Talk:Clara Schumann/Archive 1

POV bit
Could anyone try to make the following excerpt a bit more NPOV?

''Despite gaining greater recognition, her music is often described as "intimate" or "personal." Such descriptions are common for the work of female artists who are stereotyped as creating personal, introspective art; whereas men's art is considered universal and introspective. This is seen clearly when Chopin's work is described as "intensely emotional" instead of "intimate" or "personal." As is also common of female artists, she is often referred to by her first name and probably her last name, while her husband is by default Schumann.'' -Missmarple 19:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

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Robert's(?) Piano Concerto in A
I'm listening to this again for the first time in some years. I have never been able to get my mind around the idea that this is Schumann. It doesn't sound like his other piano music to me or much like the symphonies. It's not like it's an early work or something. The much more sophisticated Kreisleriana (1836) and Fantasy (1838) preceded it. My Groves says it was written in 1841 and 1845, premiered in 1846 by Clara. Could it be that it is actually written by Clara and passed of as Robert's so it would be heard? Robert and Clara were married in 1841.

--Dave Yost 19:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The Piano Concerto in A minor, op. 54 is most definitely Schumann's work, ROBERT that is. I have no idea why you would think this work was "ghost written" by Clara. It certainly sounds like Schumann to me! In any case, it would have made more sense for the reverse to be true. In the late 1830's and early 1840's it was Clara's name NOT Robert's that was famous as a musician. At this time, Robert was better known as a music critic for his journal, Neue Zeitschrift für Musik.

This concerto gave Schumann considerable trouble and it went through a few changes before he finally came to settle on the form we know it today. It initially was written as a Phantasie for piano and orchestra in one movement. I believe there are still sketches of this work in Robert's hand extant as well as numerous references to his work-in-progress in his correspondence. I hope this info puts your doubts to rest.

- El Chileno Chido 04:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * In any case, we would need an external source if we wanted to say anything about this.  We couldn't do any original research and come up with a different composer from the one that appears in every reference book.  JackofOz 03:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Who was she
what is she about where was her birth at?Some of us want to know these kind of things?????????????????????????????????//// —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.158.251 (talk) 02:39, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * "what is she about where was her birth at?" - you're never going to get the answer to that question (I assume it's intended to be a question), because it's completely incomprehensible. Sorry.  --  JackofOz (talk) 11:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

User : 24.80.0.197 deleted portions of text
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Clara Schumann page (again) vandalized by this User
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Name/Title
I wonder how people would feel if the entire page is moved to the title Clara Wieck Schumann instead of just Clara Schumann? While I acknowledge that much of her career revolved around performance of her husband's work, as the article mentions, Clara [Wieck, not yet] Schumann was a brilliant concert pianist from age thirteen, six years before her marriage to Robert.

Melizabethfleming 19:33, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

No details given about how her children died or how she was able to parent 7 children with a mentally unstable husband and some of her children ailing. ?

Why do you write anything about the children ? 4 of them died before her parents (1 in infancy, 3 in the late teens) and 4 outlived there parents.

The names are: Marie, Elise, Julie, Emil, Ferdinand, Ludwig, Eugenie and Felix. Emil died in infancy, Julie and Felix of tuberculosis and Ferdinand of taking drugs. Andrea - --80.121.72.110 (talk) 11:18, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Clara Wieck's piano concerto
The original wording of the article reads as, " At age fourteen she wrote her first piano concerto ". As there aren't any other piano concerti by Clara Wieck Schumann, I deleted the "first". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akdoganerkan (talk • contribs) 13:32, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 September 2012
Goat fucking? Really? Please remove that line.

61.95.193.231 (talk) 08:57, 13 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Already done. It was only there for a minute or so. The article has now been temporarily semi-protected. Favonian (talk) 09:00, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Woman Composer
I'm somewhat surprised that there isn't some sort of section dedicated to Clara's influence as a woman composer. Perhaps not even "a" woman composer, but, for her time, "THE" woman composer! I would like to recommend that some space be dedicated to highlighting this. It's already mentioned in passing on the page, but I think that this perspective could vastly increase the depth of this article. What were her struggles as a woman composer? (one of the quotes points at this...) What was her influence as a woman composer? What did her husband think of this? What did society think of this? Was she encouraged, or discouraged by those around her?

