * Paul Tillich, His Life & Thought: No suggestion of significant coverage.
 * Food technology in Australia: No suggestion of significant coverage.
 * The British Library general catalogue of printed books. Coverage would not establish notability.
 * Journal of the Royal Horticultural Society. No suggestion of significant coverage.
 * New scientist. No suggestion of significant coverage.
 * Rural life in eighteenth-century English poetry. Less than passing mention.
 * Fruit Dishes And Raw Vegetables. Mention in acknowledgements section.
 * The spectator. No suggestion of significant coverage.
 * Frankly, the exercise leads me to consider deletion nomination as I've now done a reasonable amount of WP:BEFORE. Bongo  matic  00:02, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * If you read through the links on Google books, you'll see her called a "distinguished food therapist; she's writing for The Spectator; she's mentioned by New Scientist, and if in addition she really was a founding member of the Soil Association, she's clearly notable (that should be in the lead if it can be sourced). It's just a question now of giving the author(s) of the article time to get the source material added to the page. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 00:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

←The mention as "distinguished" is an acknowledgements in the Forward of a book&mdash;neither independent nor significant. Is impossible for me to determine whether mention in New Scientist is significant or not. Given the insignificant mentions in the British Medical Journal, my presumption is that the reference in New Scientist would be similar. A Google hit (even in Google books) does not establish notability. Bongo  matic  00:47, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Soil Association
Tmol, I just want to check about the reference for this. It's Löewenfeld, Claire. British Medical Journal. Volume 1 (6119), April 22, 1978. Does that say clearly that she was one of the founders? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 15:30, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * SlimVirgin, the words used in the BMJ were 'one of the first members', I have seen founding members but only in one of her books but 'founders' is misleading so will change this. Thanks for all your work tidying this upTmol42 (talk) 16:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response. I'm a little confused about what some of these references are, so just some questions:

1. Footnote 1: is this an article she wrote about rose hips, and the BMJ published it? How long is it, and how is she described?
 * This is a letter she wrote in May 1942 to the BMJ Editor responding to an earlier report in the BMJ on Vitamin C from Rosehips. There is no specific description of herTmol42 (talk) 18:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The footnote says the date was June 26, 1941. Should that be May 1942? SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 19:05, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

2. Footnote 4: the Soil Association reference in the BMJ: again, is that an article she wrote, and how is she described exactly?
 * This was a short tribute to her and her work published in the BMJ sometime after her death and probably would have coincided with the postumus publication of her last book by Gunther et al. The following is an extract describing her:

''Claire Loewenfeld, who died in August 1974, was one of the first members of the Soil Association, reintroduced the use of flavouring herbs in Britain, and worked out a vegetable and fruit juice diet for children with coeliac disease at Great Ormond Street Hospital. A protagonist of natural vitamins, and a sturdy campaigner against processed foods and the health hazards of added chemicals...'' Tmol42 (talk) 18:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

3. Footnotes 8 and 9: The Times references (a) footnote 8, "Fruit from the hedgerows - Vitamins in Rose Hips," The Times, August 29, 1941, and (b) footnote 9, "Vitamins in Rose Hips," The Times, October 4, 1941. Are these articles she wrote, or letters to the editor, and what are the bylines? Again, how is she described?


 * Both of these are short articles written by unattributed Times Staffers which included references to CR letters by her and described her work with Rosehips and Vitamin C which had been taken up by Government who subsequently sponsored leaflets to be produced for schools and hospitals which had been authored and over 900 of these were distributed by her to such institutions between Aug and october 1941. NB these references also overlap in time somewhat with the BMJ references and this sudden interest also coincided with the Government promoting the 'dig for victory' and improvement in public health campaigns.Tmol42 (talk) 18:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

