Talk:Clan Donald

Capitalisation
The name should be capitalized for both the M and the D, so it would appear MacDonald


 * While more people bearing this name capitalize the D than leave it lower-case, Macdonald of Macdonald, the high chief of Clan Donald, spells his name and his title with a lower-case D, as do two other chiefs among the five who comprise the High Council of Chiefs of Clan Donald. Also, typical usage in clan-association publications and web sites is "Clan Donald," not "Clan MacDonald." OtherDave 01:00, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I just noticed the mentioned SCoSC website lists the clan as Clan Macdonald of Clan Macdonald (also note the lowercase "d"s). Should this article be renamed to match? Are Clan Macdonald of Clan Macdonald and Clan Donald considered one in the same, or two separate things?--Celtus (talk) 09:40, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Sheriffmuir
The account of this battle is highly misleading, suggesting, as it does, that it was a clash between loyal Campbells and rebel Macdonalds. Although the government army was led by the Duke of Argyll-a career soldier-only part of it was drawn from Clan Campbell. There were also Lowland Scots and some English units. Similarly, Clan Donald formed only a small part of the Jacobite army led by the Earl of Mar. The changes I have made are intended to reflect some of these facts. Rcpaterson 00:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Ambiguous Link
One of the very first links on the page ''MacDonald who is the High Chief of Clan Donald and was the Lord of the Isles. MacDhomnhaill.'' goes to a disambig page, and I couldn't find anything on it which seemed correct. Is there somewhere this is supposed to go instead?--132.174.23.47 21:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Duplicate text
this passage:
 * It was Donald's great grandson, Angus Og who was the 6th Lord of the Isles who sheltered King Robert the Bruce. In recognition of Clan Donalds support King Robert the Bruce proclaimed that Clan Donald would always occupy the honored position on the right wing of the Scottish army.

appears twice in the article. It's in both Wars of Scottish Independence and Lord of the Isles begins. --Marvin talk 17:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I just noticed that myself. The information is valuable, but it doesn't seem like the author really knew where to fit it in. I'm not sure what to do about it, but I think it's fine to leave it there until the article gets a more complete overhaul. An overhaul, I think, it really needs. --Awakeandalive1 14:22, 16 February 2007

Scottish tattoo
I was thinking about getting a Scottish tattoo which relates to my clan only and I was wondering if anyone could help me out because I don’t think this article helped me out enough to determine which clan symbol or crest or whatever is the right one to get for me. My last name is just Donald not Mac Donald or anything else and I would be very much appreciated if someone could help me out by sending me a link in a response to this comment to a photo of the right image of what I’m supposed to get. I think this comment does deserve to be here because this is just the discussion page.


 * It would help if you'd register for Wikipedia, then sign your comments by typing four tildes ( ~ ) . That will put your name and the date and time of your remark.  As it is, no one can send you a link.  Tattoo advice is beyond the scope of Wikipedia in any case.  If it helps, you should know there aren't any clan police, so you can get any tattoo or don whatever tartan appeals to you.  If you identify with Clan Donald, even without any Scots ancestry, have at it.  Try googling "Clan Donald" to find clan-related organizations around the world. — OtherDave 03:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:MacDonaldCrst.gif
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BetacommandBot 04:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

It is Clan Donald rather than Clan MacDonald
The subtitle of your article on Clan Donald is misleading. It lists Clan MacDonald as an alternative name of Clan Donald. Clan Donald is the only appropriate name of the organization of people descended from Donald of Islay. There are hundreds of surnames associated with Clan Donald. MacDonald is one of those names along with many various spellings. The branches of Clan Donald are appropriately named MacDonald of Sleat etc. not clan MacDonald of Sleat. It would be more appropriate to refer to the MacDonald clan if your intent is to clarify the MacDonalds are included in Clan Donald. The confusion is understandable as it is appropriate to refer to Clan Campbell, Clan Chattan, or Clan MacDougall, but when referring to the MacDonald clan please be consistent in using Clan Donald. I made the appropriate changes throughout the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lmcdonald49 (talk • Lmcdonald49 21:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)contribs) 17:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What do you want to rename the articles to? Clan MacDonald of Keppoch to Clan Donald of Keppoch or The MacDonalds of Keppoch?--Celtus 06:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

MacDonald of Keppoch would be the most appropriate. Most of the branches of Clan Donald are titled by their location in Scotland or Ireland so using the surname spelling most common to that area is also more appropriate. Those changes are reflected in the edits I did to the names. One of the branches of Clan Donald is Clanranald and that was already changed by another contributor. Lmcdonald49 17:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Made two corrections that were undone today.
1. "Ranald was the son of Somerled who was killed campaigning against Malcolm IV of Scotland at the Battle of Renfrew in 1164". 'This is poorly worded. It gives the impression Donald's father died in 1164. All Clan Donald histories list his name as Reginald which is the older spelling of Ranald.' from Donald J. Macdonald's CLAN DONALD published in 1978.

