Talk:Clan MacAulay

GA Review thoughts
Well, it is long. Perhaps it should be divided? Whether into 3 (Ardencaple, Lewis, Ullapool/Loch Broom), or 4 (the previous 3 plus the modern clan) I don't know. Anyway, that's not directly relevant to the review. The criteria and my thoughts on each are: I'll leave detailed comments on the first and second points after trying my hand at copyediting. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * (well written): Needs some copyediting. Will have a go myself, but the League of Copyeditors may be able to do more if a volunteer can be found there.
 * (factually accurate and verifiable): mostly ok on this count, although I wondered if there were any more recent works which were relevant on the origins of the Lennox MacAulay's (Cynthia Neville?).
 * (broad coverage): yes.
 * (neutral): apparently so.
 * (stable): yes.
 * (images): yes.


 * Hi Angus, thanks for reviewing the article. Yes you're right, i'd love to look through Native Lordship in Medieval Scotland: The Earldoms of Strathearn and Lennox, c. 1140-1365, i just haven't been able to track down a copy around here. I'll definitely keep an eye out for it. I think Jenny Wormald's book on Bonds of Manrent might having something relevant about the MacGregor bond. OK, I didn't known of the L of Copyeditors.--Celtus 06:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm removing this: By July 1594 the Earl had eventually executed Patrick MacAulay og "Mackalla ogg" and his brother Patrick, for Calder's murder. Because i'm unsure about it. Here's the reference  it names the two Patricks as MacAulays (Mackalla), and as a footnote mentions one of them was named Gillimartin in the Warrander Papers. This site lists the parties involved in the murder and no MacAulays are mentioned but there is a Gillimertine Mackellar (Gillimartin, Gillimertine M'Eller) and a Gillipatrick Oge Mackellar (the triggerman). Then on this site The MacKellars took part in the infamous plot to murder Campbell of Cawdor in 1592. The fatal shot that killed him at Knipoch was fired from a hackbut by Patrick Og MacKellar who was later hanged; his brother Gillemartin was also involved. That site's text is lifted straight out of Alastair Campbell's recent 'A History of Clan Campbell', so i think its a good enough source. So the source i first used mistook Mackalla to be MacAulay, when it should have been MacKellar. Celtus 07:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

One sentence that needs reworked is this (from the section "Alliance with clan Gregor"): The bond stated that the two chiefs "understanding ourselfs and our name to be M'Calppins of auld and to be our just and trew surname". It seems to be missing whatever conclusion they drew from their understanding. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I was trying to show the most obvious quotation from the bond that is used to show how the two clans were related. The two chiefs considered themselves to be MacAlpins, and Skene wrote that there was no doubt that the MacAulays were a branch of Siol Alpin along with the MacGregors. I guess it would be much clearer if the sentence was worked into the following about Skene. So i'll do that.--Celtus 07:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I've finished doing a quick copyedit. No doubt it's not up to Tony's featured standards, but it all seems reasonable to be with the caveat above, which is trivial in an article of this length. The red links all seem reasonable - having none is a bad sign, just as having dozens is bad - perhaps with the exception of ad hoc derbhfine, which seems rather obscure. I'm surprised that derbhfine is a red link, presumably we're missing a redirect to somewhere or other. It would be a good idea if you reread the article to make sure that I haven't changed anything that shouldn't have been changed. If you have a gloss on Donald Cam's byname somewhere, use that. I took the meaning of Cam from MacLennan's dictionary (and analogy with the earlier Cáem/Cáech). I must say I like this a lot, it's always nice to see what we don't know being given its place. This is a very good good article. Great work! Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the review and edits, Angus. I'll de-link ad hoc derbhfine since derbhfine is already wiki-linked. The meaning of cam i used was from from Capt. FWL Thomas - "Càm, Gaelic, (pron. karhm} means blind of an eye. A Gaelic proverb is " Cha robh cam, nach robh crosda," i.e., "Whoever is blind of an eye is pugnacious, or ill-natured." MacBain's online dictionary gives "crooked, one eyed" .--Celtus 07:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Article split
I split the MacAulays of Lewis & MacAulays of Ullapool and Loch Broom into their own articles. Hopefully this one will be a bit easier for someone to read through now that it's been slimmed down a bit.--Celtus 09:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Copyedit questions
I started a copyedit on this...see hidden comments in the text labeled COPYEDITOR NOTE for questions that I couldn't resolve. Galena11 (talk) 04:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Galena11. Thanks for the edits and corrections. I followed your recommendations. About the "the Lennox" thing - the district is known as "the Lennox", so to make it seem like the sentence wasn't missing a noun i included the in the wiki-link. "the Lennox" Hope that works.--Celtus (talk) 12:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Works for me. *smile* W hat was the decision on "the Clan ..." vs. "Clan ..." question I inserted in the lead paragraph? I'd like to make it consistent.  Nevermind...just noticed that it appears that you've decided on "Clan ...".  Thanks!  Galena11 (talk) 16:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Copyedit complete--please see COPYEDITOR NOTES. Feel free to delete the notes as you resolve issues. Galena11 (talk) 18:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * About the italicised quote "his lights and entrails might be seen" - i'm not sure what lights would actually be. Until now i assumed it meant bones or ribs (the passage its taken from doesn't provide a 'translation' to the term like it did for harn pan and wamb). But i just googled it and found a couple examples of its use:
 * "There are in this body head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin; flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow, kidneys; heart, liver, midriff, spleen, lights; bowels, entrails, gorge, dung; bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat; tears, grease, spittle, snot, oil-of-the-joints, and urine"
 * "The hearts, lights and entrails were added to the compound, and in the beginning a few beans were put into the vat..."
 * So i don't know for sure what the term lights means.


