Talk:Clan Tully

Article needs re-working
This article needs a degree of reworking to comply with standards and copy-editing. For example ''The O'Muldoons (descendants of Maoladduin bother of our ancestor Maoltuile “Tully of Ulster”) were chiefs here. The MacEntaggarts were said to be originally from here. bother of the Clan Tully ancestor Maoltuile “Tully of Ulster”) were chiefs here. The MacEntaggarts were said to be originally from here''.

This is an example of the some of formatting problems, and the fact some statements don't match the quote given in the sources elsewhere in the article mean that this article needs a thorough look over.

Also it does appear that a chunk of the article does appear to be a copy-and-paste job, and from a site that i feel isn't the most reliable and may consist of original research that couldn't be backed up elsewhere. One example of a reliability issue:

It is also significant to note that even today, this area is covered with a plethora of hamlets / villages and landmarks bearing the Tully name.

Unfortunately for the Clan Tully, Tully is a very common place name prefix meaning "hill". If it was being used in a name sense it would be as a suffix, for example Tullyroan mean's Ronan's hill. Tullystown on the other hand being a more English name would however more than likely mean Tully's town.

There also appears to be a possible lack of understanding of Irish place names:

Munitir Taithligh was Chief of Hy-Laoghaire, Lough Lir[

Munitir Taithligh couldn't be the chief of the O'Learys as Muintir means more or less "extended family". Muintir is a common placename in ancient Ireland for distinguishing areas where an extended family of such lives, i.e. Muintir Devlin etc. Mabuska (talk) 12:10, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Removal of Archbishops of Armagh and Tully Church Ties section
I deleted the entire Archbishops of Armagh and Tully Church Ties section as it looks like original research or poorly sourced. This source given doesn't mention Tully or Maeltuile or any kind of similar name so its backing up nothing. The Andrew Tully statement doesn't prove any relevance or connection between the Tully's or these people who have the name Maeltuile. In fact reading them and the Annals themselves, people are given by their forename with the surname not always given.

In fact i have went through the Annals of the Four Masters to double-check and its clear any mention of Maeltuile is as a forename. No proof has been given that any Maeltuile here and sons from which are the same as the progenitor of the Clan Tully. The articles "lineage" section states that his sons are called Dungal, Urthuile, and Fland. The only reference to any of thses is a Dunghal who rather than having a father called Maeltuile has a son called Maeltuile. No proof of any conncetion.

Thus the entire section has no relevance to the article as non of its about the Tully clan, but people called Maeltuile. Well the mac Crundmaíl are probably connected, however they could come from any of the Crundmaíl's sons.

Archbishops of Armagh and Tully Church Ties
The Tullys have a unique and longstanding relationship with the Church throughout their history, including several with ties to Ireland's most senior primatial see   Several descendants of the name have been mentioned as Bishops and Archbishops in Ireland. According to Andrew Tully, Historian and Clan Pursuviant, "The undernoted records from Annals of the Four Masters pertaining to the 9th century, contain more references to Maeltuile (Maoltuile) than in any other period from 747 to 902 AD."

These include:
 * Suibne nepos mac Crundmaíl, Bishop of Armagh (sometimes called Suibne nepos Mruichessaich). "Nepos" word originally meaning “grandson” or “descendant". In this case it refers to "Suibne nepos (descended from) mac (Irish- son of) Crundmaíl".  He is probably named for Crundmáel mac Suibni.
 * Máel Cobo mac Crundmaíl, Abbott of Armagh- a descendant of Crundmaíl. Restored 877/8; the four years assigned to his successor Cathassach mac Robartaig, who died in retirement in 883, suggests that Máel Cobo's capture by the Norse in 879 put an end to his tenure of office; died 888.
 * Maeltuile, Abbot of Terryglass. d. 747
 * Maeltuile became the Abbot of Beannchair In 812 AD, and is later presumed to be the same Maeltuile (Mac an Gobhann), Abbot of Ara Airthir who died in 865 AD.
 * Maeltuile of Leithghlinn d.839 AD
 * Donnacan, son of Maeltuile, scribe and anchorite, died in Italy, 842 AD
 * Fearghal, son of Bran, son of Maeltuile, son of Tuathal, lord of Muscraighe, was killed, and Caicher, lord of Feara Maighe, 843 AD
 * Maeltuile, Abbot of Imleach Iubhair, d.856 AD
 * Dubhthach, scribe, anchorite, and bishop, a man who excelled all the people of Europe in wisdom and learning, and who was Abbot of Cill Achaidh in 821 and son of Maeltuile, died 867-9
 * Colga, son of Maeltuile, Abbot and anchorite of Cluain Conaire Tomain 879 AD
 * Maeltuile, Bishop and Abbot of Tuilen 870 AD
 * Maeltuile of Cluain Uinnseann, Abbot of Lughmhadh 871 AD
 * Eoghan and Maeltuile Ua Cuana, two abbots of Cluain Mic Nois, died 873 AD
 * Maeltuile, son of Fethghnach, Abbot of Glas Noedhen 882 recte 885 AD
 * Clothchu, son of Maeltuile, Prior of Cluain Iraird 883 AD
 * Maeltuile, son of Dunghal, Abbot of Beannchair 884 AD
 * Maeltuile, son of Cuilen, Abbot of Cluain Fearta Brenainn 885 AD
 * Oenacan, son of Maeltuile, Vice Abbot of Daimhliag Cianain, died 890 AD

Mabuska (talk) 13:07, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Lineage
Firstly the entire "lineage" isn't required in the way that its given. In fact it is just a list of kings not a proper lineage. The dates are also known as suspect as it includes pseudo-historical figures etc.

Also it is highly contraditory to other information given elsewhere. It opens up and states that Máel Tuile is the second son of Maelfithrig. Firstly the Annals of Ulster make mention of Maelfithrig and his son Maeldoon but no mention of Máel Tuile. Secondly how can Maelfithrig be his father when the Crundmáel mac Suibni article attests that he is a son of Crundmáel instead? Its the same guy as he has the exact same kids attested in this article, i.e. Fland mac Máele Tuile and Urthuile mac Máele Tuile.

This statement in the article: Urthuile mac Máele Tuile (sometimes called Aurthuile Ua Crunnmaeil) sort of backs up the Crundmáel parentage of Máele Tuile.

Mabuska (talk) 13:47, 3 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I have entirely rewrote the "history" and lineage section of the Tully's into something more appropriate and relevant. Its based on various sources, notably the Annals of the Four Masters, Tigernach, and information from some of the linked articles. Mabuska (talk) 15:04, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Tullys of Kilkenny
The following section i don't believe is relevant to this article, and the general jist of it has now ben covered over at Tully. The following link you provided makes it clear that not everybody of Tully, MacTully, Flood etc. surname are connected or related. Rather this section fits better in the Tully article as it does not prove any relation to the Clan Tully.

Tullys in Kilkenny

According to O'Hart, the Floods of Kilkenny are descended from the Irish Tully, and not of English origin "as many of the ancient clans of the Maoltuiles and of the MacThellighs (MacTullys or Tullys) changed the name to "Flood" — thus translating the name from the Irish "Tuile," which signifies a flood."

Mabuska (talk) 16:43, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Redirect
I'm redirecting the article due to the various issues that dominate it. Original research, unreliability of sources, and some notability issues amongst other things. The article it redirects to Tully (surname) has been written to conform to Wikipedia manual of styles and standards better and ensure that the reader gets a more unbiased and muddled version of the history of the surname which is fully backed by reliable 3rd party sources. In fact it even got a C rating which is good for a brand new article created on the fly. Mabuska (talk) 19:07, 13 February 2011 (UTC)