Talk:Clan Irvine

Irvings of Bonshaw
May I suggest the new line 24: "The Irvines of Bonshar who the Irvines of Drum descend were deemed to be the chiefly family by an act of Parliament in 1587." is deleted?

Quite apart from the gammatic failings of this sentence, in fact the 1587 Act did not deem Bonshaw to be the chief. The question of chieftainship and the Drum/Bonshaw relationship is contentious and inappropriate to what is otherwise a good quality entry.

Yorkstones 15:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)Yorkstones


 * Whilst I agree that this article on the Irvines of Drum is a good quality entry, it is incorrect in stating that the Irvings of Bonshaw are a branch of the Irvines of Drum. In fact, there is no social, historic or economic link between either of the two clans.  Both the Irvines of Drum and the Irvings of Bonshaw share the same name of which there are many different Spellings of the Name.  The Irvines of Drum are a highland clan and the Irvings of Bonshaw are borderers, that is clearly understood.  The relationship between the two has never existed despite contentious claims over the years.  The question of chiefship is an inappropriate matter for discussion in this forum.  What has been stated in this commentary is supported by an exchange of correspondence during 2007 - 2008 between David Irvine of Drum (26th Baron) and myself, Rupert Irving, a descendant of the original Irving of Bonshaw family line.
 * Rupertirving (talk) 12:01, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hello User:Rupertirving, to address your points. I do not agree that the article on the Clan Irvine is a good quality entry, see list of good clan articles, and excellent clan articles. There is much room for improvement, and you are more than welcome in helping by editing Clan Irving. However if your edits are considered contentions, or controversial (i.e. Irving of Bonshaw being a clan in its own right), others are likely to delete if you fail to give good references. Unsurprisingly, the clan articles are unfortunately often plagued with unsubstantiated claims on chiefs.


 * As to your point on Bonshaw being a separate branch (or not), there seems little doubt that this branch exists. However, references would be needed to place it as a separate clan. For this the head of Bonshaw would have to be a recognized chief, (i.e. a member of the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs would be a good reference). Branches of clans, while the name would suggest otherwise, are not always linked to the main line (this is also true of clansmen who can rarely trace themselves to the chiefly line, but remain clansmen through the common surname). I have recently been sorting through the branches of Clan Hay and found that: a) they are scattered across Scotland; and b) not all branches could link to the main line of Erroll, and no evidence exists to link the main sub branch of Tweeddale (ref: The Scots peerage p.416) to Erroll.


 * Notes - I think questions (where such questions exist) of chiefship are very appropriate subject matter for discussion in their reespective clan forums. After all, The clan is the chief, and every person who shares the same surname as the chief's is deemed to be a member of the clan, see ref. As far as I am aware, both Drum and Bonshaw are lowland. I do not think unpublished personal corespondence can be a reference used on Wikipedia, see Verifiability.


 * What I think is the best solution is to place a paragraph in the Clan Irvine article entitled Branches (like in Clan Forbes), and give thereto a history of the Irvines of Bonshaw.


 * Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 15:59, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * p.s. I found this wiki article: Barony of Bonshaw.

To Czar Brodie

May I point out that Aberdeenshire is in the Scottish Highlands along with Drum Castle which is also located in the Scottish Highlands. Therefore the Irvines of Drum with David Irvine 26th Baron as Clan Chief are separate from the Irvings of Bonshaw whose Clan Chief is Captain Robert Alec Snow Irving (RN Retd.) with the clan seat located at Bonshaw Tower situated in South West Scotland - Dumfries and Galloway. All this is registered and set out at The Court of the Lord Lyon, the foremost authority in Scotland for all matters to do with Scottish Clans etc. The Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs also recognises these definitions. 18:35, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * ((User:Rupertirving)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ForgottenScot (talk • contribs) 18:35, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Origins of name Irvine
I've deleted the unsupported reference to the town names coming from the Anglo-Saxon forename Erewine and the like. Anglo-Saxon forenames only formed part of place-names if associated with another element, never alone. The contention that Irvine is simply a forename becoming a place name appears here and there on the internet and has most likely just been uncritically copied from one site to another, but such an unusual place-name formation would require seriously good evidence. Incidentally a very different etymology is given in the Wiki article on the River Irvine. I've also removed the reference to the Dumfries place being the main source of the name - how could anyone know this? Again, strong evidence required.Asnac (talk) 15:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)


 * seems most of the evidence comes from clanchiefs.org which is the web site of the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 17:00, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Why does it have to say Aberdeenshire twice? 2601:601:8680:A0A0:91D0:6F3D:A9B9:E660 (talk) 20:34, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Likely because there are two similar parameters in the infobox, and they were both filled in. Primefac (talk) 12:13, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

copypaste
Whole sections appear to be copy pasted directly from url=http://www.clanirving.com/history-of-the-irvings.asp and the article has been tagged according. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 21:45, 3 May 2013 (UTC)