Talk:Clarice Phelps/Archive 1

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because...

Under restructuring, having fresh attention due to a recent press article. If the usual suspects could hold off for a couple of days, we might actually have a good faith discussion about it. --Fæ (talk) 09:03, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The other three discussions weren't good enough? ——  SerialNumber  54129  09:06, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Why am I not surprised to see this? - Sitush (talk) 09:06, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Because you personally hate me? Because that's how you come over every time you write something deliberately nasty about me. --Fæ (talk) 09:23, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't. - Sitush (talk) 10:39, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Comedy
Isn't it funny that an article chastising Wikipedians for deleting this article, opens up with You’ve probably never heard of Clarice Phelps. So why exactly would Wikipedia have an article on someone nobody knows? Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Mr rnddude (talk) 09:19, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * This is not an argument, I could find a great many Featured Articles on topics you have never heard about. Rama (talk) 09:36, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not arguing for deletion. I'm just observing the double standard. The author admits that this person is relatively unknown, but accuses Wikipedia of discrimination for deleting the article of a relatively unknown person. Like you, the only reason the author thinks this article is necessary is because politics and social justice. I've already comment that we keep the article elsewhere, but unlike you I don't behave like commander-in-chief of Wikipedia and so accept that others will have different views and that a consensus will form accordingly. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:16, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) the purpose of an encyclopedia is to teach about things, often obscure ones.
 * 2) yes you are arguing for deletion, and you are also letting far-Right talking point slip. Rama (talk) 12:14, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I !voted to keep the article at AN/I – where its existence was brought to my attention. So no, I'm not arguing for deletion. You've openly admitted being politically motivated: I understand that this disregards the previous Deletion Requests, but doing otherwise would amount to a dismissive and defiant "Wikipedia is not for Social Justice" attitude, which would be irresponsible and deeply suspicious. I don't see how my pointing it out makes me "far right". I think Phelps is entirely deserving of an article, just not for the same reasons as you. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:44, 29 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Notability ≠ fame. Notability also ≠ popular name recognition. Whether the "Man on the Street™" has heard about a particular person is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether there is sufficient sourcing available with with to write an article. Ironically, this article may generate its own notability in the course of being a giant cluster-duck that generates a lot of media coverage about the person, with which we can then write an article based on available sources.  G M G  talk  12:26, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Except that the new "articles" are not about Clarice Phelps, they're about Wikipedia's deletion of the article. Natureium (talk) 13:40, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Not entirely. If others follow suit with Fast Company, and mange to take a long enough break from the wiki-dramah to write multiple paragraphs on Phelps directly, they might actually help solve the problem they're complaining about. And there's nothing saying that being written about in the context of Wikipedia doesn't contribute to notability for the purposes of Wikipedia. That is, in fact, the entirety of the reason that some people are notable to begin with, and we certainly have people who are notable for things far stupider and less meaningful than getting caught up in the public debate about women in STEM, of which Wikipedia is, and will probably always be a part, at least in as much as we continue to be the premier source for public access to free knowledge.  G M G  talk  14:03, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It could happen. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:42, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

"First..." claims at RSN
I opened a thread at WP:RSN. Leviv&thinsp;ich 06:06, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

"Local" award
So in the sentence: In 2017, Phelps won the YWCA Knoxville Tribute to Women Technology, Research, and Innovation Award, which recognises "local women who lead their fields in technology and excel in community service", we need to add the word "local" again, because it's not clear that its "local" from it being the Knoxville tribute (is there an "international Knoxville" award?), or from the quote that says the award recognizes "local women"? Since it already says local twice ("Knoxville" and "local women"), it doesn't need to say local three times. This is the kind of editing where we're just adding "local" to emphasize that the award isn't a big deal, not because it's necessary to clarify understanding for the reader. This is POV editing, and I think it should be reverted. Leviv&thinsp;ich 18:00, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Agree. While YWCA is an international organization, it's unnecessary to specify that an award that is given to "local women" is local. Did I mention it's local? because I'm not sure if I have. So yeah, for the record, it's local. Mr rnddude (talk) 18:31, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * And local awards aren't significant awards. We've been through all this before. - Sitush (talk) 19:16, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Why are we including it if it's not a significant award? I had created many articles on scientists, and while their university touts all their awards, I only include significant ones in the wikipedia articles. Natureium (talk) 20:05, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I removed the mention of her completing the ASVAB because everybody entering the US military takes it – it's an entrance exam for enlistment. I believe this is insignificant trivia. The sentence was uncited, and I don't think any RS has mentioned that she completed the ASVAB. So I boldly took it out. The difference between that and the YWCA award, in my view, is that the YWCA award is in several of the RSes. So it should stay in. Leviv&thinsp;ich 22:05, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't think it should stay in. We simply do not do this and this was explained at the original AfD. Just because something is in several RSs doesn't make it meaningful or encyclopaedic, and I do hope those sources are not the Wikipedian-written op-eds, local newspapers or the YWCA itself. - Sitush (talk) 09:55, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

