Talk:Clan Duncan/Archive 1

THE DUNCAN'S IN LEDLOWAN IN KILLEARN, AND DRUMMIEKEICH IN STRATHBLANE.
Among the families in Killearn who were not possessed of lands was an old race of the name of Duncan. They were leading people in that parish in the seventeenth century, and though the main line is extinct in the district, there are many families both in Strathblane and elsewhere descended from this good old stock.

John Duncan in Ledlowan, in Killearn, and afterwards in Drummiekeich (part of Blairquhosh Cuninghame), in Strathblane, married in 1703 Elizabeth Graham, one of the large clan in Strathblane which had grown and multiplied since David de Grahame was settled at Mugdock about the middle of the thirteenth century. John Duncan and his wife had three sons, of whom afterwards, and two daughters—Elizabeth, who married in 1740 William Finlay of Moss, and had (1) William of Moss, who was the father of the late William Finlay of Moss, who died childless ; Mrs. James Adair Lawrie, of whose family the eldest son, Archibald Campbell Lawrie, advocate, now of Moss, is a judge in Ceylon; and Mrs. Dixon. (2) Jean, married David Bannerman of Letham Hill, whose only surviving child, Elizabeth, married at the Moss in 1805 the Rev. John Graham of Fintry, afterwards of Killearn (see Grahams of Ballewan), and had issue, Captain Thomas Graham, late of Balfunning, and three daughters. (3) Mary, married James Dennistoun of Golfhill, banker in Glasgow, and had four sons—(i.) Alexander, M.P. for Dumbartonshire in 1834, who succeeded his father in Golfhill, and was head of the great house of J. & A. Dennistoun, Glasgow. The survivors of his family are Alexander H. Dennistoun, now of Golfhill, and Eleanor, wife of Professor Sellar of Edinburgh, (ii.) William, died young, (iii.) James, married, but died childless, (iv.) John, from 1837 to 1847 M.P. for Glasgow, and a partner of J. & A. Dennistoun. The survivors of his family are John, a merchant in London, and Constance, whose first husband was John Hamilton, and who is now the wife of Archibald C. Lawrie of Moss. Mary Finlay and James Dennistoun had also two daughters, Mrs. Walter Wood, died childless, and Mrs. John Wood, whose grandson, John Walter Cross, married George Eliot, the celebrated authoress. Mr. Dennistoun by a second marriage had three daughters. Jean, the second daughter of John Duncan and Elizabeth Graham, married in 1736 James Smith of Craigend. (See Craigend.)

Andrew Duncan, the eldest of the three sons, died young, and John and James were tenants in Drummiekeich. John Duncan married Agnes Lyle, a daughter of another old Strathblane family, and had two sons—John, born in 1738, and Charles, born 1739, and a daughter, Bethia, who married Robert M'lndoe of Carbeth, and had issue. James Duncan married Margaret Taylor of Fintry, and had a large family, of whom the three eldest, James, William, and John, went to Virginia to push their fortunes there along with their cousins, Charles Duncan and Archibald Smith, afterwards of Jordanhill, a younger son of James Smith of Craigend and Jean Duncan, his wife. Ann Duncan, the youngest daughter of James Duncan and Margaret Taylor, married Archibald Craig of Dalsholm, of the Ballewan family (which see).

Of the Strathblane cousins who thus settled in America, Charles Duncan remained there, married, and had two daughters, one of whom married James Dunlop of Rosslyn, Virginia, afterwards of Russell Square, London, and the other was Mrs. Gamble. Mrs. Dunlop had a son, and Mrs. Gamble a daughter, but both died unmarried. James, William, and John Duncan and Archibald Smith, on the breaking out of the War of Independence in 1774, left America, the Duncans settling in Dublin, and Archibald Smith, as a West India merchant, in Glasgow. (See Craigend.)