SlimVirgin talk| contribs 16:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Some other questions: do we know the correct way to write her name? So far as I know, it should be Loewenfeld (oe) or Löwenfeld (o umlaut), but not both, because o umlaut = oe. Or it could be Lowenfeld, which would be an anglicized version.
 * The original/ correct spelling of her name is Loewenfeld. As this was wartime there were issues about having a German-sounding names and in the telephone directories of the time it is spelt in most cases Lowenfeld, reverting back to Loewenfeld after the war.Tmol42 (talk) 18:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It's written in the article with an umlaut. Should that be removed? SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 19:05, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, it would be good to know about her background: where born and raised, maiden name. We know something here about her husband's family but not about her own. Also, what was the underground movement that she was part of in Germany? Did it have a name? The article about Tillich doesn't seem to mention it. I've e-mailed the Soil Association, by the way, to ask if they know anything about her early relationship with it. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 16:46, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So far I have drawn a total blank on her birth place, nationality and maiden name. I have started to follow these issues up with people who know her when she was living in Buckinghamshire but to be frank hoped having posted the article it might stimulate some new infomation coming to light.
 * On the 'underground' movement, this is work in progress too and so far I am relying on the translation of the German text but what I have surmised so far is that the Protestant Christian Community in Berlin and elsewhere in Germany during the 1930s had become increasingly opposed to the Nazis policies and academic theologians such as Tillich and others who spoke out publicly or wrote pamphlets against the Nazi's were arrested or persued and had to go underground. I believe the community continued to protest but eventually (1935/6/7ish) under incresing persecution the principals at least had no alternative but to escape from the persecution by leaving Germany for Switzerland. Prominant members such as Tillich were helped out of Germany. NB As we know the Loewenfeld family line had a Jewish ancestry even if they were not all still practicing the religion and I believe Gunther's aunt, for one, died at Auschwitz.
 * Claire was a Vegetarian by the way according to the Lisa Gobell book but I have not included this so far in the article.
 * I also just found an academic article published in the Arch. Dis. Child in 1951 by two Drs at Great Ormond St Hospital which includes a credit to Claire for her assistance etc on their research during the 1940s and provides extensive details of Claire's special diets for treating Children with Coeliac desease. Tmol42 (talk) 18:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks for the responses. The new article sounds interesting. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 19:05, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Couple more questions: (1) Where did you get her date of birth? (2) the source for the Protestant group and her helping is this, but the only mention of her name I can find says she was a housemate of someone (not clear who), and that she didn't want Tillich to leave. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 19:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (1) Date take directly from gravestoneTmol42 (talk) 20:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Name
The Tillich source says she was born Lewisohn. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 19:27, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * * Apart from New York this family name seems to surface in Belin, Hamburg and also in Poland. I will do some checks on Ancestry.comTmol42 (talk) 20:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC) (P.S.) Not sure how that 'Ludwig' crept in with my inadvertant re-edit of your post!Tmol42 (talk) 21:43, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * No worries. :) SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 22:59, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Gunther Loewenfeld
Hi SlimVirgin, I saw you had added in that Gunther was a Horticulturist and reading your posts above noticed you referred to there being some further sources about him. All I have found so far is that he was involved, once living in the UK, in doing some translation work in the 1950s and that there was a GL listed as authoring a text on "The instruction in law and traffic" in 1922 (Die Anweisung in Gesetz und Verkehr ). Not exactly very revealing but I could not find a listing as a Horticulturist, except if one counts him being a partner in the Herb Farm. Can you help?Tmol42 (talk) 21:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's in one of the sources that discusses Chiltern Herb Farm. I'll find it again and add it. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 21:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Safe passage
Do we have a source for this (with page numbers)?

"While there, she was associated with an underground Protestant movement opposed to the Nazi regime. The group included Paul Tillich, a German-American theologian who was forced to emigrate to the U.S.; the Loewenfelds helped find safe passage for Tillich and his family, who eventually settled in the U.S."

The part of the source that I've been able to read on Google books doesn't say this, at least not that I can see, though Google books unfortunately hides a lot of material. If it does say it, which page is it on? See Tillich, Paul; Albrecht, Renate; and Hahl, Margot. Ein Lebensbild in Dokumenten, Walter de Gruyter, 1980. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 21:37, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I have had another go at translating the relevant text and have also done a search of related texts on Tillich. I agree that neither the phrase associated with an underground Protestant movement or the Loewenfelds helped find safe passage for Tillich and his family, who eventually settled in the U.S are substantiated by this cite. There was clearly a strong friendship and trust between Tillich and the Loewenfelds which started at least in 1933 as there was some level of discussion between Claire and Tillich in 1932/3 about him either staying or leaving Germany. However, the tie up does not seem to centre on shared religious beliefs, rather that they were socially connected in some way - living close by or politically(?). Their association is brielfy reflected in Tillich's Travel Diary and this element could be developed further in the article as there are several brief but interesting accounts of their time together in Italy. If you agree will I will try out some new text in the next day or so to reflect this. Meantime I will stike out the two sentences concerned. I see there are several biographies/ accounts of Tillich's life and also a controversial one by his wife Hannah which might refer to Claire and Gunther but I'm not sure where to access these easily at the moment.Tmol42 (talk) 00:30, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Claire and her husband seem to have been housemates of the others, either of Tillich or of some other members of the social circle. The source we were using said Claire was one of the people who thought Tillich should not leave Germany, because he had so much to offer it. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 00:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I hesitated to say any more strongly than 'living close by' the Tillichs but it was my sense that they might be living in the same house. Claire's views on Tillich staying in Germany seem to be qualified by the word 'initially'. From other accounts of conditions in Berlin, life rapidly got very tough very quickly in just a few months of 1933.Tmol42 (talk) 00:45, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Tillich diary
In case it's helpful, these are the references to Claire in Tillich's 1936 diary:


 * April 22

Later, in a tea room, I meet Dr. Adler. He had been arrested in the Kuessel, then went to Prague, and is now working at a country school in England ... He tells me that Claire behaved extremely well; that the Pincusses want to go to Russia, and the Loewenfelds are en route to Syria.