2. "Clan Donald shares a descent from Somerled with Clan MacDougall, who trace their lineage from Dougal, the elder son of Somerled." ''This is the Clan MacDougall claim which Clan Donald has disputed for over 900 years. I made the change to show the Clan Donald account that MacDougall's are descended from Reginald's (or Ranald's) son by the same name. Why not at least present both sides of the dispute as I did from Clan Donald histories? People reading the Wikipedia site on Clan Donald deserve to have information from Clan Donald sources'.Lmcdonald49 21:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

How about a compromise?
I made the corrections again that I explained above, but compromised in the spirit of this being a corroborative effort.

I inserted Reginald (the spelling in all Clan Donald histories), but left the information from Highland Clans and the reference.

I changed the confusing wording to make it clear it was Somerled who died in 1164.

I left the reference to Clan MacDougall, but edited the part that contradicts Clan Donald history. That is more appropriately included on the MacDougall site. But I left out the Clan Donald history that provides an alternate Dougal from which MacDougalls come (Reginald's son rather than elder brother).

And I took out controversial interpretation of data from the DNA study rephrasing it to be informative without jumping to the conclusion the study contradicts Clan Donald genealogies. Celtic succession was not paternal as the article stated. The reference cited from Saxons, Vikings, & Celts is misleading in that it leaves the impression Clan Donald has less claim to Somerled than clans MacDougall or MacAllister. For hundreds of years MacAllister was included as a branch of Clan Donald. Because more MacDonalds were included in the study it was misleading to compare percentages. Another way of stating the results would be that more MacDonalds had the genetic marker attributed to Somerled than any other clan. The DNA study indicates a high probability Somerled, or another paternal ancestor of Somerled's descendants now living, was Norse. Gaelic (Celtic) royal succession was not strictly paternal. In fact the ancient Celtic Annals of the Four Masters have several examples of succession through the maternal line.Lmcdonald49 15:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Reginald is just the Latin version of Raghnall, which is Gaelic for Rögnvaldr. And since Ranald is the Anglicisation most commonly used, it should probably be used in the article. The DNA reference is valid as it shows what genealogists have speculated for some time, that Somerled was of Norse descent. With what you've just posted here, you've basically admitted to wanting to remove the percentages and put a spin on the results. The numbers really punch home that Somerled is the ancestor of the clan. It shouldn't be viewed as a competition between MacDougalls, MacAlisters and MacDonalds.--Celtus 06:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

You're right. I didn't like the spin put on the data in the book quoted so I put no spin on it at all in the article!
The point I was trying to make was that a better source for the article on Clan Donald are the histories written by Clan Donald historians. I would compare it to quoting from an autobiography as opposed to a biography. The Clan Donald histories state Reginald with Ranald as another form. I appreciate your explanation of the derivation of the name Ranald. I can see why Ranald is a better form when rendering it into English from the Gaelic.

You're absolutely right I didn't like the spin put on the data in the book cited. The quote from the book was misleading and gave the impression a higher percentage of other clans tested positive for the marker than Clan Donald which was an unwarranted generalization. Again you are right, it is not a competition. In my comments I pointed out how different the same data would appear if another spin were put on it that included numbers instead of percentages. I did not put that information in the article because I believe the article should be as free as possible of "spin". It had the spin before I edited it.Lmcdonald49 15:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)67.166.110.62 04:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * But it would have been OK if the percentages had shown that MacDonald men had the Somerled DNA signature in higher proportions than the other surnames? It seems petty to not include it just because the MacDonalds have a lower percentage than the other names. Sykes is a professor from Oxford, you'd think he'd be well aware of the danger of distorted conclusions when working from a small sample.--Celtus 08:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Ranald is the name most familiar to myself.

I'm not sure what the point of all this DNA stuff is anyway It's not as though anyone is claiming that every single MacDonald is descended on a bloodline from Somerled. To do so would be as absurd as thinking All English people were descended from the royal family.

Apart from that I am not aware of any great controversy of clan Donald being a branch of Somerled's family tree. Is there any???

GlencoeMacDonald —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.93.228 (talk) 12:13, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Its about the origins of the clan appearing to be Norse instead of the traditional Gaelic ancestry. It has nothing to do with ppl pretending that all MacDonalds are related, or anything like that. The percentages just show that a sizeable chunk share the same ancestor, and this ancestor is considered the founder of the clan. Obviously there isn't a conspiracy of any controversy. You can see by this talk page, and the article's history, that one user had a problem with the fact that a higher percentage of MacDougalls and MacAlisters had the founder's DNA, and that the user didn't want that part included in the article because "it leaves the impression Clan Donald has less claim to Somerled than clans MacDougall or MacAllister". The same user also had a problem with the fact the MacDougalls are considered senior in descent from Somerled (MacDougalls from Dougal son of Somerled; MacDonalds from Donald son of Ranald, younger son of Somerled).--Celtus (talk) 08:48, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

No, my point was that it would be silly to argue the DNA corner. Whiffs just a tad of 3rd Reich science at the best. The obvious counterargument is that ethnicity has little to do with outmoded notions of race and more to do with shared culture. And obviously as the Norse-Gael origin of the clan is not in dispute the genetic developments that have happened since that inception are totally irrelevent... especially given that it's likely that most MacDonalds now live in the diaspora.