There are books dedicated to the study of Clara Schumann as the first prominent woman composer -- so those could do for references... Sir Ian (talk) 17:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)


 * A near-contemporary of Clara's, Fanny Mendelssohn, sister of Felix, was another rather important woman composer. And historically, centuries before there had been Hildegarde von Bingen, a leading composer (not only woman composer) of her era. The Kapralova Society collects some information on women composers. I would say that Fanny got more discouragement than Clara did. Some compositions of Fanny's were represented as being Felix's until once Felix had to admit shamefacedly (to Queen Victoria) what had happened. Marlindale (talk) 04:07, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * That's very interesting. I'm guessing the society is named after Vítězslava Kaprálová? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:20, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Brahms's first piano concerto
The article until now said under "Later career" that she "played a particular role in restoring Brahms's D minor concerto to the general repertory; it had fallen out of favour after its premiere, and was only rehabilitated in the 1870s, thanks mainly to the efforts of Clara ... and Brahms himself." I'm afraid there are several things wrong with this. One is the reference, a sleeve note. I tried to verify it in a primary source, Litzmann (vol. 2) biography of Clara based on diaries and letters, and in sources about Brahms. Instead I found that of the first five public performances of the concerto, only one, the third, in Brahms's home city of Hamburg, had been a success. So the concerto had not yet been in favor by the 1870s. During that decade Brahms and Clara each performed the solo part once publicly. It was brought into the general repertory rather in performances by Hans von Bülow, beginning in 1882. He was well situated to do so as a concert pianist and conductor of an orchestra, the Berlin Philharmonic. He went on concert tours, playing the concerto. There are things that can be said about Clara's relation to the concerto as it was being written, which I hope to get to later, but I'm going to delete the inaccurate paragraph. Marlindale (talk) 20:15, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Who was the other pianist at her last concert?
If "the last work she played was Brahms's Variations on a Theme by Haydn, in the piano-duet version", who was the other pianist? -- JackofOz (talk) 11:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I finally tracked it down. It was James Kwast.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:06, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

What to include in repertoire?
I had thought to include sonatas for violin and piano, but I saw that Beethoven's which have WP articles are called "Violin Sonata no. 5 (Beethoven)" or the like, so it seems the violin owns these more than the piano does. I guess I won't list those. Similarly also for cello and piano sonatas, or any single other instrument and piano? I do plan to include pieces for two pianos or piano four hands, piano quartets (with three strings), and piano quintets (with four strings). Marlindale (talk) 04:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Creating a stand-alone compositions page
I'm separating out Clara Schumann's compositions from her biography page. At first, these new articles will likely just be basic facts from the scores, but over the next few days, I hope to flesh as many of them out with background context as possible. I'm still new to Wikipedia, though, and I hope I'm doing this correctly! CherylFM (talk) 00:56, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

"Quotations" section
I have removed the "Quotations" section, as WP is not a collection of quotations not used in the article body text. &mdash;George8211 / T 20:40, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

There were just two quotations, one by Clara herself and one by Robert. It does seem unusual to have such a section, and I don't see a reason to keep these quotations. Marlindale (talk) 00:46, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * If you are looking to build consensus, you have my support here. It was not a violation of policy, and added value to the article.  Scr ★ pIron IV 13:28, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I see your reasoning. I'm going to see if I can put them back as part of prose, rather then on their own. Thoughts? &mdash;George8211 / T 14:56, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I have no issues with that, although - from an aesthetics standpoint - an external quotation can be as valuable as an image. Just food for thought.   Scr ★ pIron IV 15:18, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * In WP:LONGQUOTE it says sternly "Do not insert any number of quotations in a stand-alone quote section", but if they're in the other sections it should be fine I think. &mdash;George8211 / T 15:22, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Absolutely; in the same way I would avoid putting an image into its own section. I think we are on the same page.  My only point is that it would be a net loss to bury a lovely quote in the middle of a wall of text; but I can see that it's not what you menat.  Scr ★ pIron IV 15:25, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I've tried putting them back. &mdash;George8211 / T 15:34, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Orchestras in London, 19th century
The article mentions two, London Philharmonic Society and the New Philharmonic Society. It seems that the Philharmonic Society of London was formed in 1813 and changed its name to Royal Philharmonic Society in 1912. The New Philharmonic Society can be found under Wikisource, A Dictionary of Music and Musicians, by George Grove, vol. 2, MacMillian, London, 1900, as existing 1852 to 1879. How best should one refer to the latter orchestra? Marlindale (talk) 00:41, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Which if any YouTubes to include among External Links?
If the title of the "March" is in German, shouldn't it be 'Marsch"? It and the Scherzo have no CDS that I could find. But according to the Legacy section, the Scherzo was "popular" and was in her early repertoire. Her Trio in G minor was 'probably her masterpiece" according to George Hall's short bio in Oxford Companion to Music. It has several CDs. There is a YouTube of the Trio but I found it only preceded by publicity for a commercial product. Marlindale (talk) 21:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Do we want what was popular in her own lifetime or what's popular now? Piano variations looks pretty popular, apparently by Micaela Gelius, but uncredited, so not ideal. Also near the top of the ToyTunes popularity list is this by Jozef De Beenhouwer from 2011, but it does go on for an hour and a quarter. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:45, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Here's the Adante from the G minor trio, Op. 17. Here's a live version, by the Galos Piano Trio at St Martin-in-the-Fields in May 2015. And here's another extract by Gelius, Krstic and Haack. No adverts in sight for UK viewers for any of these three? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