BLP sourcing
WP:BLP applies, AFAICT, to draft articles as well. The article at present, beyond using non-independent sources (e.g. ORNL), is using WP:BLPPRIMARY sources - e.g.. Could the editors promoting this draft please remove all material sourced to primary sources on this BLP? Icewhiz (talk) 14:23, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * There is no policy prohibiting the citing of primary sources. We do it all the time. Soccerway is a primary source, for example (a contemporaneous record). Leviv&thinsp;ich 14:46, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is policy - WP:BLPPRIMARY forbids it for BLPs.Icewhiz (talk) 14:51, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * No man it doesn't "forbid" it, it expressly permits it. Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. That means you can use it if you use extreme caution. Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies also seems to be followed for the TNU claim (her degree is backed by secondary sources, and anyway, TNU is the best available source for who did and didn't graduate from TNU and I distinctly remember you and I thoroughly beating a horse to death about this at a thankfully-now-deleted talk page ). TAP is a legitimate ABOUTSELF source (TAP is the best available source for who was and wasn't in TAP). The third one–the Texas Masters degree–I agree with you about; there does not seem to be reliable secondary sourcing (or even primary sourcing) that she is a current student or that she graduated. I don't think that tagged claim should stick unless better sourcing can be found. So you get one out of three from me here :-) Leviv&thinsp;ich 06:03, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Read it again. "extreme caution" = "bureaucratic wikispeak for don't do it." It also has two big nots. It has one very specific carveout: "Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies." (and even that qualified with a may + an exceptional claim provision). TAP (on her maiden name, in a list) is not an acceptable source - you don't have a secondary reliable source backing it up. We also don't really have a secondary source backing up her degree - we have PR from her employer - which is hard to describe as reliable. Icewhiz (talk) 10:19, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

At Deletion Review
Please note this article is being discussed at deletion review (DRV) here: Deletion review/Log/2019 May 1. Leviv&thinsp;ich 03:23, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because there are many sources establishing notability, because there is a suspiciously selective enforcement of notability criteria on this case, and because media attention on this article --Rama (talk) 09:34, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Please detail the "suspiciously selective enforcement of notability criteria" used. RobP (talk) 01:38, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Looks good to me
The article has grown substantially beyond stub stage; it is well structured; it is wel referenced; it has an image as illustration; and yes I am interested to learn through Wikipedia who has been instrumental in the discovery of each and every chemical element. Wikipedia is CC-BY-SA. The BY clause is about attribution. IMHO discoverers of chemical elements deserve attribution. The Tennessine article mentions anonymous members of a team who discovered this element. There is no reason for anonimity here: the subject is known and does not want to be anonymous. Not mentioning her there is a failure to attribute. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopaedia with a lack of space. Ad Huikeshoven (talk) 09:19, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I can't see anything in the article to suggest it shouldn't be restored.Nickpheas (talk) 09:58, 2 May 2019 (UTC)


 * You (both) may want to comment at the deletion review. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:50, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Status as master student
On April 3 one editor (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Clarice_Phelps&type=revision&diff=890840455&oldid=890839789&diffmode=source) added a failed verification tag and noted in the edit summary: ¨Does support listing as a msc student - not distance learning¨. I removed the "distance learning" part and removed the failed verification tag. This was reverted by another editor. The subject does appear on the list of master student to which the source points. Ad Huikeshoven (talk) 11:31, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Is there something that connects the entry to the subject of this article? This is one of the problems with dredging details about living people from primary sources. --RL0919 (talk) 13:23, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The name and passport sized photo. I agree that this, as other tidbits of information here, are overuse of primary sources. The student listing isn't dated either. Icewhiz (talk) 13:56, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I think her LinkedIn provides a sufficient WP:ABOUTSELF source for the claims stated therein. When the school and the student both say that the student is a student at the school, I think we can source to both those things and that's sufficient WP:Verification for the claim. Leviv&thinsp;ich  14:28, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * See WP:BLPPRIMARY. Furthermore, if we were to make the dubious assumption this article passes WP:GNG (as if it doesn't, it shall be deleted anyways since this ins't close to passing PROF) - then we should have an abundance of reliable secondary sources covering our subject. Assuming said abundance of sources is at our hypothetical disposal, then it would be WP:UNDUE to include information scraped from various primary sources (a CV-like site - LinkedIn, and a student listing). Icewhiz (talk) 14:36, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I missed the photo (which isn't shown at the link given in the citation, but is on the list page one level up). In the specific instance the info in this thread is probably sufficient for verification (but sourcing should be updated to match), but I do agree there is a more general issue of over-reliance on primary sources. --RL0919 (talk) 15:00, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