 * Why did you write this on a wikipedia Talk page?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.81.116.8 (talk) 07:06, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Leaving James Duncan, the eldest of the three brothers, till afterwards, we find that William Dunean, the second of them, married a Scottish lady, Miss Baird, and had (1) William, who went to South America, and fought in the War of Independence in 1824, under General Bolivar, with the rank of colonel. His two sons, Colonel James Duncan and William Duncan, are well-known citizens of Baranquilla, South America. (2) James, who also went to South America- (3) Maria, married David Taylor of Edendale. Their eldest daughter, Agnes Maria, married John Craig, son of Archibald Craig of Dalsholm, of the family of Ballewan, Strathblane, and had issue Archibald David Craig and the Rev. John Duncan Craig, D.D., incumbent of Trinity Church, Dublin. (See Ballewan.) (4) Rebecca. (5) Jane. (6) Agnes.

John Duncan, the youngest of the brothers who returned from Virginia, married a sister of William Duncan's wife. His son settled in the United States, married, and had a daughter, who married Dr. Emmett, a New York physician, and nephew of the celebrated and unfortunate Robert Emmett, one of the leaders of the Irish rebellion, and who was executed in 1803. John Duncan had a daughter, Mrs. John Hutton, whose eldest son is John Hutton of Merovyn, County Wicklow; her daughter Maria married the Rev. John A. Malet, D.D., whose son is Professor Malet of the Queen's University, and her daughter Henrietta married Charles J. Fox Taylor of Redford Lodge.

James Duncan, the eldest of the brothers, returned from Virginia and became a West India merchant. He lived in Eccles Street, Dublin, and by his marriage in 1796 to Hannah, daughter of William Arnold, he had a daughter, Elizabeth, born 1797, who married George Peyton of Driney, County Leitrim, and had issue; and a son, James, born 1798.

James Duncan the son, was manager of the Bank of Ireland at Sligo. He married Harriett Crosthwait, daughter of Leland Crosthwait, Governor of the Bank of Ireland, and had five daughters and two sons, of whom the eldest, James, died in 1853. James Duncan died in Dublin in 1874, and is buried at Sligo. The second son, Leland Crosthwait Duncan, fourth in descent from John Duncan of Ledlowan and Drummiekeich, and Elizabeth Graham, his wife, was born in 1831. He is an officer in H.M. Customs, and lives in London. He married in 1861 Caroline Ellen, daughter of F. Lewis, of Her Majesty's Treasury, and has issue, Leland Lewis Duncan, of the War Office, born 1862; Caroline Annette, and Amy Adela.

Source: The parish of Strathblane and its inhabitants from early times: a chapter in ... By John Guthrie Smith, 1886, John Maclehose and Sons, Glasgow

Alfonso P Duncan Apduncan (talk) 01:28, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Article content
This article is lacking factual clan history. It mainly consists of traditional history up to the 1300's and then jumps to the 18th century.QuintusPetillius (talk) 16:33, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is this page using a clancrest only reg'd in 2007 by someone who is mearly the head of the clan society? He's not a recognized cheif by the court. The traditional crest should be used! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.173.3.249 (talk) 14:18, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * There is no 'clan Duncan,' as Duncan isn't gaelic. This page should redirect to Clan Donnachaidh, the only real-life source of Duncan surnames, septs and variants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.81.116.8 (talk) 07:20, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Article dispute
I noticed recently that this article was blanked and redirected to the Clan Robertson page without discussion. In future there must be discussion before anything like this happens again, as per the rules of Wikipedia in that you are not allowed to remove sourced information without prior discussion.QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

No current chief
The Duncan clan has no current chief.

I myself addressed the court of lord Lyon via email to enquire about Clan members who hold land and are making claims to lead the Duncan Clan, one name was mentioned to myself. Mr J Duncan.

There are numerous members of the Duncan clan who (own land) and (work there land). There are quite a few who qualify to be named Laird. The clan has no leader and leadership is disputed however the assigned coat of arms and clan crest still applies. There is no Duncan Chief therefore nobody who leads the clan.

Now there is John Duncan of Sketraw who I have been informed has declared himself as leader of clan Duncan and gained local support.