In what years did Clara take concert tours to England?
Before I began editing this article, it mentioned 1856, but not 1857 in which she also went. But then from about 10 years later, it made rather precise statements such as all but 4 years in a certain span of decades. These were not documented. One could probably find a lot from systematic search of Litzmann, but I don't plan to do that. There is also information from the St. James's hall programmes. I will look over Litzmann and pick out some trips if they seem more interesting than others. By the way I believe Clara toured to Russia just once (no, twice) Marlindale (talk) 22:06, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Reich, 2001, p. 267, lists countries and years of tours. Russia, 1844 and 1864. Some summary information will be put in the article. Marlindale (talk) 22:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Drawing of [Clara] Schumann (date unknown)?
I'm not sure if the drawing belongs in the section of text where it is, in other words, 1856 or later. Without a date, the drawing may not be useful?

The book Reich (2001) has Illustrations listed on p viii including several pictures of Clara. I don't see the drawing in our article among them. Some to consider: p. 105 with Robert, 1847; p. 140 with daughter Marie, about 1845. Marie was born in 1841 and so would have been about age 4. Marlindale (talk) 04:57, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Another drawing in Reich p. 74 is of "Clara Wieck, age 20, shortly before her marriage." I agree with the change from "Schumann" to "Clara" in our caption, but again, the drawing may not be useful if we can't tell if it was made before the marriage or after? Marlindale (talk) 05:08, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Is the drawing on p.74 is a different one? I think the one we currently have is useful, even without knowing it's exact date. But I agree that makes it difficult to place in the article. Many articles have images that are wholly undated. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:39, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The drawing with "date unknown" is different from any of those which are illustrations in Reich (2001). I tried Google for images of Clara Schumann. Under 1819-1896/1996 [100th anniversary of her death], www.geneva.edu, is a page "Clara '96 at ClaraSchumann.net'. But I couldn't yet find any date or her age in the "date unknown" drawing although it is there. Anyhow, where should it go in the article? Maybe somewhere near "Marriage to Robert"? Marlindale (talk) 21:49, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a good idea. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:53, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Done. Marlindale (talk) 18:58, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

one of the most distinguished pianists of the Romantic era - citation needed
I've been looking for a citation. I found about Liszt, that he "was regarded by many as the supreme piano virtuoso of the 19th century" (Kenneth Hamilton,Oxford Companion to Music, 2002, p. 298). But it seems Liszt stopped giving concerts in 1848; Mendelssohn died in 1847 and Chopin in 1849 (Reich, 2001, p. 256). It seems Clara gave virtuoso recitals while young but later aimed more at presenting music by leading composers. Another competitor I suppose is Hans von Bǖlow. Marlindale (talk) 18:47, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Supplied a citation from Reich: during the time after Robert's death, "hailed as one of the top pianists of the world" Marlindale (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Why cut first name Clara from caption of last image?
I didn't see a reason, have I overlooked something? Marlindale (talk) 00:07, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Only WP:last name, given that the subject is obvious from the name of the article? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:20, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I looked at the WP article Eleanor Roosevelt which has rather a lot of images of her, sometimes with others. In the captions, in the great majority of cases, she is called "Roosevelt." So I'll agree with the usage. Marlindale (talk) 21:39, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm sure there are many such examples. Images offer little chance of confusion with famous husbands. And in this case there are no sisters or daughters either, to worry about. Some lead images in info boxes do without the name altogether and just have a date and/or location. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:56, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