AfC Submission Removed
Given the current DRV discussion on this article topic, I have removed 's AfC submission. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:23, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I think that was the correct thing to do. Given the attention this has already received, a hasty submission isn't going to be helpful. Draft space is a place for articles to incubate and we should give some time for this one to do so. After the current DRV is closed and if there are enough reliable, independent sources in the draft to make a good argument for notability, then a request can be made to "allow recreation" based on updated sourcing (not challenging the previous deletions, which puts some people in an unnecessary defensive posture and clouds the issue of newer sources that arose since past discussions). --RL0919 (talk) 20:33, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Great call, the article is nearly identical to deleted iterations (see: ). The only new source is Dailydot and that's a piece that discusses the deletion of her article; the fastcompany and thewire articles are reprints of the undark opinion piece. Creating an article in this state would lead to an immediate G4, another chorus of WP:DRV endorses, and more headaches for the project. When more reliable, third-party coverage of her work appears (or the controversy around her wiki article explodes) the article can be rewritten and submitted for creation. SWL36 (talk) 20:50, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

A reminder
Comment on content, not users.Slatersteven (talk) 16:14, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

personal background
Where (and when) was she born? Where did she go to school?Slatersteven (talk) 16:33, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Wiki controversy
Two of the sources are written by the same person. This causes me concern about weight (as well as NPOV, literally only one side has commented on this (not a discussion so much as a controversy), apparently, an involved side).Slatersteven (talk) 17:42, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This is a minor problem. The three notability-attesting sources need to be independent of each other, not all sources independent. Once the three quality sources have met the condition, all others can be used if reliable and if they usefully support the content. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:29, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Not true, as Andrew D. has said in another section. Instead of decluttering to then add back, just explain here why your think the present sourcing supports NPROF or GNG. Nothing to stop you removing any sources that fail RS, of course. - Sitush (talk) 05:28, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Meeting WP:RS and meeting WP:GNG are two very different things. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:46, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I know. I think we're talking past each other. - Sitush (talk) 17:08, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

GNG is irrelevant to issues like weight and NPOV. The issue is are these good enough to support the section (as well as its wording), not the article.Slatersteven (talk) 17:10, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Why does this draft have creation protection?
The amount of sources in the draft show that it is clear that she is notable enough to have her own Wikipedia article. She was part of a team that discovered a new element on the periodic table for crying out loud! By rejecting articles like this, we are only making ourselves look bad in the media. X-Editor (talk) 17:46, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This is currently the subject of an arbitration case. See that for more history/insight on this article and why that happened. Hope that helps! :) &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 17:26, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I looked at the AfDs and now it all makes sense, thanks! X-Editor (talk) 21:15, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Post AfD-deletion, WP:THREE is the mandatory test
As I have just posted at Deletion_review/Log/2019_May_1, post AfD-deletion, WP:THREE is mandatory. To be included, a topic should have WP:THREE notability-attesting sources. Post AfD-deletion, a decision to reverse that deletions requires (stronger than "should") WP:THREE notability-attesting sources.

These sources must be all of:
 * Independent of the subject, which means independent of the subjects affilitions, employers, past employers, including universities with which seh had an affiliation.
 * Reliably published (this excludes blogs, twitter, facebook, etc)
 * Secondary source material, meaning that the source author has put intellectual creative input into their story, meaning that they have at least added adjectives to sentences describing the topic
 * Comments on the subject in depth. "In depth" is not well defined, but is not onerous.  Common opinions include "two full sentences" or "100 words".  Mere mentions (her name present in a sentence that says nothing about her) fail this.