John Duncan has ties to numerous pages of Scottish history and clan society pages and has persuaded many members to adopt his own Coat of Arms and Clan Crest. I myself or members of my family could easily challenge John however we are members of the clan with no evidence linking us to the last Chief Duncan. I have been to a few meets where I never have herd of this John Duncan but I am shocked he has applied his own Coat and crest to all Duncan's, especially where there are members in better positions than himself to claim leadership of clan Duncan.

The official clan crest and motto belongs to the clan chief and not individual members. Members may support Johns crest but there is no right to apply it to all Duncan's including the Coat of Arms selected for the Duncan clan as a whole. Mr J Duncan has no right to apply leadership to the Duncan's or change the selected crest, motto or coat of arms. I know this because I can do the same as Mr J Duncan however it is not my place to apply myself to the Clan Duncan.

The clan crest for the Duncan clan remains a ship on the sea with full mast reading Disce Pati, (LEARN TO SUFFER).

Now I ask all Duncan's to leave the wiki page as it was originally based on facts. There has been many important parts of clan history removed. The Duncan Clan page has been left basic. The page is an insight to the history of the clan and not full a to z script.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Angelo542 (talk • contribs) 11:45, 20 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a place for you to promote clan differences or claims of any sort. Nor is it a place for you to change to your own point of view. Edits on the article by yourself and what also appears to be your use of an anon editor IE:- 195.11.166.194 to augment your claims. You have also violated the copyright of the Clan Donald Website by uploading an image for which you do not appear to have copyright permission to upload. I have therefore reverted your editing to the last stable version available, prior to your editing. Richard Harvey (talk) 20:14, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

talk I have already stated I am not trying to promote anything. You clearly are not educated in Scottish society and Clan matters. My edits are not (my point of views). They are facts backed by Goverment, and I have a Clan Register book signed and dated by The Duke Of Edinburgh also backing my edits. I also do not know who that anon editor is and I am offended by your accusation.

Now as I have said time and time again however I shall say it again.

Mr John Duncan has been trying to gain title of Clan Chief for some time now. Mr J Duncan created the The Clan Duncan society along with others to push his agenda on an entire clan, worldwide.

The links I added were placed upon Wikipedia by myself to (prove) that The insignia I have placed is correct for the Clan Duncan.

The images are free use here in Scotland and are the assigned images for the Duncan Clan. If you do your research you will quickly learn only a Clan chief can (change) the selected insignia of a clan, the government selected the crest I have posted as it was the last official Crest.

Now many members of my clan have opposed Mr J Duncan and his self applied title as leader of the clan and to this day he has not been selected to lead the clan and has no legal right to change the clan tartan or crest which he has attempted to do.

This is a matter for members of the Duncan clan and not Wikipedia admins. Now there are no Clan Duncan websites created except Mr J Duncans as he has spent allot of time and money on making The Clan Duncan Society.

If you would like to help me edit in the proper manner then feel free however do not insult members of the public or interfere with matters you are lacking knowledge in like (Scottish Clan Politics).

My aim is to stop fraudulent claims to leadership until an official leader is assigned and announced by the court.

A.J Duncan 20:38, 25 July 2015 (UTC)ADuncan - (AKA:- Angelo542)

Editing
Hello,

I am new to Wikipedia and I am not 100% good at editing on wiki as of yet. The reason I joined is based on constant inaccuracies on wiki history. It is not my (opinions) I am posting but Facts proven

1) In any history books 2) In government locations such as a library's 3) Officially placed in public shops such as merchandise.

My aim is not to edit at all however false history on Wikipedia seems to be common throughout many pages.

Now the Clan Duncan Crest is (officially) Disce Pati, however a laird of the clan who seeks to become the next chief created his own coat of arms and crest and has had them placed upon multiple websites he contributes to. This lard has been denied as the clan chief and has no legal right to change the insignia of an entire clan based on his title to land ownership.

The court of Lord Lyon has not acknowledged his crest and coat of arms as the Duncan Clans even if he has posted it to multiple websites.

The UK government has assigned the clan crest which reads Disce Pati and our tartans apply, Duncan Ancient and Duncan modern. They are copyrighted to HMG and the insignia is used on multiple merchandise throughout the world.

