Talk:Clare (Dáil constituency)

Untitled
See discussion on Category talk:Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland -BrownHairedGirl 16:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The table
Do we really need the exclusion rankings? This is not generally found on the table of other constituencies. -- Evertype·✆ 09:15, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Athlone–Longford (Dáil Éireann constituency) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:49, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Incorrect Sort Order
User who simply does not accept the normal sort order for candidates in a constituency keeps reverting a properly sorted list to an incorrect party first order in this constituency as well as deleting a candidate added today.

Can you both advise please. Many TIA. Wikimucker (talk) 18:09, 19 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Refs _per candidate_ are not used in any other constituency. Nominations close weds and a single ref to the returning officers list will confirm who gets their papers in later this week for every constituency. Likely RTE will have a canonical list anyway. Wikimucker (talk) 18:23, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Please note that you are NOT the owner of this page. And at least prove the policies you claim, as in "where and when is the decision taken, by whom and where is the vote".   The Banner  talk 18:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * No I am not and nor are you...but I told you to look at 3 example constituencies that I had neither edited mor owned and you did not bother did you???? Wikimucker (talk) 18:47, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * And at least prove the policies you claim, as in "where and when is the decision taken, by whom and where is the vote".  The Banner  talk 18:52, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Try "a quick look see" Wikimucker (talk) 20:56, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Maybe take a wee breath, everyone?

Sure, we will have canonical lists in a few days, and the opportunity for belt-and-braces referencing to both the primary source (returning officers list) and the RTE report. So no rush.

However, if editors do want to put in the time adding sourced entries now, then congrats. Let's not impede their work.

As to sort order, other discussions have always settled on ballot paper order as the most NPOV presentation. See e.g. these discussions. In Irish elections, the order is alphabetical by surname. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs)
 * That is indeed a neutral order of presentation. The Banner  talk 18:52, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Small mod to Election 2016
seeing as this page has your attention tonight.

I noted that electionsireland.org no longer display counts subsequent to count 1. This is their ref for Clare. IIRC the full counts were visible in the past but they are no longer visible and are suboptimal as reflinks for that reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare_(D%C3%A1il_constituency)#cite_note-ei-clare-2016-38

RTE always have election sites as do the Times and they do show all the counts. While the 2016 RTE site is still active it may not be for much longer, 2011 is not there. I also noted that the 2016 data is in _some_ of the snapshots of the RTE pages on the wayback machine but not all of them. I therefore added a link to a snapshot that shows all the 2016 counts, this one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare_(D%C3%A1il_constituency)#cite_note-46

The Irish Times election 2016 site is still alive, here is Clare.

https://www.irishtimes.com/election-2016/clare

This is also in the wayback machine

https://web.archive.org/web/20171122164640/https://www.irishtimes.com/election-2016/clare

Your thoughts on my adding a wayback link for all 39 Election 2016 constituencies would be appreciated. Wikimucker (talk) 20:05, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * More refs is good, Wikimucker! Esp to a reliable source like RTE and the IT.
 * So if you have energy, please do add them. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 20:07, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Will do so, no certainty that electionsireland.org will provide all counts this time, or how long they leave them visible. Wikimucker (talk) 20:14, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Wikimucker. ElectionsIreland is a very handy resource, but like http://www.leighrayment.com/ (widely-cited on UK constituencies), it's not a WP:reliable source. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 21:46, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

, a small note on the wayback, the pages on the RTE and IT election 2016 sites are javascript heavy and graphics heavy and the amount of failed captures by the machine is quite high. One must poke around to find a good one at times. Connacht Ulster and Clare done so far. I can find no alt sources for 2011 data so far though, sorry. Wikimucker (talk) 21:58, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * What about http://IrelandElection.com? It looks fairly detailed though I haven't checked everything on it. They claim to heave the following for Irish General Elections: 2016 to 1982: All Constituencies: All Counts; 1982 to 1922: All Constituencies: First Counts only. Spleodrach (talk) 22:43, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * did you try finding any count other than the first count on Elections Ireland ??? Wikimucker (talk) 23:57, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * On ElectionsIreland.org they are gone for 2016 but are there for 2011 e.g. https://electionsireland.org/counts.cfm?election=2011&cons=32&ref=. On IRelandElection.com, it has detailed count for 2016 e.g. http://irelandelection.com/electiondetail.php?elecid=231&constitid=1&electype=1, so we could use this as a source instead if it proves reliable. Spleodrach (talk) 08:31, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

that is the answer to my prayers. Thank you. , I was completely unaware of Irelandelelection.com until now and it is complete (and free) going back many many years whereas the then rather spiffing RTÉ and IT websites on pre 2016 elections are gone with the dodo and not in the Internet Archive that I can find. This then leaves us over reliant on Elections Ireland who seem betimes more interested in selling their books than in providing the data for free. I checked irelandelection.com in the internet archive and while it is 'not yet archived' it appears to be fully archiveABLE too. Force saves. That would not leave us with dead links were it to disappear in future as the dead link bot would repair them. Your point BrownHairedGirl on what is canonical apropos leighrayment is noted but we are possibly in a bit of a pickle if we rely on one source only and it arbitrarily disappears which is the problem with the 2016 data in all Irish constituencies.

