Talk:Clairsentience

fair enough
its a fair point...... but why oh why did i do so much fulfilling all of the wikpedia guidlines for personal content, editting style , correct sourcing and referencing , wiki formatting etc .....months tireless work on an article which was to be so casually consigned to the dustbin.......Thesource42 18:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

however much i respect your views, a redirect to the clairvoyance article would however be entirely meaningless... one is not exchangeable for the other...  like cheese isn`t milk etc.....

covering the groundwork general background to establish a context for understanding extra sensory phenomena in general needed to be done and it might as well happen at the Clairsentience page for now.....

the reason i did it there was because fundamental doubts were being expressed about my earliest article`s conents were concerned implicitly announcing that the background for understanding extra sensory phenomena in general had not been done.... which was ... as remember saying to you a few weeks ago   the frustrating context which motivated the writing of the second article with all of its references to the background research of brennan, lylle , mckenna , bohm , wilber , sheldrake   etc......because this background had to be established before any specifics about clairsentience could even be begun to be aproached  ....... thus the many weeks days and months of toil which has been endured to even get this background matereal into a wikpedia format and guidlines shape  ......  all of which criterea have been met  .... or at leasst  were until the finished product was mindlessly deleted...

the new additional altered states matereal was a tentative beginning into finding a context for tentatively describing the specifics of the clairsentience phenomena itself...

but, agian it was trashed with no thought or care....

childish redirect
(the article presently on the main Clairsentience page .. if it stays there for 5 minutes ... is the old first draft before months of work was childishly trashed and a meaningless redirect to the clairvoyance page put in its place...Thesource42 17:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

the playground games continue...

ive posted this on the clairvoyance talk page after someone completely removed the clar#irsentience article which had gone through a process of months of work, rewrites , endless discussion , removasl of personal matereal , edits for style and content .... endless work on correct sourcing and wikpedia referencing and formatting..... the article which had been arrived at with co operation and discussion over many weeks and v man who himself put some hours into grammer , punctuation ... re editting for stlye and content ... and much help in correct sourcing and referencing .....Thesource42 17:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

this article was the sum of many peoples input, effort and hard work  so i dont know how or who removed it so thoughtlessly and put the meaningless redirect to the clairvoyance page... any help would be great.... cheers..Thesource42 17:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Its been restored.
 * Ed 2607:FEA8:483:8E00:E449:C258:32CD:3933 (talk) 15:22, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

hi guys
i see youve redirected the clairsentience article.... let me ask....what was the point of the weeks of discussions and rewrites if you guys were going to redirect it anyway....you should have told me t get lost out of here...... what was the point of it all? why did i listen to you ? at all? why did i remove all personal references? why did i reference and source all of my matereal diligently and in great detail ? why did i edit and re edit for style and content ? why did i make additional references to religios, anthropological ,socialogical , philosophical ,medical , physics , chemistry , botany , mental health etc so that all views were included and respected? why did i fulfill all of the above hurdles and hoops to fulfill wikpedia formatting and guidlines for you too to delete months of hard work and effort. your actions are without integrity or honour .....

clairsentience article redirect ?
Hi ..... whoever removed the clairsentience article and made it redirect ... can you please try and respect that the article that was there had evolved over a couple of months of discussion and many rewrites and multiple edits which involved much discussion over a long period...... .........i could delete this clairvoyance article.... but i wont because revert and delete wars then stupidly take place  which is a real shame when a library becomes a bar room brawl......

..... i hope you can respect the clairsentience article...

..... ive been clairsentient for most of my adult life and it wasnt easy to come this far and to struggle for decades to articulate my experience in a way which makes rational sense to the world at large of which the clairsentience article is a manifest example..... so please try and respect the vast amount of struggle and work which has gone into it....                                                                                                                                                           I would like to take a moment to say thanks to this person for the research done. I cannot tell you what it means to me to find that there are others like myself. My entire life I have lived with this double edged sword. Glad to know I am not alone. Blessed be. respectfully,                                                            NeferKa

First draft of clairsentience article
The following piece of reasearch was done by Tim Crosby who was both the subject, with the condition known as clairsentience , and also the researcher who , much like research chemists in former times , on the edge of new discoveries , used themselves as white mice in white coats to test a new as yet untried compound.