Three such sources are needed. What are the three best? The draft currently includes 42. It is not reasonable for proponents to demand independent others to review all 42. Which three are the best notability-attesting sources? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:01, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This page might be watched by folks unfamiliar with Wikipedia's processes, so we probably shouldn't be saying it's "mandatory" since it's not actually mandatory, though it's still a good principal to follow. Leviv&thinsp;ich 00:13, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I think in this case, it has become mandatory. Push has definitely come to shove.  The mainspace title is create-protected, no one can accept this draft until after a case is made to remove that protection.  Technically, I suppose admins can, but someone doing such a thing is currently at ArbCom looking at being desysopped.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:28, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Secondary source material, meaning that the source author has put intellectual creative input into their story, meaning that they have at least added adjectives to sentences describing the topic What??? Natureium (talk) 00:18, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You can write a program to scrape facts about the person and then list them. That is not a secondary source.  Facts are cited to primary sources.  To create secondary source material, you must do something transformative to the primary source material.  For example, analyse, criticize, comment on.  The author of an secondary source has put something from themself into their story.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:23, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * One way to look at it is it is it must be an in depth profile, not one paragraph or an interview. Including such things as date of birth, where she was born, who her parents were.Slatersteven (talk) 09:14, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Not sure about this statement. A real serious biography will mention birth and parentage, but that level of depth is not necessary. If you obtained this information from public records and republished, it would not help.  It’s third party commentary that’s needed.  —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:27, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * What? If by "public records" you mean records of birth registrations etc then you really, really need to spend a bit of time reviewing WP:RS and the archives at WP:RSN. Using those would be original research anyway. - Sitush (talk) 07:37, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:THREE is a user essay and so is not only not mandatory, it's just about worthless. See also WP:ARBITRARY. Andrew D. (talk) 14:26, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * It’s the advice that’s sound, not the legality. I would love to see these three quality sources, go to WP:RfPP and get the mainspace title unprotected and move the draft to mainspace. There is no chance of that being allowed with the current WP:Reference bombed draft.  —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:27, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * I am removing personal testimony sourced material, as it most embarrassingly highlights that the information comes from the subject, or worse, her mother. If it goes back, it belongs in a late section titled “personal life and reflections”.
 * When I find quality sources, I will move them to source statements in the lede. That’s where they will be read by reviewers. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:55, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Why is WP:ABOUTSELF information, or information from the subject's mother, embarrassing? I don't understand the problem with the early life stuff you took out? Leviv&thinsp;ich 05:12, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Largely because it puts mediocre sources at the top of the reference list. Concentrate on the WP:N bar for the moment. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:51, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * As I said above, you do not need to declutter the refs merely to advance an argument of notability. Just state here why you think she meets the criteria. - Sitush (talk) 07:34, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I’m telling you, given recent decisions to delete and uphold deletion, to have half a chance, the mediocre needs to be cleaned. If it weren’t for the recent decisions, the mediocre and scattered self testimonial content might be overlooked, but as it, advancing and argument to unsalt and mainspace is more likely a rude response. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:29, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I’m afraid I don’t think the current sources meet the bar. I see you don’t approve of my choice of second best source. I don’t know what the “YWCA Knoxville Tribute to Women” is, and with it sourced to an ORNL press release, I don’t think I do either.  I don’t think “notable for not being Wikipedia-notable” will cut it.  I think local sources could do, but they have to be independent. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:44, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This ORNL profile isn't independent, but it's the most reliable information about her out there, I think. The last few paragraphs of the Undark article is probably second in terms of her role in the tennessine confirmation. The Knoxville story is probably third. Undark and Knoxville are two for GNG IMO. Leviv&thinsp;ich 03:43, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yep, ORNL isn't independent, and nor is the Undark piece (for which consensus seems to be it also may not be reliable); the Knoxville story is likely a vanity press release thing. - Sitush (talk) 09:21, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Knoxville News Sentinel is the daily newspaper in Knoxville, Tennessee, which is the closest city to Oak Ridge. It's definitely not vanity press. Undark Magazine is absolutely reliable. Participating in Wikipedia doesn't make someone non-independent. Those arguments got shot down pretty good at the RSN thread. Leviv&thinsp;ich 22:26, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I missed out a word, sorry. I know it is a newspaper but meant to say "vanity press release" - journalists usually get info from these sort of award ceremonies via a press release, not attendance. That is, the YWCA seeks publicity and the paper has space to publish it. You and I are interpreting the Undark RSN thing differently: it is an op-ed, written to protest the original deletion of the article by one or more Wikipedians who were involved in creating the thing. Undark may be reliable for its own journalistic work but that op-ed sure ain't independent in this situation. I would have thought common sense alone was enough to determine that. - Sitush (talk) 08:07, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * And op-edds are not considered as automatically RS as they newspaper they are printed by. At best it could only be used to discus it as an opinion, not for facts or notability.Slatersteven (talk) 08:34, 6 May 2019 (UTC)


 * What on earth gave you the idea that THREE is mandatory? To quote a great American poet, Truth resists simplicity.  G M G  talk  13:00, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * John Green (author), the practical considerations of reversing two AfD decisions to delete, each backed by by DRV reviews. It speaks directly to how to convince annoyed others that the topic does in fact pass the central test for inclusion. De facto mandatory at this point, is my opinion, and to push this without focusing on three independent sources will much more likely invoke a backlash. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:54, 5 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Sitush, look at this source:
 * https://www.knoxnews.com/story/life/2017/07/30/ywca-tribute-women-finalists-and-special-award-winners/496987001/
 * You said something about local sources, but I don’t think that is a bar to meeting the GNG. I think this source counts as one source meeting the WP:GNG. What do you think? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:54, 5 May 2019 (UTC)


