Talk:Clandestine chemistry

Where is this page going? Also, origin of term?
I have not heard of the term "clandestine chemistry" until I saw a link to it on the Acetic anhydride page. Who coined this term, and where is it used? Furthermore, the page as it stands has almost no sources.

71.241.75.170 (talk) 04:10, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I thought the term was "home chemistry"? I guess this is more specific since it covers illegal chemicals to make, such as crystal meth or explosives or chemical weapons.  75.70.90.36 (talk) 02:02, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Crank Case Etymology
This is most likely a Urban Myth\Foly Etymology. It lacks verifiability and there are numerous variations on the theme ie. is the crankcase a hiding place or a reaction vessel? Is it a motorcycle crankcase or a truck crankcase? The Historical Dictionary of American Slang has "crank" back to 1969, but the "crankcase" explanation did not appear until 1995 (S.F. Chronicle, "The Kiss of Meth", 8/27/95). Overall I think it is more likely that it is called crank because it "cranks" up the user.

Holme053 20:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

MDMA production
I forgot to mention this in the comment line of my edit so I will place it here. I removed the words "in theory" from the note about mdma synthesis from safrol or other plant sources. There is no debate over whether or not naturally occuring oils can provide the precursers for mdma. In fact, it is fairly common for small scale labs to obtain their safrol from sassafras oil. It is for this reason that sassafras oil is a watched chemical in the US.

Foolishben 21:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Uncle Fester as a source
By whom is Uncle Fester considerd a source of not-so-good resource for illegal drug manifacture ?

If you will check out alt.drugs.chemistry, you will see that much of the clandestine drug syntheses world has mixed feelings about Fester. His research is adapted from US Patents and Journal Articles, so some of his information is faulty. When reading his books, you can see what information is gold and what information is questionable; the good information he presents is what he has extensive personal experience with, while the questionable information is just stuff he read in US Patents and Journal Articles. You can see examples in his Secrets of Methamphetamine Manufacture book, half of it is stuff he has done himself, and is able to explain rather extensively, but some other syntheses in that book are somewhat unexplained. Two other examples are his Home Workshop Explosives book and Practical LSD Manufacture book. In Home Workshop Explosives, he details how to synthesize nitroglycerin; which he does exceedingly well. His instructions for many of the explosives in that book are dead-on accurate to the finest detail. In Practical LSD Manufacture, however, he has no experience whatsoever with LSD syntheses, and all of the writing is based off of extensive reading he has done -- needless to say, Practical LSD Manufacture was not a well-recieved book by underground drug chemists.

Methamphetamine Lab Seizures in the US data wrong?
Where's that data got from, DEA site states different readings; see: Anyway, I'm making nice SVG graph from the DEA site's data, if it is correct. --Jannev 18:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's the chart if you want to use it:

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jannev (talk • contribs) 19:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC). (And a div so it doesn't break the next section heading. ⇌Elektron 12:39, 24 September 2007 (UTC))

Move article?
How does everyone feel about moving this article to something like Drug laboratory, Clandestine laboratory, Clandestine drug laboratory, etc.? --Daniel11 11:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Not unless you have a good reason to move it. I think it's fine where it is — I suspect "clandestine chemistry" is the most common name for it. "Drug laboratory" is the wrong name — it sounds more like a pharmaceutical lab. ⇌Elektron 12:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is AIDSvideos.org's Meth script cited as a source?
There is what appears to be a footnote on this page, right below the table of meth lab seizure data, citing a script at AIDSvideos.org as the source. This appears to be an error. If you look at the cited script, it doesn't include lab seizure data. Please edit this page to either assign the citation to a fact that is in fact stated in my script or remove the citation. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.223.173 (talk) 21:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Acetic Anhydride
There appears to be a mistake in the number of kilograms of AA in this sentence: "The DEA reports that as of June 2001, some 125 consignments of acetic anhydride had been tracked totalling 61,890,2223 kilograms." I don't know the source of this number, so I don't know the correct number, but I'm guessing someone just typed an extra two. Please remove this number or correct it as necessary and cite the source. Thank you. 68.97.10.70 (talk) 03:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

