Talk:Clan Sinclair

Copy/paste job
This article seems to be a copy/paste job from http://us.geocities.com/elfpolitics/tmclansinclair.html

Do we have the copyright holder's permission to put this here? --Aim Here 18:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

It has now changed.
 * What has now changed? The article still looks very similar to that on the website, certainly similar enough to violate the author's copyrights if he or she objects to you putting it here. Do you have permission from whoever wrote or owns copyright on the article? -- Aim Here 19:07, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I have made a number of changes to the Clan Sinclair page.
 * Firstly, none of the names, dates or places were linked to the wiki articles that exist for them.


 * Secondly, Some of the information concerning the battles was erroneous. Where fixed, I have tried to include a source.


 * Thirdly, I have fixed typos and grammatical inconsistencies wherever I uncovered them.

-- LeeNapier 15:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Finally, I had created a wiki page for Castle Sinclair & Girnigoe, and so the information presented here about that castle was rendered redundant. I have changed that section to be a general discussion of casltes and other places related to the clan.

The Sinclair family did not acquire the title of Earls of Orkney until the later 14th Century.

March 1st edits by 86.146.48.147
While I take this user's edits to be in good faith attempts to improve this article, not vandalize it, it seems as if his/her bias is to replace any use of "clan" to "family", perhaps due to some perceived negative connotation of the word clan. Not being close to an expert on the topic, I won't revert all 9 changes, but I will say, there are multiple links at the bottom that go to "clan" Sinclair sites and in those links valid information and even more references to the "clan" Sinclair, therefore it would seem to me that Clan Sinclair is a proper term to be used through the article. If anyone else would like to discuss the edits made (especially the user that made them) and potentially reverting them, please chime in. Jason Leach 00:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC) -The term 'Clan' is not really apprpriate for the middle ages; the terms 'kin' or 'affinity' are more suitable since the 'clan' structure as we understand it is an early modern confaltion of earlier Celtic practice and feudal tenures. The Sinclair family was based in the southeast of Scotland until the fourteenth century and were not in any sense a Gaelic kin-group.


 * It is also worth bearing in mind the Sinclair chiefs' origins as adventurers who came over as part of the Norman conquest, and  only later acquired lands in Scotland (See detailed discussion below) This was a similar pattern to many other so-called 'clan' chiefs.

JF42 (talk) 14:12, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Userbox
Just made it for my userpage :) Terrasidius (talk) 23:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we should have a "Notable Contemporary Sinclairs" section
With modern, famous Sinclairs including this beautiful model Alice Sinclair :) ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ (Ταλκ ) 14:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * done ~ as a link to Sinclair (surname). Yours Czar Brodie (talk) 15:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing out! Why these pages were not linked before is weird but anyway I have just spent a good wee while on it and spruced it up a bit, added more people, sorted into alphabeta/profession for ease of understanding and added things like cats and a ref even. Thanks again! :) ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ (Ταλκ ) 21:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

List of "Septs"
How complete is the list of sub-families? My grandfather came from the Orkney Islands, and I was told he was part of Clan Sinclair. His last name was "Barnie", but I didn't see it listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.74.143.190 (talk) 04:06, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The Clan Sinclair Australia website lists "Barney" as a sept . Only a few clans seem to have an 'official' list of septs. It doesn't seem like Clan Sinclair has such a list. Of the three association websites listed on the chief's website, only the Australian and Canadian websites list any names. The Canadian one just states "Other family names associated with Clan Sinclair are Caird, Clouston, Clyne, Flett, Gallie, Linklater, Lyall, Mason and Moar; these are usually called septs of our clan" . Anyways its really a losing battle with just listing surnames, you'll never get every last spelling variation.--Celtus (talk) 05:56, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

My thought is that this page should either have a complete list of names, or no list at all. A partial list doesn't make sense. I'm not a student of Scottish history, so don't want to add the name myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.74.143.190 (talk) 23:24, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Chief's arms
The chief's website shows a pic of his coat of arms. Seems like the one currently in the infobox needs to be replaced.--Celtus (talk) 06:01, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * agreed. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 16:19, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Origin of the clan
(posted by User:Whitelightening sic)

Most sources such as Rootsweb on the internet, public pedigree trees on ancestry.com and books such as reprints of HISTORY OF THE SINCLAIR FAMILY IN EUROPE AND AMERICA, by Leonard Allison Morrison, published in 1896, indicate that Walderne or Woldonius Sinclair was the father of William Sinclair (1230-1297). These sources show his decent line as descending from an uncle of William the Conqueror named "Mauger" (example of this descent line is: Mauger 5; Richard 4; William Longsword 3; Rollo 2 and Ragenwald 1).