 * No, I said local awards. And I only removed it from the lead, not from the body (although obviously it adds nothing to notability there, either). - Sitush (talk) 05:15, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Agree minor awards are not in and of themselves enough to establish notability, and should not really be in the lede (all a bit puffery'y).Slatersteven (talk) 09:00, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Undark source
The Undark source is an op-ed and seems to have picked up on statements made in our original article which I vaguely recall subsequent deletion discussions queried, notably the claim of her being a "first". The op-ed appeared after one in the Washington Post, which was written by Wikipedians who have been pushing for this article to exist and one of whom at least was responsible for a series of factual errors/misrepresentation of sources in the original WP article. I'm concerned that we're hitting a circular referencing problem here. - Sitush (talk) 14:28, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * , the Undark op-ed has been written by a Wikipedia-editor. See this. Can't link accounts due to outing policies.
 * The claims about Phelps' being the the first is an example of sheer citogenesis, though she has brushed it under the semantics of may and thought to be. &#x222F; WBG converse 14:30, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The claims about Phelps' being the the first is an example of sheer citogenesis, though she has brushed it under the semantics of may and thought to be. &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 14:30, 29 April 2019 (UTC)


 * In that case, the source needs to be removed. Op-eds are not always unreliable but I think in this situation we need to be wary of just how much editorial oversight took place, bearing in mind how much of the original article was debunked in the AfD. And the opinion of a Wikipedian, surely, cannot be cited in a situation such as this. It seems likely to me that there has been a lot of arm-twisting/canvassing going on off-wiki and I think it is ending up with us shooting ourselves in the foot (if you will forgive the mixing up of body parts). - Sitush (talk) 14:34, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * AFAICT the African-American female "firstness" claim appeared first on Wikipedia (and tweets of the Wikipedia article) in September 2018 - this is in the article history - this was then re-tweeted elsewhere. Subsequent reporting in RSes (as opposed to Wikipedia) have played down the "firstness" to "as far as we know she is the first", or "James Andrew Harris wasn't the last, Phelps....". Verifying firstness is near impossible here (you need to run through the very large teams invovled in elements 106 through 116 - from 1974 to 2006. Disproving the statement (finding another example) would actually be easier than proving this assertion (which at Phelps' level of seniority and role (a technician helping to purify an element used in the verification of the element being discovered) - possibly involves a 1,000 people or so). Icewhiz (talk) 14:41, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Where's the policy that a contributed op-ed can't be cited? Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 14:45, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * As for Undark Magazine - this online magazine has never been discussed on RSN AFAICT. The piece appears, regardless, in the "Essays & Opinion" section - so one would assume it is an op-ed with very few editorial controls - and thus represents Claire Jarvis opinions on Wikipedia, Jess Wade, AfD, and Clarice Phelps - but is not a secondary reliable source. See WP:RSOPINION - op-eds are generally OK for attributed opinions and naught else.Icewhiz (talk) 14:49, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * , WP:NEWSORG--Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact. Depends on what you are citing. &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 14:51, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Undark Magazine is a non-profit science magazine. Its publisher is Pulitzer Prize winner Deborah Blum. Its editor-in-chief is former NYT journalist and former fellow at MIT Tom Zeller Jr.. The article was written by Claire Lucy Jarvis, a chemistry PhD who's researched at Imperial College London, University of Edinburgh, Rutgers University, and Emory University, and who is listed as an author at Slate. (Not to be confused with Claire E. Jarvis, a Stanford professor and also a Slate author. ). This isn't just some blog written by some nobody. This is a reliable source.
 * The Undark article was reprinted by Slate . Its editor-in-chief is Jared Hohlt, whose Wikipedia article is underdeveloped, but he was formerly editorial director at New York (magazine). Here's an NYT write-up about him and Slate from last month:.
 * It was also reprinted by Fast Company, a magazine with a circulation of 700,000 . Its editor-in-chief is Stephanie Mehta, formerly with The Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, and others.
 * It was also reprinted in The Wire (India), an Indian magazine with 3.5 million unique visitors per month . One of its founding editors is Siddharth Varadarajan, a Poynter fellow at Yale University. All of these are reliable sources–all of these are serious publications with reputable editorial oversight.
 * Although tagged as a contributed essay/op-ed, the relevant information is actually independent journalism. The author spoke with three people: Phelps, another ORNL scientist woh worked with Phelps on the berkelium purification, and Kit Chapman, who wrote this very long piece about the tennessine discovery for Chemistry World. Here is the passage:
 * This is citable, despite being in an op-ed, and neither RSOPINION nor NEWSORG say otherwise. The above-quoted passage isn't a statement of opinion, even if it comes in an op-ed. Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 14:59, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * This is citable, despite being in an op-ed, and neither RSOPINION nor NEWSORG say otherwise. The above-quoted passage isn't a statement of opinion, even if it comes in an op-ed. Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 14:59, 29 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Speaking with Phelps and another ORNL scientist counts for nothing regarding the "first". Nor does the opinion of a WP contributor in situations such as this. We've already got loads of irrelevant ORNL PR appearing - routine puff stuff that we'd never usually include. - Sitush (talk) 15:05, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It also sounds like Jarvis spoke with people involved in creating the article - e.g. Chapman sounds involved (per the description in the op-ed at least), and possibly spoke with Wade as well (the piece definitely relates Wade's private communications (all be it with Chapman) and makes statements on what Wade "liked"). Regardless of the long wall of text above of who's who in publishing and science - this is an op-ed (and even if the author did some interviewing - being published as an op-ed - means this wasn't vetting by the publisher for accuracy) - generally not to be used for facts, but for attributed opinions only - WP:RSOPINION. Icewhiz (talk) 15:07, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * You think the Washington Post publishes op-eds without vetting their factual claims for accuracy??? Like they just print it without anybody checking it? Source for such a claim? Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 17:48, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