He developed a philosophical aproach over 15 years of research which he found indispensable given the nature of the study area he was exploring. unlike empirical science which hopes to measure the matereal world and then to gradually reach understandings of its workings through repeated testing, the mind and its contents apears to be a somewhat more slippery fish. Descartes after many years of dedicated reasoning came to the conclusion that no one could prove beyond a doubt that anything coming into the self via the senses could be proved to be objectively existant including measurments, graphs ; other people`s research etc ; the whole external world , and as ethnobotanist terence mckenna put it , " you are at the centre of the only universe you will ever know ".

This pre amble is necessary when coming at the word clairsentience in a way which does justice to the nature of the self/reality which is implicit in its existence as a concept but also its very meaning which is embedded in human culture at large. The word itself pre supposes both a self ; a supra higher dimesional sense world and implicitly, a group of senses and sense organs of a new more highly developed nature.

For the most complete and detailed research in this area i suggest one takes a long look at the work of ex nasa scientist barbara brennan who after a research post at nasa exploring the nature of electromagnetic fields, later developed higher sense perception to a very advanced level. Her work in this area is pre eminent and gives a broader and deeper understanding on the relationships of higher sense perception including, clairaudience , clairvoiance , claircognisance and of course clairsentience ; and their relationship to higher worlds / dimensions of the universe and self.

for more information go to http://www.barbarabrennan.com/

Her aproach contextualises these newly discovered layers of reality within the framework of the holographic theory of the universe suggested by pysicist Dr. David Bohm in his book " the implicate order " in which he calls the manifest reality " the explicate enfolded order ", in which, " parts are seen to be in immediate connection , in which their dynamical relationships depend in an irreducible way on the state of the whole system......Thus, one is led to a new notion of unbroken wholeness which denies the classical idea of analyzability of the world into seperately and independantly existent parts." and also The Morphagenic field theory ( from morph, "form ", and genesis , " coming into being. " ) of Rupert Sheldrake which is explored more fully in his book "A New Science of Life ".

The action of this field involves " action at a distance " in both space and time. Rather than form being determined by physical laws outside of time, it depends on morphic resonance across time. This means that morphic fields can propagate across space and time and that past events could influence other events everywhere else.

An example of this is shown by Lyall Watson in his book, " Lifetide: The Biology of Consciousness ", in which he describes what is now popularly called the Hundredth Monkey Principle. Watson found that after a group of monkeys learned a new behaviour, suddenly other monkeys on other islands with no possible " normal " means of communication learned that behaviour , too.

Barbara brennans exaustive work in this area gives a broad and highly detailed context for understanding unusually developed senses and perhaps a new understanding of other mechanisms in the universe whereby knowledege, feelings , thoughts and other objects in time and space , might travel across boundaries , for example between bird and tree ; between monkey and monkey or between human and human via a connectedness previously thought not to exist.

As Robert Anton Wilson so aptly put it, " any technology or science sufficiently far removed from ones own will be percieved as magic" , and much like the idea of new and emergent higher facilities which are explored to dramatic effect in the three X Men films , the idea of a new emerging higher state of consciousness is being discussed by integrated philosophers such as Ken Wilber , whereby the next stage of human evolution is not to be a physical innovation as our relative matereal comfort and sedantary lives suggest , but will be one of the mind.