The complainant probably hails from the Clan Campbell page... just kidding!

GlencoeMacDonald

The Wikipedia article on Clan Donald is better because of our contributionsLmcdonald49 23:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your additions. I believe it is a better article now than when I first read it. It is good we can disagree without being disagreeable. Lmcdonald49 23:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Massacre
The section on the page seems a little scant and missing some obvious information. I would expect that a mention of the fact that the death warrant on my clan was signed by William of Orange.

As it stands it sounds like they were the victims of a near-random drive-by shooting.

GlencoeMacDonald —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.93.228 (talk) 12:16, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Most of the article suffers like this because its all written in bulleted style. Anyhow follow the link to the actual article. Massacre of Glencoe.--Celtus (talk) 08:52, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Blar na Pairc
Other sources suggest that this battle took place in 1466. Any views?--45ossington (talk) 11:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC) In fact, a quick survey also throws up 1488 and 1491!--45ossington (talk) 11:22, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Septs
The McEacherns have never been a "sept" of Clan Donald. The Court of Lord Lyon does not recognise "septs". Please remove the McEacherns from this section.Amceache (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:54, 23 April 2010 (UTC).
 * I have removed MacEachern as a sept. We are not, never were and never will be a sept of Clan Donald.Amceache (talk) 04:30, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I have this feeling...
We might be related. If you have a look at that online pedigree of Somerled's father I just added to the article, it gives him a descent from Echmarcach mac Ragnaill and Ivar of Waterford. And it's not isolated but can be found in various forms online. It does not appear to be badly done and makes more than plenty of sense.

For this purpose I represent the O'Donovans, and we intermarried with the Limerick and Waterford kingdoms, which can be found in multiple sources, for example in James Henthorn Todd's edition of the Cogad Gáedel re Gallaib. Ivar of Waterford was definitely married to an early Donovan girl. Plus our own rather disorderly pedigrees still manage to make it pretty clear and the number of Raghnalls involved is considerable. Raghnall was of course a favourite name in the Waterford dynasty. If you are in fact a continuation of that dynasty then we are no doubt kin. You might claim an incredibly distant kinship with our own very precious Ímar Ua Donnabáin now, for instance. Or maybe not so incredible. DinDraithou (talk) 05:04, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Information on individual branches of the Clan Donald
I think information regarding the individual branches of the Clan Donald should be kept to their own articles and this article should focus on the main Clan Donald itself. However there are some historical events such as the Massacre of Glencoe and the Jacobite Risings where individual branches of the Clan MacDonald warrant a mention in this article.QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:27, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Gaeil, not Celtic
As the poem cited makes clear, Somerled's ethnicity was Gaeil, not Celtic - "Ceannas Ghàidheal do Chlainn Cholla, còir fhògradh," (The Headship of the Gael to the family of Colla, it is right to proclaim it). I don't object to the terms Celt or Celtic, only that they must be use correctly. Cheers, Fergananim (talk) 17:39, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

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Bizarre wording
" by 1640, less than 2% of Scots were Catholics, concentrated in places like South Uist, controlled by Clanranald but despite its minority status, fear of Popery remained widespread"

Is the word "popery" used in the actual source? This is an archaic, derogatory term for Roman Catholicism and strikes one as unencyclopedic, to say the least.

And is this 2% figure also supported by the source? From what I understand the Scottish Highlands remained heavily Catholic. What was the Highland population at the time?Jonathan f1 (talk) 07:46, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey, you have a good point. I have my suspicions about the editor who added that to the article who claims to have a PHD but time and time again adds things to articles that are dubious to say the least. He only ever quotes books that are not verifiable online which in turn makes it difficult to prove whether or not the info he has added is actually in the source. I would support removing this information and replacing it with something more realistic. Cheers. QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:48, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Battle of Largs
Batle of Largs ended inconclusive. Here it is portrayed as a Scottish victory. That should be altered or removed. Mattamatikk (talk) 12:14, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * You may be right but the current info is as per source and therefore you will need to add a new source to say otherwise. Also, although the battle was inconclusive it can be seen as a tactile victory for Scotland as Norway subsequently ceded control of the Isles.QuintusPetillius (talk) 18:35, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Movement to America
Have you guys noted that a MacDonald fled to America? Because if you didn’t, then, well, I got some news for you. Because one did, I don’t remember his name, but he emmigrated to America to escape legal persecution after he may or may not have committed manslaughter at a house party. The story’s insane too, he literally removed the guys stairs as a prank. Anyway, he left for America, had a kid, and continued on until my dad had me. Which is pretty cool I guess. 173.77.167.192 (talk) 02:13, 8 December 2023 (UTC)