These opinion articles written by wikipedia editors and reprinted as many places that would accept them is slimy. They are using a women's name for political purposes. This needs to stop. Natureium (talk) 15:10, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * So, we should discourage authors from editing Wikipedia, because doing so will result in Wikipedia discounting their published works? That's the message you want to send? Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 15:16, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * No, but we should be wary of treating their works as reliable unless published by a peer-reviewed academic outfit. This is a spin-off from the Twitter canvassing type of thing and it wouldn't surprise me if a group of people have been collaborating privately off-wiki to force the issue. It does no-one any favours, least of all Clarice Phelps. - Sitush (talk) 15:23, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * We should recognize these canvassing efforts for what they are, and they should have considered the person that they're actually writing about. Natureium (talk) 15:24, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, you think that the Washington Post, Undark, Fast Company, The Wire, Slate, and Chemical & Engineering News all published pieces because of wikipedia canvassing, and they should all be discounted? Have you lost your minds? Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 15:26, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Have you looked at the authors of those op-eds? That's what I'm referring to. Natureium (talk) 15:27, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Um, all of the authors are actual scientists and published science writers. I wrote about Claire Jarvis and her credentials above. Maryam Zaringhalam writes for Scientific American (you know, Scientific American). Zaringhalam and Wade were previously published in Nature (journal) . The C&E News piece is published by the American Chemical Society. What's wrong with these authors? Furthermore, who cares that they're wikipedia editors? You think if I wrote something for the Washington Post, they'd publish it? The point isn't that the authors are wikipedia editors and this somehow corrupts their work (of course it doesn't!). The point is that whatever they wrote, it was published by half a dozen very reputable publishers. That counts. Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 15:32, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * You know who's a random person from the internet? Myself and everyone else commenting on this thread. You know who's a credentialed science writer who actually knows what they're talking about? Drs. Jarvis, Zaringhalam, and Wade. Whose opinion should we go with here? Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 15:34, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * In this situation, ones independent of Wikipedia. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary sources. - Sitush (talk) 15:37, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The name dropping here is far from impressive - WP:RSOPINION applies.Icewhiz (talk) 15:41, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't know how you guys analyze sources for reliability, but I do it by looking at who the author is and what editorial controls are in place, which requires looking at who the editor is, and who the publisher is. I don't call that "name dropping," I call it "analyzing a source for reliability". As for "independent of Wikipedia", I'm still not sure how Undark, Wapo, C&E News, Fast Company, Slate, and The Wire are not "independent" of Wikipedia, just because they publish something that was written by someone who is or may be a wikipedia editor (which doesn't apply to C&E News). Unless, of course, you assume those publications are just publishing whatever some wikipedia editor sends them without checking it out first. Which, of course, isn't even plausible. Scientists don't shouldn't become less reputable because they're wikipedia editors. And when a reliable source publishes something, it puts its stamp of approval on that piece. Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich  17:52, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * If you seek to use op-eds in making factual claims; launch a RFC and change that policy. There's no need to even move into the independent of Wikipedia stuff and all that.
 * FWIW, I have certain involvement with The Wire and reprints over there aren't an indicator of very high standard of journalism. Frankly, they are vetted much less and in proportion to the fame (and reliability) of the sources they were already published in. I have no clue as to the rest except that they are all reliable sources but their op-eds are not, (as-usual). &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 18:12, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * You agree, then, that if I submitted something for publication to The Wire, they wouldn't just print it? It's not like a user-generated website. I agree that The Wire (which didn't originate the piece) probably didn't do a thorough fact-checking, but they did rely on Undark's fact checking, which means The Wire republishing an Undark piece is The Wire saying that (1) Undark is reliable, and (2) the article is of interest to readers (i.e., notability...).
 * Have you read WP:USEBYOTHERS? How accepted, high-quality reliable sources use a given source provides evidence, positive or negative, for its reliability and reputation. The more widespread and consistent this use is, the stronger the evidence. For example, widespread citation without comment for facts is evidence of a source's reputation and reliability for similar facts, whereas widespread doubts about reliability weigh against it. This is that situation.
 * WP:RSOPINION talks about not citing opinion as fact, it doesn't say we can't cite any facts in an op-ed ever. (Also it's a guideline...) The heading at RSOPINION is "Statements of opinion". The language I quoted above is not a statement of opinion, it's a sourced statement of fact (with three sources). And it's been republished several times, which is USEBYOTHERS.
 * Finally, RSOPINION doesn't say anything about notability. We can attribute the statements (Clarice Phelps is considered by X, Y, and Z to be the first black woman...). But the op-ed still contributes to notability. Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 18:42, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * WBG is citing WP:NEWSORG which does indeed say that opinion pieces are rarely reliable for statements of fact: Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication or outside authors are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact. The thing about opinion pieces is just that, they are opinion pieces. They aren't subjected to the levels of scrutiny that other journalistic articles are, or are meant to be in some cases (Daily Mail and Daily Mirror I'm looking at you). I would agree that it contributes to notability though, and we can definitely use them for attributed statements. Mr rnddude (talk) 18:50, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * That's fair. Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 19:13, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you seriously suggesting we could say "Clarice Phelps is considered by [name of Wikipedia editor] to be the first African-American woman ..."? Because that is what it is if we use the Jarvis source, regardless of her standing in the scientific community. Independent, rock-solid, not driven by an agenda - she is none of those in this context. - Sitush (talk) 19:15, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Why is it relevant that the author of this article has edited wikipedia a few times? I don't understand the logic that an author stops being a reliable source once they register a wikipedia account and make a dozen edits. Do you know what that would do for recruitment if we behaved like that? Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 21:53, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I have already explained why and it is specifically related to this context. And I really couldn't care less about recruitment when the primary consideration has to be integrity. - Sitush (talk) 10:35, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * That's fair. Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 19:13, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you seriously suggesting we could say "Clarice Phelps is considered by [name of Wikipedia editor] to be the first African-American woman ..."? Because that is what it is if we use the Jarvis source, regardless of her standing in the scientific community. Independent, rock-solid, not driven by an agenda - she is none of those in this context. - Sitush (talk) 19:15, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Why is it relevant that the author of this article has edited wikipedia a few times? I don't understand the logic that an author stops being a reliable source once they register a wikipedia account and make a dozen edits. Do you know what that would do for recruitment if we behaved like that? Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 21:53, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I have already explained why and it is specifically related to this context. And I really couldn't care less about recruitment when the primary consideration has to be integrity. - Sitush (talk) 10:35, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