 * Other than that i took care of the notes you left. Thanks for going through the whole thing and re-writing the clumsy parts. :)--Celtus (talk) 10:47, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Dictionary.com cites the Random House dictionary's definition of "lights" as "the lungs, esp. of a sheep, pig, etc.". Galena11 (talk) 05:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Lungs, got it. Thanks for that.--Celtus (talk) 10:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Manrent
I have a contradictory source info for the MacGregor - MacAulay Manrent. My source gives: 1591 entered into between MacGregor of Glenstrae and MacAulay of Ardincaple, of date 27th May 1591, the latter acknowledges his being a cadet of the former, and agrees to pay him the "calp," that is, a tribute of cattle given in acknowledgment of superiority.. This seems miles apart from the terms of the manrent in the article hereto stating: The following May saw the Bond of Manrent between Clan MacAulay and Clan Gregor, in which both chiefs swore an alliance to assist each other, their "kin and friends in all their honest actions against whatsoever person or persons the Kings Majesty being only excepted".. Please advise, Czar Brodie (talk) 17:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Its the same bond, the quote is a small part of it. It is just mentioned in that paragraph to show how soon the formal agreement between Ardincaple & Glenstrae took place after the episode with Buchanans (in which a MacAulay died and a MacGregor was injured). The bond is dealt with in the section below that in Alliance with clan Gregor. "This formal agreement, known as a bond of manrent, was between Aulay MacAulay of Ardincaple and Alasdair MacGregor of Glenstrae. In the bond, the two chiefs promised to aid each other against anyone but the King, and MacAulay acknowledged being a cadet of the House of MacGregor and promised to pay the MacGregor chief his calp (a tribute of cattle or the best eighth of a part of goods)."
 * Wormald gives this as a brief statement on the MacGregor-MacAulay bond: "contract of friendship in standard terms; made because they understand that they come of the same house of Macalpine, and Alexander is the eldest brother; but Aulay reserves his right, as chief of the Macaulays, to uplift his calp; promises to give Alexander calp in token that he comes of his house," early she defines standard terms for Bonds of Friendship, "promises to assist in each other's actions and causes, to warn of an prevent harm, to give counsel, and so on".
 * Do you think the article is misleading about the manrent?--Celtus (talk) 07:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * No. Just wondered if the bond was mixed up with another. Checking my sources. Thanks. I've noted that the term friendship if often applied to manrents regardless of the terms. In retrospect, it seems normal that an article about the Clan MacAuley would focus on the clan's alliances, treaties etc regardless of their "small print" terms; but an article about manrent would examine how the manrents differ in terms etc (i.e. linking a calp to the terms is not standard). I think leave things as they are. yours, Czar Brodie (talk) 14:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * By small print do you mean MacAulay's acknowledging he is a cadet of MacGregor, and agrees to pay a calp to MacGregor? You can see that part is clearly mentioned. Or is it concerning the calp? More detail to what giving calp meant will make the point clearer, i think. I'll put in: "The payment of the calp was a significant custom in Gaelic society; giving ones best animal to the person acknowledged as his chief", with a ref. That was in a previous version, and used on Siol Alpin article.--Celtus (talk) 06:22, 28 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I changed this part "(a tribute of cattle or the best eighth of a part of goods)" to "The giving of calp, a tribute of cattle or the best eighth of a part of goods to a superior lord or chief, was a significant custom in Gaelic society." Wormald gives this for a definition of calp "highland render to a lord: a beast, or the best eighth of goods". Alastair Campbell of Airds says this about the giving of calp "This had a coniderable significance in Gaelic society because it was customary for a gift of the best animal from the owner's stock to be given to the person he acknowledged as his Chief" .--Celtus (talk) 06:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

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