Now new research indicates that the ORIGINAL account of the Sinclairs of Rosslyn, that was written in the 17TH Century by Father Richard Augustin Hay, states that William Sinclair was the son of Robert de Saint Clair of Normandy and his mother was Eleanor De Dreux, daughter of Sir Robert, second Comte de Dreux and Jolan (Yolande) of Coucy, his wife. Father Hay lived with the Sinclairs and he was their family priest and steward. Moreover, his mother also married into the Sinclair family making him their kin. In 1835 a copy of Father Hays book that he wrote about the Sinclairs in the 17TH Century titled: GENEALOGY OF THE SINCLAIRS OF ROSSLYN, with notes by an unidentified editor, changed his information about the Sinclairs and replaced it with the unknown editor's own version of the Sinclair genealogy citing Waldonius as the father of William Sinclair!

However, Burkes Peerage and the Scots Peerage support Father Hay's work by stating that Robert de Saint Clair, and not Waldron nor Henry Sinclair of Roskelyn, was the father of William Sinclair. (Burke's only refers to Henry de Roskelyn). It may be that William Sinclair, who married Amicia the daughter of Henry de Roskelyn, was his son-in-law and held Rosslyn in right of his wife, though there is no evidence that Henry de Roskelyn, or his daughter, were Sinclairs. The charter by which William Sinclair gained Roslin in 1279 mentions only Henry de Roskelyn as the previous possessor, and no previous charters have come down to us. BURKES PEERAGE doesn't include a second marriage of William Sinclair to Matilda (Maud) Nesbit of Orkney, but many other sources list this union. Still another source, SAINT-CLAIRS OF THE ISLES, by Roland William Saint Clair, 1898, page 277 use THE SCOTS PEERAGE as a source that also records the possible father-son relationship between William Sinclair and Robert de Saint Clair, using a dotted line, and it records the De Dreux lineage. Robert de Saint Clair's father is recorded in many pedigree trees and some books as being Robert DE Chaumont and his mother is Richilde De Saint Clair; as you continue back in time one discovers the interwoven relationship between the families of: Dreux, Chaumont, Saint Clair, Gisor and Payen.
 * If you want to make changes then each sentence should be properly referenced. It is not acceptable to insert web addresses into the readable article as references. Please see Referencing for beginners and also It should be noted. Thanks. QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:46, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

This is a great summary of the knowledge of the Roslin St Clairs - why then is the un-evidenced genealogy of van Bassan still posted? When any attempt to mention Father Hay's view or Roland St Clair's views is posted, it is imediately removed. Why is this censorship of the researched history of the St Clair family of Roslin allowed to continue? Can someone who is conversant with all the processes enter this well-supported view of the Roslin history, so that both it and the van Bassan genealogy can be contrasted? Can we be fair-minded and neutral about this history? B Dreadon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.72.130.160 (talk) 22:26, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I think Quintus objects to you removing sourced content, and to adding content that isn't properly sourced. Just get the publication info the two books that you want to cite. Then plug it into a citation template like I did with the one book I could find on the net:


 * So if you want to source a factoid from the book above, just copy and past the purple text above, and place it between these two reference tags:


 * And then just plug the whole thing into the article after the factoid you want to source. Now fill out a similar template with Father Hay's book, and add it the same way into the article after the factoid you want to source. It'd be a good idea to cite the precise page number too. To do that, add or  (with the relevant page numbers) to the above citation template.
 * If there is something that you think should be removed from the article - but appears to be sourced - rather than removing it without comment, leave a note here on the article's talk page explaining why you think it should be removed or fixed. That way others understand your actions. The more editors communicate, the less misunderstandings that are are.
 * The two books you've mentioned - including the Scots Peerage - are pretty old. Do you know of any modern accounts of the family? There's likely more recent scholarship out there. G. W. S. Barrow notes the Sinclairs in his The Anglo-Norman Era in Scoltand. He appears to state that they originally arrived in Scotland through of the Bedfordshire Beauchamps, who were allied in marriage to the Morvilles in the 12th-century. Barrow states that the earliest Sinclair recorded in association with a Morville attested a charter in the 1160s. Barrow also notes that the Scots Peerage gives no convincing evidence that the Roslin and Herdmanston Sinclairs have differing origins. Out of curiosity, do you have any idea what actual evidence there is that the Sinclairs arrived in Scotland during during the reign of Malcolm III, or that a Sinclair was even at the Battle of Largs, let alone 'command a wing'?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 01:22, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Brianann. I'll have a look & see if my brain is competent enough to follow through with your helpful instructions. As I understand it there is absolutely no evidence for the Sinclairs of Roslin arriving during the reign of Malcolm III or fighting in the Batle of Largs. Why the mention of Father Hay's book is important - is that it publishes the old genealogy of van Bassan that contains those stories. What some readers miss is that in hay's book, he then goes on to immediately dismiss van Bassan's genealogy in rather strong terms. So it is old, but being the erroneous source of these old stories, Hay needs to be better explained.