Just as roaming homonids, with a culture which didn`t change one bit for millenia , were replaced by homo sapiens , with their art , religion , language etc , for whom culture now was so varied that it could be differentiated by an explosion of creativity , which is characterised by the highly individual designs of their hand axes and countless other artifacts which are found to be different from one valley to the next across the entire planet; so , the next leap of human development will perhaps be just as huge and qualatively different.Thesource42 17:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

cultural references
The X Men, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men

Star Trek Next Generation In which Diana Troy is Ship`s Empath or Clairsentient. ( see, above the Robert Anton Wilson Quote ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Next_Generation

I Heart Huckabees. film. for amusing references to the holographic theory of the universe.

article re written re posted with better formatting
its up on the integral wiki site where it has happily stayed in its present form for several weeks..published also in several online magazines ... mandrake speaks oxford publishing house...etc

http://integralwiki.net/index.php?title=Clairsentience —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thesource42 (talk • contribs) 15:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

new leaf
hi V man737..... thankyou  heartily  .. for doing a wiki job on my piece  .....  the confusing thing ive found is that  this  wiki  has some rather peculiar  regulations and conventions with regards to style   and  flavour  which other wikis do not  ....  but i think you are more fully  emersed in the very particular culture  and  general aproach here , so i thank you again for translating my article  into  wiki speak  .......  i think also  i was given more time and space on other wikis to  learn  sourcing  and the  bits  of  code needed to  make  the article  look right  etc  .....  wikipedia  can  be  rather pressured  ........  the  bits  of  grammer  i could  have  chasnged  given  a  little  patience but  i  am  glad    and  very  greatful  you`ve spend  the  time  weeding  them  out  ........ i am  very  happy  that  personal  refrences have been  removed   but agian  certain  editorial  remarks  are  much  more  accepted  in  other  wikis  than here    but  i am  happy  that  this version now qualify`s  for  wikpedialand  and  hopefully  will stay  here  now  as  a  landmark  for anyone  wanting to  research  extrasensory  perception  or  the  new  pradigms  of  thinking  breaking  across  many  sisciplinesd  from  philosophy  to  physics  ......Thesource42 14:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

very good new title
very much like the new  " paradigm of clairsentience title".. i think it captures the spirit of the piece wonderfully ... well done!!! thankyou. Thesource42 18:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

omnipresent
hi guys ... very good point..... "higher "is only a word to attempt to describe something which is quite other..... in fact " additional" might be better ... in the sense that the eight bodies of the human architecture each one aligned at each chackra wheel and another at another octave above being the core star " self " ..... " self" being, in this sense unlike the more conventional and static concepts of self one might be more familiar with  ...  the core star being more like source connection to unmanifest source... and all " lower" or more finite forms being manifestations of the source at each level / octave of existance finally manifesting as a finite physical body/vehicle  inhabited by each individual personification / dance of finite relative qualities of expression .....  say colourful , creative , mucsical , poetic , adventurous  etc.....

this is becoming science fact at barbara brennans unversities....have a read of her book .. hands of light ... it pretty much covers where eastern mystics were coming from but in the words of a western scientifically trained mind .... very cool stuff.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thesource42 (talk • contribs) 03:45, 3 March 2007 (UTC).


 * I've read her books. Yes, very cool.  But whatever concepts we end up with, we are perhaps several centuries away from it being scientifically accepted.  Wikipedia toes the line totally on what is scientifically accepted now, so if you go beyond that it will eventually get deleted by someone.  Martinphi  (Talk Ψ Contribs) 23:39, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

citation query for the term "self"
i thiink ,nevertheless, that asking for a citatiob for proof of the existence of self is a bit excessive .... i would have to reference the entire pholosphy , religion , mysticism sections of wikpedia....

or of course we could take the reductionist bilogist route by which we are defined as bags of meat and chemicals who`1s sole purpose is to insert our penis into a woman to perpetuate our genes... in this rather narrow scenario... there is no self and all of human thought and culture are superfluous bi products of an over sized brain... andf in this context, all of scientific knowledge , all human philosophy , all technology the entire internet including wikpedia is a meaningless bi product of the over active homo sapien brain....

i dont think this view however leads anywhere meaningful and for now we must use the terms which are in common useage and for now, treat human thought and culture with some respect and integrity...

the term "self" has a thousand nuances of meaning just like the word " love" ... but for our purposes, self merely denote , a meaningful organism or conscousnes who is recieving and experiencing the information coming in through our senses both mundane and extraordinary.. for this use the word in common useage is, " self" ..Thesource42 17:27, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

citation query for higher realms sensed by higher sense organs etc
simply put..... if the mundane senses with olfactory, rods and cones , lenses , litle bones in the ears , ear drums etc were the organs through which extrasensory experience was primarily being experienced , then everybody would be doing it , it would be commonplace and we wouldnt ber having this discussion .... it is however a ver extraordinary phenomena and so we have to look at the extraordinary matereal surrounding this highly unusual experience  and then try and draw some tentative conclusions... just as an  anthropologist might....