This laird has created his own page and united a group of duncans and has made himself a self proclaimed leader of the entire Duncan clan.

I myself still attend Clan meets where we agree there is no chief so no leader.

Now with the history. There is allot of Duncan history however keeping it basic is key on Wikipedia.

If the admins would like to help me and my edits at this moment, that would be helpful as I am still getting used to wiki.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Angelo542 (talk • contribs) 12:43, 25 July 2015 (UTC)


 * An important point: it doesn't matter how many times you say "It is not my (opinions) I am posting but Facts", nor does it matter how many times you repeat those things that you consider to be the facts. You have to cite reliable sources to support those statements. For example, when you say "any history books": we don't expect a Wikipedia reader to pick through random history books to verify what they read in Wikipedia. So we need you to be very specific about which book, who wrote it, what page, what does it say? When you say "The UK government has assigned the clan crest ...", which government publication states that? And so on. – Wdchk (talk) 06:42, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Duncan Clan - Official Insignia
I am not using Wikipedia to promote my (own) belief's at all. I am reversing back changes done by a successful fraud.

The images I have uploaded are free to the public here in Scotland and are found in multiple retailers across the world and can be used by any members of the public. I have been told the clan crest dose not belong to anyone, however I am not creating my own website just to get a copyright on my own Image that is freely used throughout Scotland

The reason I have used commercial sites as tags is to prove that the images are actually the official images for the clan. Mr John Duncan has already been involved in heated debates here in Scotland due to his lack of respect for the Duncan Clan and his self-righteous attitude as a leader.

Mr J Duncan has attempted to gain enough support to become the Duncan Clan leader however he has been (refused officially). Mr J Duncan has abused his power and position and created multiple websites to apply his own insignia to an entire Clan.

You are clearly not from Scotland so have not encountered J Duncan or myself at any clan meets.

As a member of the Duncan clan and a member of the public I will not stand by and allow false claims on Wikipedia or false insignia.

If you would like to advise me on what exactly I need to do to apply the real Crest,motto ect without having any problems then that would be helpful. Removing my images will not stop me from applying the correct insignia to The clan profile here on Wikipedia.

The top 3 Clan Duncan websites are owned by the same person, Mr J Duncan himself.

You can not simply apply your own insignia for an entire Scottish clan. Either the clan chief can or a government official, or the Duke of Edinburgh.

If any non Scottish editors do not understand this then feel free to ask me and I will explain.A.J Duncan 20:10, 25 July 2015 (UTC)ADuncan - (AKA:- Angelo542)

Somewhat Dismayed at the Ignorance
I am totally dismayed that I, John Duncan of Sketraw is being branded as some sort of want-to-be Chief of Duncan. At no time have I ever wanted to be Chief of a Clan Duncan and my only interest ever was to see the Clan go forward and have a Chief appointed by a derbhfine see http://www.clan-duncan.co.uk/clan-recognition-derbhfine.html I have never called or indicated to anyone that I want to be considered as I DO NOT. I have however tried to lead the Clan forward to obtain this goal but due to ill health over the past 3 years have had to back peddle somewhat.

I have spent over 20 years researching the name and the origins of the clan and if some who have butchered the page here would take time to read, have given good documented evidence that the Clan on various parts of the website should indeed petition for its own Chief of the name & arms see http://www.clan-duncan.co.uk/duncan-donnachaidh-robertson.html for further evidence from people such as the Lord Lyon King of Arms Sir Thomas Innes of Learney for example and other scholarly people. I have considerably more material that at some point will be published to give further evidence that the Duncans should have their own Chief and not be part of Clan Robertson. Yes Clan Robertson not Clan Donnachaidh as some believe to quote the letters patent for arms from the Court of The Lord Lyon "Langton George Duncan Haldane Robertson of Struan, Chief of the name and head of Clan Robertson otherwise entitled Clan Donnachaidh" in other words its Clan Robertson and Clan Donnachaidh is something they have called themselves (contact Lyon Court for conformation)