FYI I opened a thread at WP:RSN. Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 06:05, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Does any person editing this page know the subject personally?Slatersteven (talk) 08:35, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Describing her role in the discovery
Currently, the lede includes the statement "She was part of the team that discovered Element 117, tennessine." But reading in more detail, it seems that she was part of a different team that prepared materials which were used by the team who actually made the discovery. So that description in the lede is misleading - certainly her work made a contribution, but it was not as part of that team. The Physical Review Letters paper that annoucned the discovery listd 33 contributors, and did not include her name. Would it be better to phrase this is something like "She helped to produce materials that were essential to the team that discovered Element 117, tennessine."--Gronk Oz (talk) 03:54, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. The Oak Ridge team is considered by most sources to be part of the team that confirmed the discovery of Element 117. The berkelium target that Oak Ridge produced was basically "what they turned into tennessine", and Oak Ridge was the only place (at the time, I gather) that could produce it. There's more detail on this at tennessine. It's called "tennessine", after Tennessee, where Oak Ridge (and other participating institutions) are located. "Part of the team" and "contributed to" are the two most common phrases I've seen in the sources. Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 05:07, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Simple solution, provide a couple of RS that say they were part of the team.Slatersteven (talk) 16:17, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * There are five sources cited in the article right now for "part of the team". Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 16:28, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You could have linked to one, but this [] is sufficient to establish the claim.Slatersteven (talk) 16:31, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Agree, that one source is sufficient for the claim. If there are three sources for “part of the team”, that is too many.  Just go with the best that do the job sufficiently. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:57, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Compacted
I did a bunch of edits mostly focused on trimming out tangential and trivial material, and removing redundant or low-relevance sources. This takes it down to 11 total sources (from 30+ previously), all of which explicitly mention Phelps. I hope this gives the draft a better foundation onto which can be added any new sources that help establish notability, and it should help reduce concerns about WP:REFBOMBing. Unfortunately notability isn't strongly supported by the remaining sources because the ones with the most depth aren't independent, and the ones with the most independence don't have much depth. But a draft doesn't need to have well-established notability from the start. If the attention she's already attracted leads to a focused profile or two in reliable sources, then that could easily push things over the line. --RL0919 (talk) 23:44, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. You have done a good job.  My continuing assessment is that she is close to, but below, the Wikipedia-notability line.  My reading, noting all the ORNL stuff, is that ORNL and Phelps have made an effort to promote her as a human face for the work they do.  ORNL need to try harder, to get independent and reputable others, such as newspapers or magazines, to pick up the stories and run with them independently.  In other words, ORNL promotion is working but has failed to gain traction.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:23, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks and good job. I agree that the ones with the most depth aren't independent, and the ones with the most independence don't have much depth, but I've always thought we should be flexible enough to reconcile that and accept the combination of sources as reliably establishing notability. I'm starting to think the new sources are adding up to WP:NPROF 7 notability, though. Leviv&thinsp;<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">ich 02:18, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:NPROF#"7. The person has had a substantial impact outside academia in their academic capacity". No.  There is no evidence from independent sources of any "impact".  Even from ORNL sources, was she essential, or just there too?  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:36, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No. Just because people are piling on with that rational for the Sarah Tuttle AfD at the moment doesn't make it the weapon of choice for every other contested deletion in the sphere. - Sitush (talk) 06:51, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * In general, I have a knee-jerk reaction about being flexible on BLP:s. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:18, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Same here, what is sauce for the goose is source for the Gander.Slatersteven (talk) 12:46, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Good one! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:06, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Media mention
The deletion of this page has been mentioned in an article in the Washington Post. Accordingly, I expect some culture battles to be fought here.