so we can see that, in general empirical scientific method from a reductionist biologists perspective all of this is superfluous including the existence of wikpedia (note- not all biologists are of a reductionist mode of aproach) ; a physics perspective , wherein the whole universe and all of space /time is one interconnected thing including all biological lifeforms ; a ethnosocialogical view where each community , culture and tribe have their own model for understanding reality ; anthropology where the reality of indigeonous trobes of variious continents have reality model which is much more fluid , dreamlike , connected with nature and influenced by the shaman who`s visions on hallucinagenic substances form the basis of philosophy and reality model for the rest of the tribe , just like moses ten commandments and jesus` "love thy neighbour" form the starting point for law and order and the social organisation of much of the western world...(see wikpedia in general for all of the above stements regarding the various scientific perspectives , including , bilogy , physics ,sociology , anthropology , ethnobotany , philosophy , religion , demographics on global belief systems etc)Thesource42 17:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

in this context where most of the western world claims to be christian and much of the reast of humanity on planet earth has some spiritual beliefs of one kind or another, i dont think that to suggest that a higher sense operates in a higher plane/ mechanism for transmission , is going all that far ..... in fact, its a pretty conservative statement...Thesource42 17:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

further discussion of terms like " higher" and " self"
hi guys....had a few more new thoughhts on the word " higher "... it was indeed used by hippies to express the higher spiritual reality  they were accessing with psychadelic / shamanic drugs  and eastern meditational practices.... also  it  was used heavily in disco  music and later dance music  " i got to get you higher "  etc  which  expressed the  high state  people got into through esctatic dancing , much like rumi and the whirling sufi dervishes and the shakers  ... and obviously the shamanic dancing and drumming of african tribes etc  from which via the cotton fields came  gospel ,soul , blues , reggai, rock and roll and thereaFTER all of western pop and rock music  , including the  only truly original american art for , Jazz........  this beat   was the  soul shamanic root which western culture had so desperately needed and has been a healing and cathartic process in our world ever since..

the rastafaRIAN USE OF THE phrase " i and i "  ...  expresses  both selves  ... i, individual small self and  also I ,source  god self.....  again , the word self  is  our closest aproximation for a concept beyond words...

the use of marijuana in rastafarianism has become a sacred rite , much like shamanic substances such is Iboga and ayuhasca which are now being used in christian ceremonies in south america.... and much like the  intoxication and visionary excstacy of dionisian rites , the  ellusian mysteries of crete; and later , those of william blake ,coleridge (  "in xanadu did kubla kahn decree" etc ), tom wolf , ken kesey , jack kerouac , allen ginsberg , timothy leary , john lennon ,  the byrds , terence mckenna , ram dass etc .... the list goes on ..... in fact its  mckennas assertion  that  an  archaic revival is and has been taking place wherein  the  tribal  rituals and attitides of our long distant shamanic past are emerging spontaneously in our culture such as rythmic dancing , drumming , visionary excsatacy with plants and hallucinogenic compounds , earth religions , environmental concerns  etc ............ which all taken together are the neceassary medicine for our out of balance over rational culture who are so discoinnected from nature and eachother that we may be creating our own environmental  catastrophe....Thesource42 18:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

3 contexts for understanding extra sensory perception
further to our continued discussions i have included a new section called " Altered states ", to broaden the context in which extra sensory perception is understood.... it is i hope presented in a neutral way ... so that a curious researcher might follow their own line of enquiry in an agnostic aproach whether one takes the mental health model ; an anthopologists ; a biologist ; a chemist ; a psychologist ; a sociologist ;a priest; a yoga practitioner; a new age workshop leader; a media studies student ; a psychiatrist ; a journalist ; a cultural industries worker ; a nurse ; a mental health charity worker ; a doctor in general practice ; a rock music jounalist etc  ....Thesource42 20:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

let me tell you something about science
" Wikipedia toes the line totally on what is scientifically accepted now, so if you go beyond that it will eventually get deleted by someone."