I could go on but the whole article has been butchered by the ignorance and Mr A Duncan and others who seem to take the Robertson account of the Name and Clan. Mr A Duncan who says, "you would like to help me edit in the proper manner then feel free however do not insult members of the public or interfere with matters you are lacking knowledge in like (Scottish Clan Politics)." Should first have some knowledge of the name and Clan and also how to address people correctly in Scotland...He calls me Mr J Duncan or Mr John Duncan that is not how I should be addressed, you may call me John, John Duncan of Sketraw or just plain Sketraw but I should not be addressed as Mr. Again you should perhaps touch base with Lyon Court to confirm I would also suggest you take time to read up on your name and not just take for granted what the Robertsons say, theirs is oly one account taken from a rather dubious 'Red Book of Clan Donnachaidh' which is said to have been lost in a fire and written down several over 200 years later from memory. "Duncan’s death and its circumstances appears in a manuscript written by Duncan the 14th Chief in the eighteenth century. He said he was copying what originally appeared in the Red Book of Clan Donnachaidh which was destroyed in a fire at Meggernie castle, Glen Lyon, in the 1650s" ...think about it!

The whole wikipedia page on Clan Duncan has been chopped and butchered by the ignorant and the well referenced article should be returned to the way it was initially if anyone wishes to contact me direct and and requires questions answered I will do my best to do so john@sketraw.co.uk I could go on and on ...... Sketraw (talk) 18:21, 17 September 2015 (UTC)


 * There was a series of poorly expressed, unsupported, copyright-violating and frankly disruptive editing by an editor who abusively used more than one user name (one of which has been permanently blocked) and also sometimes edited from IP addresses without logging in. They are also responsible for the last few streams of posts above. Various editors attempted to tackle these dud edits in a piecemeal fashion but looking at the edit history, the article still appears to be substantially different to its form before the campaign. I believe the first such edit was on the 13th of July. Are you happy, or happier, with the the article as it was prior to this, i.e. in this form? Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:29, 17 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I've reverted the article to the earlier version. I thought it had already been done.  Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  13:09, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks Jim, I'd had the same impression until I checked. Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:09, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Edit
Basic translation of Disce Pati in Latin is (learn to suffer), the error has been removed and corrected.

Clan insignia

The clan crest for the Duncan clan has been debated. The Lord lyon's personal secetary has confirmed that a clan crest can only be selected by the (clan cheif) and any clan member can show alligence to the insignia. Only the clan cheif can apply his crest for the entire clan name, as there is no current clan cheif there is no clan insignia. The previous selected clan crest was adopted and applied to the entire clan Duncan and remains as the current insignia throught locations accross the world. It would be appropriate to apply the crest that has been in most common use.

The clan crest is a ship at full mast with the mottow Disce Pati.

Tartans

There has been 2 tartans in circulation over the years and still apply as the selected tartans for the clan.

Duncan Modern and Duncan ancient.

Tartans are debatable due to there being multiple tartans for clans throughtout history.

Please discuss. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.11.166.194 (talk) (AKA:- Angelo542) 18:26, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Image location.
I am struggling to edit a photo I uploaded. The Clan Duncan coat of arms is pretruding into the lower tartan section and I do not know how to keep it in the heraldry section as I am new to Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChrisDuncan42 (talk • contribs) 13:30, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
 * New? Aye, wheech! You've been socking here for a couple of years under various identities (the main one User:Angelo542, also User:ADuncan42) and IPs, per above. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:56, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Motto
The motto was originally given as "Savour The Moment", which words appear on the crest; this was changed by an anon with the edit summary "change the family moto" [sic] to "Disce Pati (Learn to Suffer or Endure)" (it was the IP's only edit ever too). The "reference" given later led to this website, which simply lists Latin phrases, but I couldn't even find there the phrase in question. Consequently I returned the original motto. --Droigheann (talk) 18:08, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Clan Tartans
I noticed the Wiki page has the image of a newer tartan, a personal tartan? Where is the other tartans for Duncan, can someone upload them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.104.231.204 (talk) 15:29, 17 October 2019 (UTC)