Cstaffa (talk) 20:36, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Here too: . I have restored the article, it is becoming notable enough to pass the criterias just from discussions about its deletion. This is an embarassment for Wikipedia. Rama (talk) 07:39, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Such reportage wouldn't make the person notable but rather the deletion of an article about them, which is a different title altogether. - Sitush (talk) 08:15, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Funnily enough we even have a policy covering exactly that scenario... &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 08:47, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It would be the greatest irony if we end up having an article about 'the Wikipedia deleting Clarice Phelps controversy', but none about the scientist herself! --Jose Mathew (talk) 18:37, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

You know, I would like to spend some time thinking through the sources again and working collegiately on this article. Unfortunately it has the attention of the "Usual Suspects", who are here within minutes of this article being restored, more interested in finding reasons to attack individuals, including creepily researching their social media profiles, ceaselessly finding reasons to make contributions here a non-stop ranty argument, and will take any slim evidence to take us to dramah boards. No thanks, I don't want my off-wiki data being connected to my past 10 years of contributions to this project.

Until we have a system to recognise the most problematic individuals that make Wikipedia a f**king s**thole for people who are openly interested in the fair representation of women or other minorities on Wikipedia, we will never fix the systemic bias that exists here.

This article about Phelps, and the appalling bad faith treatment of contributors, serves as an excellent case study of how broken Wikipedia remains. --Fæ (talk) 08:59, 29 April 2019 (UTC)


 * There are "usual subjects" among the professionally outraged, for sure. - Sitush (talk) 09:08, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * How tone deaf you are. "Professionally outraged" is how right wing extremists have marginalised and derided the opinions of feminists, integrationists and pro-LGBT thinkers for decades. "Professionally outraged" is equivalent to the dichotomy of praising men as masculine when they express anger, while any woman daring to be angry is derided as a scold. --Fæ (talk) 09:44, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTFORUM, of course; this page is exclusively for discussing the article contents and nothing else, however much context may interest us. ——  SerialNumber  54129  09:48, 29 April 2019 (UTC)


 * It's telling that the Washington Post are happy to run an article slating Wikipedia for not covering Clarice Phelps, yet they have precisely zero coverage on her outside of this issue. Pot calling the kettle black, perhaps? If they and others actually did some in depth coverage of her, or an interview, then there would be no debate and we would not be having this discussion.  &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 10:19, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

And as far as I can tell this is all there is still, this has had no legs.Slatersteven (talk) 11:48, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Legal question
If I want to create an article about Clarice Phelps in another language, then, considering that a similar article was deleted on the English Wikipedia, should I start it as a user subpage or draft, and ask for community consensus before moving it into that wiki's mainspace? Can someone please clarify the required procedure? --Jose Mathew (talk) 18:57, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
 * , generally speaking, each language has its own rules and guidelines for creating articles. You would need to see if she meets their criteria, not enwiki's, before creating an article. Primefac (talk) 19:00, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Also thanks for showing me that shortcut to name a user. --Jose Mathew (talk) 17:43, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I just saw this now, but hopefully this worked out! &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 21:40, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yep, here it is:- ml:Draft:ക്ലാരിസ് ഫെൽപ്സ് To be on the safe side, I created it as a draft. It can be moved to main-space if there is consensus on notability. Jose Mathew (talk) 14:14, 22 May 2019 (UTC)