"Clara Trio" YouTube may be misidentified
"Trio No. 1" may be Robert's. I 'll continue looking into it but maybe others can too. Marlindale (talk) 05:39, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

I found on the Web two YouTubes of Clara's G minor trio, which does seem to be a different piece. So I guess in fact "Trio no. 1" is Robert's.Marlindale (talk) 06:03, 13 January 2016 (UTC) Confirmed that "Trio No. 1" is Robert's, in opening credits of that YouTube so deleted it and replaced it by one of Clara's trio. Marlindale (talk) 00:23, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

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Dead link removed and replaced by reference to Reich book. Marlindale (talk) 22:25, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Doctor Who - portrayal in film?
Under Portrayals in Film, there is a paragraph on Doctor Who, a long-running BBC series. It is said that the character Clara Oswald in two (or more?) seasons is "loosely based" on Clara Schumann. How loosely? Closely enough to be called a portrayal? No citations are given in the paragraph. The long article Doctor Who indicates that the BBC series was quite notable. It has 191 footnotes at this writing. Time travel (sci-fi) is part of the plot format of the series. Maybe more than one citation would be needed in or for the paragraph, and/or the paragraph might be revised to be more verifiable? Marlindale (talk) 22:47, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Doctor Who has a lot of sub-articles. In Clara Oswald about the fictional character, I don't see any relation to Clara Schumann beyond the name "Clara". Clara Oswald says she is "initially presented ...as three distinct, though similarly named, people living in different eras of time. The first two incarnations, Oswin Oswald and Clara Oswin Oswald, die during the episode in which they appear. The third incarnation Clara Oswald becomes the Doctor's companion, traveling with him [through time and space] for the remainder of the series as he tries to uncover the mystery of her multiple lives. The mystery is later resolved in "The Name of the Doctor"" (2013), 18 May, the 13th and final episode of the 7th series. Anyhow for a valid reference, a review would be preferable to a WP article, avoiding WP:CIRCULAR. Critic Michael Hogan of The Telegraph 18 May 2013 wrote "we were at last told the truth about companion Clara" (acted by Jenna-Louise Coleman). "She was 'the impossible girl, born to save the Doctor'." What if anything does she have to do with Clara Schumann, please? Marlindale (talk) 22:41, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

I looked for 2014-2015 material. First, "Me" is not a pronoun but an alternate name of the fictional character Ashildr. Clara is said to be a time-travelling school teacher from 21st century England. Clara is said to die in the episode Face the Raven, broadcast 21 November 2015, the 10th episode of the 9th series. "Clara mentions having a romantic relationship with writer Jane Austen". Her life span 1775-1817 did not overlap with Clara Schumann's 1819-1896. Still haven't found a relation between the real and science-fictional Claras. Macmarl (talk) 19:07, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

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relationship with brahms
it is clear (at least from the article on brahms) that there was a significant personal relationship with brahms the elaboration of which would add greatly to the article about clara — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.128.175.135 (talk) 17:12, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Through the end of 2013 or so, the relationship was unclear in the Brahms article, which up to sometime a few months ago listed at least one unreliable source, which claimed that all correspondence between Clara and Brahms had been destroyed. That had been Brahms's intention, but it was far from carried out by Clara, as two thick volumes of correspondence in German had been preserved and published. Still, for a slow German reader, it was laborious although possible to get information. A handier reference and especially relevant to this article on Clara is the Litzmann biography of Clara based on diaries and letters, translated into English. The book is already cited in one footnote in this article. By listing it as a Source it might be easier to make multiple references to it. Also, the violinist Joseph Joachim was another good friend of Clara, and they did a lot of concertizing together in England and some elsewhere. Some sentences in the article on Joachim may belong more here than there and others might be mentioned both places. I had been holding off on editing this article on Clara, thinking that the omission of such a such a big factor in her life as her friendship with Brahms must be intentional. If anyone watching this article did feel that way, please have a look at the Brahms and Joachim articles as they now are and let me know. When I have a chance (I also work on some other articles in parallel) and if it will not be stepping on anyone's toes, I will make some edits in this article. Marlindale (talk) 03:54, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I added just a little bit suggesting that there might have been something, based on the nature of the letters. I didn't want to add too much as I also was not able to read the German texts directly. --Mammagamma (talk) 19:18, 15 September 2018 (UTC)