The kind of " science " you`re talking about is the kind of half thought through hand me down versions of reductionist biology and newtonian mechanics which doesnt add up to much and has become largely redundant as applied science these days.

Eg. SpaceTime for Einstein is one thing, one object ... bizarre eh... and that`s applied science and has been for some time.... when he came up with E=Mc squared ... they told him he was nuts.... your crazy maan,,,  thats wacko that is..... but , he told them , neverthless, to go down to a small island in the southern hemisphere on a particular day and to watch an eclipse of the sun.....which they dutifully did , no doubt in order to prove this upstart university drop out ,patent clerk to be the fool he quite patently must be.....

To there suprise as the moon entirely covered the sun a corona of light apeared, coming "round " the moon........ light bends round an object with large mass/gravity etc.....  "light bends"  !!!" space is curved" !!! thats crazy, nutso.... its magic isnt it....... but he was proved right ..... there and then.... more crazy stuff...in a black hole , there is an "event horizon" ...wgere all "events" end... and we`re not talking events like going to the shops , or a football match ..... we`re talking space , time and light end ...... time ? LIght !!!! ... yes light and time are sucked into black holes ..... thats insane isnt it? Well no, it`s applied science , and has been for some time .... some of the uk`s and most of Frances nuclear energy has been humming away for half a century now ...... etc , etc , etc  ....

if you accelerate a particle towards the speed of light the energy put into accelerating it, as it gets closer to the speed of light doesnt go into its velocity anymore .. because nothing can go past the speed of light ... so instead, it goes into the mass of the particle which gets larger and larger the more energy is put into accelerating it and the closer it gets to the speed of light...... this is a repeatable experiment well known by scientists who have worked at or read the research done at particle accelerators in europe and noth america....

what im saying is...... the people who think they are " scientists" are usually not sxcientists at all and are not in the least aware of the shifting paradigms of modern scientific thought and usually are carrying throwbacks to newtonian mechanics which model they dumbly apply everywhere, from biology to psychology.....

and einstien is old news now.... light can be both a particle a single photon and a wave at the same time..... this experiment is repeatable with some fairly basic equipment.... we did it in physics class at school in 1982.....

i think anyone who wants me to give a citation for use of the word "self" might as well ask me for proof of the validity of the words "the", "and" , "it ", "is , "was" etc...... im not talking rocket science....or metaphisics  ......  the "I" , in " I went to the shops" will suffice........Thesource42 00:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

in case anybody hadnt noticed
Truth or the definition of reality is not the sole privince of science otherwise, here at wikpedia , there would not be thousands of entries under philosophy , religion , spiritual practice , new age theories, mysticism , art , poetry , politics , music , pop music , rock music , literature , and a thousand and one other expressions of the global culture and cultures at large.... all of whom are describing and articulating a thousand nuances and perspectives on truth and the nature of reality all across this very large web site and virtual library....... if this was a specialised science archive this would be another matter  ......  but its not  ..... its a storehouse of knowledge of endless types and variations  .....  even within science there are a thousand variations and viewpoints .... from ethnobotany  to sociology to biolgy to physics , biochemistry , quantum physics , astronomy   , environmentalism, conservationism  , sustainable technology , atmospherics, meterology, etc....... no single science school has the definitive answer  ..

for example .... brain specialists and biochemists have no idea what consciousness is.........a biologist cant tell you why william blake said the things he said and most certainly cant point to the part of the brain where intuition or a sense of justice or freedom live..... etc.....perhaps only a poet or an artist can express such things which are truths of the most profound kind and speak of realities dear to the human soul....no reductionist philosophy can take this away from us......