 * May 22

The situation in Palestine is very bad. Claire had to stay in the hotel during their entire time in Jerusalem. They could visit the Dead Sea only under police escort.


 * July 19

As I arrive at the [Pordoi] Pass, there is Claire in a yellow dress; also Guenther and the children. They have come to call for me in the hotel car. Claire is very pretty. Guenther has aged a little. He wants to address me in the formal "you" form. I immediately call him "thou."

... On the terrace, Sunday coffee is served, and a band plays. I change and come down. Suddenly the hotel station wagon arrives and brings M. L., who had gone to Franzensfeste with Elisabeth in order to make use of her ticket and has now come here by a different route. Coffee with Claire and M. L. Down below, there is a tennis tournament.


 * July 20

I wake to a wonderful day; warm but not hot. Breakfast on the terrace. All around me, many cute ‘fashion-kittens," some wearing bathing suits. Loewenfelds are having breakfast on their balcony. Conversation with Guenther who, much like Frede, wants to separate politics from spirit and religion ...

We take a beautiful walk through the meadows while Claire and Guenther report most interestingly on Palestine. Everyone is fighting everyone else there. The capitalistic Jews in Tel Aviv, the Jewish communes (kibbutzim) which are turning Palestine with its subterranean waters into a second California; the Mohammedan Arabs who attack all Christians; the Christian Arabs who are full of hatred against the Jews; the English who always prevaricate, but finally stepped in vigorously on the side of Jewish capitalism; the Jewish proletariat, extremely powerful and dangerous. Guenther is optimistic for the Jews because the English need Jewish capitalism. Claire sees no solution: she feels that the Arabs are being treated unfairly. While in Palestine, Claire and Guenther were in constant danger of their lives. Once, the only thing that saved them was their Arab guide saying they were German Nazis. Hitler is the big man with the Arabs. Mussolini gives them money to spite the British. The Communists are severely persecuted. It is a witches’ cauldron in which everything is reflected. Only Englishmen are permitted to bear arms. The Jews have founded a self-protective organization which keeps a cache of arms for emergency purposes. All the men in the settlements must do guard duty at night.

Dinner with red Capri. Long conversations, later alone with Claire, about various tensions. Claire rejects the dogmatic ties with Communism, feels unable to decide; nothing really appeals to her at the moment. Guenther’s position is generally critical; he gives an excellent objective analysis. He thinks the German economy is changing from private capitalism to state capitalism. Private capital, he says, is being eliminated through forced government loans. There is no more credit. An economic catastrophe is not to be expected, though; at best the standard of living might go down. As for international politics, he believes that Europe will fall prey to Hitler without a fight for a long time to come, until somewhere, in some unexpected place, war will break out. Without that war, he says, the United States of Europe remain unthinkable. I agree heartily with all this. Guenther travels a great deal throughout Europe, which gives him an excellent overall view.

Fiftieth-birthday waltz with Claire and M. L.; on top of it all, Asti Spumante, confetti, and paper balls. I say good-by to M. L. who is being taken down by one of the men in her pensione.
 * July 22


 * July 23

I get up at six and pack, then have my last breakfast on the terrace in radiant weather. Say good-by to the children; ride down with Guenther and Claire; say good-by to Guenther and Claire. I have only just begun to feel close to Guenther. He is intelligent, very objective, and infinitely good.

SlimVirgin talk| contribs 00:51, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pulling these across here I had tagged them but it helps having them in one place. What did you make of the July 20th last sentence, remark
 * "Guenther travels a great deal throughout Europe, which gives him an excellent overall view"
 * It almost tempts one to read something into this which is probably not there!Tmol42 (talk) 01:10, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Tillich did have a reputation with the ladies, so what is probably not there very well might be. :) SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 01:21, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I have had a first go at incorporating a couple of elements of the dary in the article, welcome some review and reworking.Tmol42 (talk) 23:38, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

AfD on this Article
The AfD on this article (see above also) was, from the ensuing discussion, designated a Keep when it was withdrawn by the AfD nominator. The archived record of the discussion can be found here and contains some useful further references to be followed up.Tmol42 (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)