Talk:Clan Little

Sourcing
This piece seems pretty self-referential. Are there sources on 'Clan Little' outside of books written by Littles, or websites apparently maintained by Littles? Would be nice to see some better sourcing of the claims contained herein. MarmadukePercy (talk) 09:43, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Clan Little was a minor clan on the Border. Respected authors on Border history, such as George McDonald Fraser, make only passing reference to the Littles and provide few details. Dr Johnnie Little has published a number of books on the Littles and the language of the Border, and I believe he would be considered authoritative on the subject. Much of the information on the Clan Little Society website is taken from his publications and contributions to the Society's newsletters. Dougalbnz (talk) 10:01, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Okay. I am familiar with the Borders and some of the other clans, like the Armstrongs. I'm just wondering about claims like this one: "The Littles trace their male line through the Dukes of Normandy to Ingjald, the last Yngling Peace King of Uppsala, Sweden who ruled in the mid 7th century AD." That's a pretty far stretch, it seems to me. MarmadukePercy (talk) 10:13, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. The referenced book cites Richard le Lytle as the "third son of a third son in the fifth post-Conquest generation of ... Hugh Lupus, Earl of Chester".  Hugh was the grandson of Robert, Duke of Normandy.  The Dukes of Normandy descend from Rollo whose ancestry is given at http://aj69.tripod.com/ancestry/gene904.html .  I understand that Rollo's ancestry is debated.Dougalbnz (talk) 10:42, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if you are being overly harsh in your questioning of JC Little's authority. I suggest that much of the research done on families (that aren't 'famous' or of national significance) is done by people with strong ties to the family. I would also suggest that information produced by their research is usually the result of many hours of searching records. Whether family histories are self-published (as they so often are because publishers are not interested in such work or are cost prohibitive) or otherwise should make little difference to the validity of the information. Much of JC Little's work draws on his own research. He references other authors in his own publications. Dougalbnz (talk) 20:37, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * First, the way JC Little's research is presented here makes it impossible to verify what his sources are. Second, you are correct that many families' histories are chronicled largely by family members. But for an encyclopedia entry that only increases the need to make sure those sources (and others) are accurate and not biased. When one presents a pedigree going back to the Yngling kings of Sweden for a Scottish Border Clan, that presents problems. The best we can do here is to try to find the most reliable sources and present them to readers so they have a comfort level that what's presented is accurate. Many family historians are perforce amateurs, unaccustomed to rigorous scholarship. For all JC Little's hard work, I don't think he's an academic (or pretends to be). So it's even more incumbent to try to find more reliable, unbiased sources. Surely there are some out there, available through google books and the like. As this piece stands now, Czar Brodie has correctly tagged some of the statements which will need more definitive sourcing. MarmadukePercy (talk) 23:37, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

motto
One of the mottos appears to belong to the chief of Clan Congilton, The Congilton of that Ilk, whose motto is Magna in parvo (Much in little) [ref: myclan.com] in reference to his crest: a bee (i.e. there is much done by a little bee). Error to refer this motto to Little, or need ref? Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 13:01, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Now referenced. Dougalbnz (talk) 21:07, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * thanks for that. I checked the Encyclopædia of heraldry and the General Armory. Both made me question the origin of the arms and motto of Meikledale and why these are not listed as the saltire engrailed, with motto: Magnum in Parvo. I found what I believe to be the source of MyClan.com's information: Scottish arms : being a collection of armorial bearings, A.D. 1370-1678 by R. R. Stodart, 1881. pp. 243:-
 * Porteus has for Little of Mekildale — sable, a saltire (engrailed ?) argent. Stacie has the following valuable entry: — "Litle of Meikledale of old, David Litle being now chiefe 1670, servant to King Charles the Second in England, bears the former coat — sable, a saltire argent ; crest — a demi - lyon issuing furth of a wreath of his collours Sa., powldered with saltier crosses as the other armed G., in his dexter paw a cutless proper, and in his sinister a saltier cross Ar. ; motto — ' Concedo nulli ;' 1670, extract." Along with the other entry of the old arms he gives the motto, "Fidei coticula crux" adding, "sent to London 1672" David was son of Thomas Little, who was son of Simon of Meikledale.
 * this text goes on to mention some fascinating Little history (pp.243-244), so I think Dougalbnz you should be able to find plenty of third party references to the Littles, and provide many details, but this would involve quite a bit of searching - My main problem was when trying to trace sources on search engines the obvious: "Little" is not just a name but an adjective used in just about every book, to be frustrating. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 13:05, 25 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you so much for your input and support.Dougalbnz (talk) 06:59, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Coat of Arms
I just noticed that the Arms posted by Czar Brodie are incorrect. They should be 'Sable a Saltire Argent'; that is, a white saltire on a black field. The image is reversed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougalbnz (talk • contribs) 04:34, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * corrected per comment above, sorry, silly me. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 10:35, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I have removed reference to Crawford Little's Arms. These have never been used by the Clan Little Society as the Society is armigerous in its own right. I have added a blazon of the Society's Arms (in my own words). If someone can edit the blazon with the actual blazon received from Lyon Office, I would be obliged. Dougalbnz (talk) 10:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Tartan
I have reinstated the sentence about the Border practice of wearing trews and maud. This is an important difference when many people imagine that Scottish National Dress is defined by the kilt. I believe this sentence may also give people searching for Border dress characteristics some guidance. An example of mismatched trews and maud may be seen in 'The Littles of the Border', a VHS put out by Border Heritage.Dougalbnz (talk) 10:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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