USA
This article seems very based around the US. If anyone could fix it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you,210.84.0.6 (talk) 08:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC) anyone is welcome to add to this.70.15.191.119 (talk) 08:25, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, considering that the USA is politically more interested in it... It's a moral crisis.  The impression I've gotten is that it's hyped more in the USA.  Kind of ironic, considering that we force children to take Ritalin.  Oooooooops.  XD
 * I am curious as to what a map of use-per-capita looks like. There must be good estimates for creating one?  The problem is one of consistent methodology in statistics-gathering.  75.70.90.36 (talk) 02:08, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Corn Whiskey
Corn whiskey as in "Corn whiskey" as you have it labeled is moonshine. bourbon is bourbon. Bourbon is a whiskey made with Corn but it isn't corn whiskey. Tennessee Whiskey is Tennessee Whiskey. It may be made with Corn but again it isn't corn whiskey. US Moonshine which is made of primarily corn. Bourbon and Tennessee Whiskey are not made primarily of corn. 70.15.191.119 (talk) 08:25, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Exceedingly Biased POV in this article

 * Seems to be taken verbatim from a US Drug Enforcement Agency handout. In fact the only source listed is the DEA.
 * The "Breaking Bad" scenario seems to match the actual reality; NOT "Gangs" and "Organized Crime." My experience goes back to 1980's working at a Chemical Supply House (later folding because it owned an EPA Superfund site.) Suspect purchasers included BioChem Graduate students, Biology and Forestry Dept professors from the University of Washington.
 * P2P or phenyl-2-propanone was used to make Benzedrine (racemic amphetamine) by Oregom biker gangs in the 60's and 70's; DEA documentation is heavy on ancient history and questionable research. (Is there even a market for Quaaludes, methaqualone, in this era?)
 * The reactions used to make drugs have changed in fashion over the years. As noted above, labs have become smaller scale and lower tech. For Meth: P2P in the 70's, Phosphorus/Iodine in the 80's, Lithium/Ammonia in the 90's, in this millennium it is Lithium (from Eveready AA battery) and isoPropyl Alcohol in a polycarbonate 2 liter Coke bottle.
 * Drug use patterns have changed. Since wrong optical isomers have no activity, preference for optically active precursors like Ephedrine and Pseudophedrine (same optical activity at nitrogen) make D N-MethylAmphetamine the more in-demand drug. Cocaine Hydrochloride = old; "Crack Cocaine" = new: Cocaine is not the major alkaloid in industrially grown Coca plant, but the other (usually discarded or requiring expensive reprocessing) alkaloids are active when smoked. (Cocaine is Benzoyl Ecognine. Most alkaloids are Cinnamyl Ecognine, can be oxidized, or Truxillic acid Ecognine derivative, not oxidized. C.F. Coca-cola's original cinnamon flavor. Oxidation destroys 2/3 of alkaloid; old school was to recover the Ecognine and treat with Benzoyl Chloride. Pure (white) Heroin powder or Mexican "black tar" Heroin. (Note the color is not due to "using Acetic Acid" but because pure Morphine alkaloid is not separated from the raw poppy resin, which is used as-is in "tar".
 * "Clandestine" does not seem to cover the corporate email IDs (SA, Asia) of those posting questions on Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. about making MMDA precursors. Certainly drug labs like BALCO (yes, steroids are illegal drugs also) and "Spice" (et other designer drugs) manufacturers are in the open in the US; even less "clandestine" in India, South America, et al.
 * Sassafras oil is listed as carcinogen by FDA and no longer used to make Root Beer. Most MDA is now made from Vanillin, derived from processing of wood pulp for paper. Nitroethane is also an archaic DEA belief, having long ago been replaced by nitration (NO2 addition) of the intermediate styrene i.e. isosafrole.
 * Wiki Acetic Anhydride "3.2×10^9 kilograms of acetic" used to make plastics (Cellulose acetate, vinyl acetate, et al) so the ~700,000 kg "tracked" sounds like a self serving DEA statement. Does the author of this article bother to check facts even when the data is so far from plausible?
 * Industrial Ephedrine does not come from plants; it is made by fermentation of Benzaldehyde and Glucose to Phenylacetylcarbinol.
 * US Law enforcement only interdicts an estimated 1/10th of actual US usage, a trivial sum considering the "wholesale" cost of production. A recent online debate among Forensics professionals noted that the biggest suppliers of illicit drugs was multinational pharmaceutical companies; prescription pain medication abuse now outweighs imported heroin.
 * On a similar subject. US Cannabis production far exceeds that imported; much of it on smaller midwest farms in the corn- and wheat-belts (trying to compete with agribusiness benefitting from Federal largesse.)
 * Procedures for making Meth in a coke bottle and for making explosives etc are posted on Youtube and other video sites.
 * Guns and explosives are so exceedingly easy to obtain, only a moron (e.g. the guy who recrystalized a kilo of aged Lead Azide at home) would make their own. (Well Ammonium Nitrate and Oil is hard to beat on price/performance c.f. recent fertilizer plant explosion.) A local gun shop was selling used AK-47s for $50, owner said it was 400% mark-up; he said the same dealer could supply "other surplus military goods" at similar prices. Although homemade explosives can indeed be deadly, they are usually of limited power (like Acetone peroxide), besides most "red states" allow reloaders to buy Gunpowder with no ID. (Of course several incidents of incompetent bomb squad officers blowing themselves up disposing of gunpowder at disposal sites.) Nitromethane (requires high energy detonator) is available in tank car quantities; Fuel-Air explosives (usually accidental or arsons) are simple and unregulated (also c.f. Molotov cocktail). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.76.59.220 (talk) 13:41, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Now wait... It can't be an automatic version.  Automatics are so rare that people pay a premium to get one legally that was grand-fathered in.  We're talking the price of a car.  And black powder is the stuff that is dry and thus horribly likely to experience electrostatic discharge.  This is true even of stuff like flour and laser printer toner although they don't have the built-in oxidizer, thank goodness!  The gray 'gun powder' stuff is more gel-like and less accident-prone.  Yeah, I can still see it catching fire by some idiocy, though.  Irony is that the 'red states' have it legal for safety and environment.  You wouldn't want people making their own nitrates.  Same with mixing poor-quality ingredients to make black powder.  You want consistent quality or otherwise people will be tempted to use too much!  75.70.90.36 (talk) 02:27, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