the matereal i have presented on the article page is however entirely nuetral and open to debate or interpretation from anyone from any perspective, academic discipline or culture..Thesource42 02:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Redirect
I didn't redirect the article. What I said is that it probably should be. I'm happy that you're getting in there and editing and learning the ropes, but my personal opinion is that it should be redirected, and that is based on the idea that what's there is mostly about alternate states of consciousness and reality, and not really about the extrasensory clairsentience. I don't think there's enough published material to write an article just about clairsentience and that it should just be a subsection of ESP or another page. 90% of the clairsentience article was laying the groundwork for a state of reality where clairsentience could be real. That's fine, but it had very little had to do with clairsentience itself. The content about altered states of reality, etc. should probably go in an altered states of reality article instead of this particular article. I didn't, however, redirect it. -- Nealparr  (yell at me 17:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You wrote: "but why oh why did i do so much fulfilling all of the wikpedia guidlines for personal content, editting style , correct sourcing and referencing , wiki formatting etc.. but , agian it was trashed with no thought or care"


 * That's Wikipedia, my friend. Only those that are a glutton for punishment and no appreciation stick around : ) I like the philosophy of Wikipedia, where it's information from a lot of different people expressed in a consensus. That's why I stick around. But you really have to suspend any thought of personal ownership of your writings, or that anyone might appreciate your contributions, in order to be a Wikipedia "editor". That's the sad part of it. That's why I both write here and keep a blog. Here I present facts. Over there I present opinions.


 * Speaking of which, and this is just opinion, you mentioned "bohm, wilber" in your list of people who might support clairsentience or the kind of universe that can have clairsentience. Bohm and the Holographic Universe, definitely. I don't think Ken Wilber would support the idea, however. Wilber's model is of increasing holarchies. On the manifest physical level, he supports and agrees with traditional physics, which wouldn't include clairsentience. Maybe on the transpersonal and upper holarchies, but he would probably say that those levels are above the physical world. In fact, in one of the books I have around here (forget the title), he actually addresses Bohm's Holographic model and refers to it as flatland pantheism, something he doesn't agree with because it collapses the holarchy on which most of his theories are based. Where Bohm's model rejects current models of the universe, Wilber's includes but transcends them, never negating them.
 * -- Nealparr  (yell at me 20:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thesource42, I think that what you say in the article is very interesting, and if I had such senses, I might say it was true. It would be really good though if you took a look at a print encyclopedia.  Just a regular one, with real books.  Of course, Wikipedia can be larger than those, but it can't be much different in terms of content.  I think you need to get your information out where people can read it.  But I think Wikipedia isn't the place for this.  I think you should get a website of your own.  Then, you can publish all that you wish, and no one will give you trouble.


 * The article as it is constitutes an argument for a world view which would allow clairsentience. What it needs to change into is a history of clairsentience, plus other facts which relate directly to the subject.  Most of what is here needs deletion.  As Nealparr says, this isn't anything against you or your ideas.  That's just Wikipedia.  I hope you won't be really unhappy about it.  We can either merge the article with Clairvoyance, or delete most of what is there, where it doesn't relate directly to the subject.  Again, I think you need to publish this- but somewhere else.  And you should know that if what you say is true and this information is right for anyone, they will find it, wherever it is.  You don't have to worry about that.  Martinphi  (Talk Ψ Contribs) 02:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

YES,VIRGINIA,there is clairsentience. I do exist.I am a fact.As a small child adults noticed something they could not explain about this child. She feels things,knows things,senses things.So,you see,I do exist.Glad I am not alone.There's a name for me other than odd. Respectfully yours, NeferKa

do what you like
delete .. merge ... do what you l;ike....

wilber is a mahyana buhdist.... transpersonal is universal "higher self".... in fact, in his words he encourasges people to speak from their higher self on his web forums.....

im past caring ...... none of the view presented in the article are my personal  views .... im standing on the shoulders of giants..... many respected researchers lifes work in fact...

go ahead ... delete it and merge it with your clairvoyance article ..... your territorial pissings dont really interest me any more....

goodbye to you both..Thesource42 04:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Clairsentience and Clairvoyancy not same
Clairsentience article restored. Ed 2607:FEA8:483:8E00:E449:C258:32CD:3933 (talk) 15:17, 20 May 2023 (UTC)