Therefore I propose to modify the 2016 results reflinks for all constituencies to provide 1 ref to the IA version of the RTE 2016 data, 1 ref to irelandelections and finally the preexisting link to electionsireland which comes with count 1 only. (Total 3) I will look at earlier elections again. Wikimucker (talk) 09:22, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * @Wikimucker, I agree. Yet again, Spleodrach has found a solution. (The HSE needs Spleodrach! ) --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 09:42, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Excellent, could both of you, and   look at the Clare page one last time and click through the reflinks for 2016 and 2011 elections. I will replicate this solution and the 3 sources for 2016 across all constituencies AFTER I have confirmed that the irelandelections link is internet archived first. Twill all be done before election day.  Wikimucker (talk) 10:03, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Glad to help. Btw, I think the HSE is beyond help! Spleodrach (talk) 19:58, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Please, can you at least try to save the HSE? Please? The Banner  talk 21:05, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Irelandelection.com have full open counts going back to the 1982 elections in Clare. Electionsireland.org have full open counts for 2007 and 2002 only, the remainder are hidden or not there. Furthermore all the count data from Irelandelections is also in the internet archive...just in case.

I am minded to no longer link to electionsireland from the 2020 count onwards and to use RTÉ links (interim) and RTE plus Irelandelection.com links later on, no point relying on links that may go private, arbitrarily, in future. Wikimucker (talk) 23:56, 20 January 2020 (UTC)


 * reflink sweep across 39 constituencies is now complete. 2016 > 3 reflinks each and 2011 is partially done. Wikimucker (talk) 09:59, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Good work! Spleodrach (talk) 10:03, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

This here single link should double up for a) confirming who is now running in a constituency in 2020 b) the results after the election as a reflink.

https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/results/

It is not 100% populated yet, Waterford is still missing as I write. Wikimucker (talk) 12:08, 23 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Follow Up on this.

,. I added a reflink to each 2020 constituency pointing at irelandelection.com and also had to edit the extant RTE links to land correctly on the count data.

I left any existing dublin returning officer and irish times links in situ but these were only, at best, partially complete nationwide and I only fully completed RTÉ and Irelandelection refs for all 40 of them.

Our old counts ref source, electionsireland.org, still do not allow access to detailed count data for 2016 and while they have opened detailed count data for 2020 at the time of writing I do not have any confidence that this will continue and therefore I have not edited in reflinks to electionsireland.org for any of the 2020 counts. Wikimucker (talk) 11:50, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
 * you also have an interest in this data I noticed (only belatedly), notification ping to this section of the talk page. Wikimucker (talk) 12:27, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the inclusion. I try to use the official department publications where possible over other sources. I have found news sites and other websites occasionally (though in fairness not often) have small errors or omissions. I'll put the links to the department's publication for both 2016 and 2020 below. Just to keep in mind these too are compiled by people and are subject to human errors, a few of which I have already spotted in the 2020 data.

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/electoralProcess/electionResults/dail/2016/2016-04-28_32nd-dail-general-election-results_en.pdf

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/electoralProcess/electionResults/dail/2020/2020-05-01_33rd-dail-general-election-results_en.pdf
 * I would have thought the returning officer is the canonical data, and all other sources are derived from what the returning officer declares formally, in law. The Dublin returning officer is cited as a ref for a number of Dublin constituencies in 2020 (not all) see > https://dublincountyreturningofficer.com/
 * However while there are other county returning offices with websites not every county has a site like that. I remember discussing this earlier this year just before the election as they were a useful source for candidate lists at that time.
 * Your Oireachtas links are one stage away from canonical because each returning officer must 'return' results to the Clerk of the Dáil while the same Clerk of the Dáil equivalent in the Seanad also doubles up as Seanad returning officer IIRC.
 * There is no central repositary like the Clerk of the Dáil for local authorities returns after local elections, again IIRC, and I suspect the same for Europeans too, I think the returning officers there notify the minister for Housing of the results.
 * For that reason I am happier with more than one link or even more than 2 and letting future editors sort it out from referenced material if there is an anomaly. Irelandelections links to 2020 are also loaded (by me) into the wayback machine in case of calumny. The wayback machine cannot 'get' RTÉ links, they all end up as snaps of https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/results/, must be the # after that in https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/results/#/national/clare Wikimucker (talk) 16:42, 25 May 2020 (UTC)