List of precursors
This is a (partial) list of the chemicals controlled in order to allow us to still buy the allergy pills without a prescription. Don't ask me why they didn't just make the key drugs prescription-only and scheduled along with other drugs that have a restriction on supplies. I put the name and at least 1 legitimate residential/industrial use each in this list. Not all of these are heavily controlled. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEA_list_of_chemicals

Acetone (Nail polish remover/solvent, starter in chemical synthesis, plastics/Plexiglas) Aluminum foil (cooking) Anhydrous Ammonia (explosives, refrigeration, fertilizer, tons of chemicals are made from it) Ether (anesthetic[rarely/obsolete?], fuel [like in starter fluid], solvent) Hydrochloric Acid (disinfectant, bleaching agent, PVC plastic, Vitamin C) Lithium (batteries) Magnesium (Do I even have to say? Try making airplanes without it for example...) Lye (drain cleaner, photography, pH adjustment, many other chemicals made from it) Phosphorus (matches, food production, semiconductors, fertilizer, pesticides, cleaners) Potassium permanganate (Rockets/strong but nontoxic oxidizer, disinfectants, foods) Salt (food, ice melt) Sulfuric/sulfurous acids (Top used industrial chemical? VERY long list) 75.70.90.36 (talk) 03:57, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Clandestine chemistry
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Clandestine chemistry's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Inoue": From History and culture of substituted amphetamines:  From Club drug:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 16:12, 28 November 2019 (UTC)