Talk:Clandeboye massacre

Reason for PROD removal
Reason for PROD removal: issue stated as "Article is entirely biased original research. The only source provided makes no mention or refers to any kind or form of massacre or anything implied or stated by this article". Source states "most of his attendants being slain", ie multiple killings. The article is not well referenced and may have quality and POV issues, but I do not believe its removal would be uncontroversial. RebeccaGreen (talk) 00:36, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The problem is did such an event known as the Betrayal of Clannabuidhe actually occur? I've never heard of it in all of my years of interest in Ulster history. I may have missed it somehow. All I can find is Wiki clones of this article, a book from 2017 which appears to be influenced by this article and a poem with this exact article title from 100 years ago by a woman (Carbery) who has made up stuff before in poems which are still taken for fact by people today, i.e. the Ballad of Roddy McCorley, and maybe her poem the influence for this article. I will need to scour my library of sources to see if it is basically an invention of different events given a single narrative. Mabuska (talk) 13:40, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Having scoured through a few notable academic resources I find no mention of such a "betrayal" and associated massacre. Indeed the lede is highly inaccurate: Sir Brian mcPhelim Bacagh O'Neill was actually hanged for his role in opposing a local plantation (via burning what he came across) near and in his lands by the 1st Earl of Essex and Sir Thomas Smith in the 1570s (maybe the book The Plantation of Ulster by the Ulster Historical Foundation, ISBN 978-1-903688-00-7 is wrong). If indeed there was such a shocking treacherous betrayal and was that notable for its treachery, it certainly was never notable enough to find mention in my sources (including the Oxford Companion to Irish History, Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0-199-234837). I find it ironic that the article of Brian O'Neill himself is a virtual copy and paste of this one and by the same editor, and both have high POV issues.
 * This article PROD was wrongly removed and at best this article should be merged to Brian O'Neill's as an event of his life (when academic evidence is provided for the claims), however as they are nearly identical as it is, there is no need for this article at all especially with a title that quite clearly comes from a poem. Mabuska (talk) 15:44, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree that the article has some issues—it needs references and some of it needs to be re-written—but I don't think it should be deleted. With a quick search I found the following reliable sources which mention this massacre: "Peace, sociality, and friendship, were established between Brian, the son of Felim Bacagh O'Neill, and the Earl of Essex; and a feast was afterwards prepared by Brian, to which the Lord Justice and the chiefs of his people were invited; and they passed three nights and days together pleasantly and cheerfully. At the expiration of this time, however, as they were agreeably drinking and making merry, Brian, his brother, and his wife, were seized upon by the Earl, and all his people put unsparingly to the sword, men, women, youths, and maidens, in Brian's own presence. Brian was afterwards sent to Dublin, together with his wife and brother, where they were cut in quarters. Such was the end of their feast. This unexpected massacre, this wicked and treacherous murder of the lord of the race of Hugh Boy O'Neill, the head and the senior of the race of Eoghan, son of Niall of the Nine Hostages, and of all the Gaels, a few only excepted, was a sufficient cause of hatred and disgust of the English to the Irish."
 * The Annals of the Four Masters entry for the year 1574:

"Then followed Essex's essays in frightfulness. Brian MacPhelim of Clandeboye and a party which he had assembled to hold a parley at Belfast in October 1574 were attacked without warning by an English force. Two hundred were killed. Brian, his wife and his brother were taken to Dublin, where they were executed. This, the Irish annalists were soon to say, 'was a sufficient cause of hatred and disgust [of the English] to the Irish'."
 * A New History of Ireland: Volume III (1991), p.98

"In November 1574 he apparently came to terms with Sir Brian, only to stage a surprise attack at the end of a celebratory feast, slaughtering between one and two hundred of the Clandeboye O'Neills. Sir Brian himself, with his wife and his brother, were sent to Dublin and later executed as traitors."
 * Contested Island: Ireland 1460-1630 by S J Connolly (2009), p.147

"Meanwhile, Essex vented his bitterness and frustration upon Sir Brian McPhelim O'Neill: 'I have apprehended Sir Brian, his half- brother Rory Oge MacQuillan, Brian's wife, and certain of the principal persons, and put others to the sword, to the number of 200 in all places, whereof forty were his best horsemen'. This noteworthy event took place in Belfast..."
 * Elizabethan Ireland by Grenfell Morton (1971), p.40

"Essex's version of his actions was less colorful: 'With the advice and consents of all the captains in the camp, I gave order to lay hold of Brian in the castle of Belfast where he lay. Resistance was offered by his men lodged in the town and 125 of them were slain. Sir Brian and his wife, Rory Óg and Brian Mac Revelin were taken'. If the account from the Annals is correct, Essex's plan succeeded because he understood that Gaelic hospitality would compel O'Neill to entertain his English guests."
 * Ireland in the Virginian Sea: Colonialism in the British Atlantic by Audrey Horning (2013), p.69

"Perhaps Essex’s worst atrocity occurred at the Christmas feast at Belfast in 1574 given by Sir Brian McPhelim, when Essex—according to himself, suspecting treachery—had all 200 participants, of whatever age or sex, killed. The Four Masters claim that this massacre was gratuitous murder without cause. Sir Brian himself, his wife and his brother Rory Óg were arrested, brought to Dublin and executed."
 * This 2012 article from History Ireland:

There are other sources too, and these could all be used to improve the article. ~Asarlaí 17:05, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you Asarlai for the sources. Though the AFM can hardly be called reliable and worthy of use in this case, at least the others are. At best since it has been established a massacre did occur though not as sensational as the article proclaims, I suggest it be merged with the Brian O'Neill article to which I have started improving. It would seem to be a seminal event in his life that ultimately resulted in his imprisonment and death, however not deserving of an article with a title from a poem composed centuries later and not used by any of the above sources. Mabuska (talk)
 * Brian_McPhelim_O'Neill is the perfect place to properly detail what happened according to the sources you provided above, and this neologism titled and highly skewed article namespace can be done away with. Mabuska (talk) 14:45, 23 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I've just finished re-writing and expanding the article. I think this massacre is noteworthy enough to warrant its own article, mainly given the fact that up to 200 people were killed, during peace talks, and this was said to have influenced Irish opinion. It's a higher death toll than some of the battles fought in Ireland in this era, for which we have articles. The massacre is also mentioned in a number of books on Irish history (old and new), and was the subject of a poem by a somewhat notable Irish poet. I agree that the name could be better, but as far as I can see it's the only one we've got. If you think it should be merged with the Brian O'Neill article you could make this a formal merge request or ask for input from more editors. ~Asarlaí 23:18, 28 November 2018 (UTC)