I grant that it is the editing of Father Hay's papers and the structure of the published work that can be misleading, but giving legitimacy to the van Bassan genealogy in the front of the book is not what Hay intended. Once that is understood, then there is no evidence or source material to support the early granting of Roslin in the 11th century or the existence of William "the seemly" St Clair. Indeed it is van Bassan who at various points in his genealogy excuses himself by pointing out that the source documents have been lost or burnt. i.e. he confesses to having no source material for his early Roslin genealogy. Roslin & Hermanston might indeed be from the same family originally, as the Roslin origins are not known for certain. However Roland Saint Clair does a good job of explaining how William St Clair the guy who got Roslin granted in 1280, may have gained his various positions as sheriff of Edinburgh and guardian to Prince Alexander through being related to both the Scottish royal family and the Scottish King's wives from France. The St Clair-sur-Epte origin theory, therefore does have some persuasive circumstantial evidence to support it.

You will have gathered I am not a genealogist, an academic or even familiar with the structure of Wikipedia pages. I just happened across these books when reading up the history of St Clair, and spent a bit of time reading them. I attempted to add in a little more information by quoting the books and page numbers of my references in the text. That's not how it's done - I now realise. But surely I can't be the only person in the world that has noticed this posting of what seems to be a bogus history without explaining the doubts about its authenticity. Couldn't someone who is interested in the St Clair origins sort it out - while I go back to reading thrillers? B Dreadon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.72.130.160 (talk) 06:20, 10 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi, sorry for the late reply I have been preoccupied. You are welcome to make changes to the article but anything you add must be properly sourced with a proper Wikipedia reference. For example if you want to add that there is no evidence for the Sinclairs being at the Battle of the Lewes then you need a reference which says exactly that. On the other hand removing that information about that battle is a different kettle of fish because it is a piece of sourced information. It is sourced from the official Clan Sinclair timeline. If you want to remove sourced information then you must discuss your reasoning on this page. So, look up how to cite a reference on Wikipedia if you are going to add information.QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:20, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

If I understand this correctly an explanation is attempted to replace the figure Walderen de Saint-Clair with a Robert who is son-in-law of Robert de Dreux and Yolande de Coucy. These are people from two different time periods more than a century apart. The children of Robert of Dreux and Yolande of Coucy were all born at the end of the 1100's, and the purported beginnings of the Saint-Clair dynasty with Walderen and Count Mauger would be in the early 1000's, unless I am misreading this. --JLavigne508 (talk) 12:11, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Battle of Largs
Im changing the section regarding the battle of Largs, as this was not a Scottish victory. The battle ended inconclusive. In Scotland it has traditionally been sees as a Scottish victory, in Norway it has been seen as a Norwegian victory, historians today conlude it was a draw.

To sum up the battle:

A few ships in the Norwegian fleet stranded at Largs during a storm. When trying to salvage the ships, the outnumbered Norwegians got attacked by the Scottish army. Due to the storm, the main force of the Norwegians could not land and come to rescue, only one ship managed to do so. The battle ended in a skirmish, where the Scots withdrew from the battleground. Due to bad weather, as it was late in the year, the Norwegians headed for Orkney Island to spend the winter and continue the campaign next spring. However, the Norwegian king died during the winter, and the army left home for Norway.

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John Sinclair
The presence of John Sinclair in Spain with his brother, Sir William, as part of Sir James Douglas' company can only be assumed. There is no evidence in the sources and his death in 1330 has been presumed as a result of testamentary evidence indicating John Sinclair had died by November 1331

This is now being presented as fact, in publications such as 'Collins Scottish Clan & Family Encyclopedia', and on unreliable platforms such as clansinclair.org.; e.g. . A discreet qualifying remark is required, at least.

Similarly, whether one brother or both were killed in Spain, clearly their bodies would not have been transported whole back to Scotland for burial. At best, following common practice, seen in John Barbour's account of how Douglas' body was prepared for repatriation, only the bones, stripped of flesh by boiling in water, would have been taken home, leaving the flesh and viscera to be buried in consecrated ground. JF42 (talk) 15:07, 24 March 2018 (UTC)