Talk:Claude Debussy/Archive 1

Horribly wrong
Its so depressing to see such a terrifyingly bad article attached to my favorite composer! something went terribly wrong and messed up the orginization in the article.

Time to remove the cleanup notice?
The article is better, but is it good enough?--Deadworm222 18:36, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Influences?
The article says "Influences", but I always thought that influences meant that you are inspired by someone else's ideas. The things listed in the Influences-part seem more like stylistic characteristics to me. So I'm going to change the title, but if someone has a reason to revert or something, I won't object, of course.--Deadworm222 20:42, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Further additions
yesterday i tried to fix up the page a little without insulting the previous editer. I have added a little orginization, and plan to continue... But in regards to the suggested reading or a debussy in pop culture... dont hesitate to add it yourself! I plan on adding this section about pop culture right away, i hope, Mr. Veil that you wont be offended if i use your words directly. (i cant give you credit, but i would if i could) anyway, if you want to edit it, do so... so long as you're confident you're improving the page.

Please pay attention to spelling: organization (Am. Eng. spelling), and editor. Myscha Aiken 15:41, 14 Dec 2005 (GMT)

Debussy in popular culture
It would be interesting to have a section on this topic. For example, the theme song to Jack Horkheimer's syndicated weekly TV series, "Star Gazer" (used to be called "Star Hustler") is a synth version of Debussy's "Arabesque #1", performed by Isao Tomita. --Thomas Veil 18:45, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Suggested reading
Perhaps add a Suggested reading section? Roger Nichols' Debussy Remembered (Amadeus Press, 1992, ISBN 0931340411 cased, 093134042X paper) contains some excellent character-portraits of the composer which also touch upon the music, to start with. Schissel : bowl listen 13:05, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Table of Contents
When I read the Debussy article just now, I felt like he wasn't done justice with the slightly rambling format of the article. It would be nice to see someone clean up the article and organize it into different sections with a table of contents, i.e. introduction; biography; music; style; presence in pop culture, etc.


 * I agree, the article is in dire need of re-structuring and adding more inforation, other than his music...--Deadworm222 19:27, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Limitations of Debussy article
On the basis of other articles on musical matters, I had debated referring music students to wikipedia for introductions to composers and topics. Having just read the Debussy article I realise I was mistaken. It seems out of touch with scholarship on the composer. It happily throws around the compromised concept of 'impressionism' without acknowledging that it has been challeneged repeatedly by scholars over a long period. The material from Reti about musical style is so superficial as to be worthless. And the notion that Debussy developed his musical language free from Wagner is nonsense, as Holloway and others have demonstrated. The article is also pitifully short. It has a long way to go before it could replace even some of the most modest single-volume dictionaries of music.


 * You may wish to familiarize yourself more with Wikipedia. For one, please Sign your posts on talk pages. You may find more information at Welcome, newcomers. Hyacinth 09:36, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Can you name two or three recent Debussy scholars or their works off the top of your head?
 * I find no criticism of the concept of impressionism in either the general article or the musical article. However, this article does note that "It is essential to note that the term "impressionist", widely applied to Debussy and the music he influenced, is a matter of intense debate within academic circles. It is widely held that the term is a misnomer, an inappropriate label which Debussy himself opposed." Can you name one source off the top of your head that does criticize the concept?
 * Re: Reti, superifcial is better than nothing.
 * Re: Wagner, this article notes that "With his visits to Bayreuth (1888, 1889) Debussy was exposed to Wagnerian opera, which was to have a lasting impact on his work" Of course, in the next section it appears to overstate that "Beginning in the 1890s, Debussy developed his own musical language largely independent of Wagner's style and heavy emotionalism." This is humurous since the point of the paaragraph is to show how Debussy's style was influenced by and a reaction to Wageners (and being reactionary is not independent).
 * How long should the article be?

Hyacinth 10:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Look, there are a LOT of crappy, distorted, not well written articles on Wikipedia that don't reflect the latest research or the full range of discussion of the topic. AND Wikipedia was just peer-reviewed by Nature, one of the leading science journals, as being almost as good as the Brittanica with regard to science -- and their peer review found almost as many interpretive and factual errors in the Brittanica as in Wikipedia.  AND many scholars and researchers haven't yet started to work on Wikipedia, because they don't yet know or understand what it is or because they won't get any academic recognition for contributing.  So once a person recognizes the many real limitations and weaknesses of Wikipedia, either he/she can decide to forget about it on the ground of those limitations etc. and go elsewhere, or he/she can pitch in to try to improve it.  One of the main ways that the latter course happens (speaking from my own experience) is that one discovers that some article is crappy and decides to improve it. Jeremy J. Shapiro 14:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * ...But if you're going to cite the Nature study in Wikipedia's defense, you ought to spell Britannica correctly.

Folks, of course there are going to be diverging opinions: Debussy is an artist a composer. One of the greatest ever. An original. Debussy heard it all: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Javanese music. Heloved Japanese woodblock prints. He was also French and died while Paris was being bombed. As such with a Franco-German war in 1870 and one in 1914, Debussy had strong impulses to be different, to be new to be lighter to be "French". HuskyMoon 07:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Ocean's Eleven is mentioned twice
I have removed the latter small notice. &mdash;68.239.6.181 20:39 15 January 2006 (UTC)
 * There's no need to announce minor, uncontroversial edits; just mention it in the edit summary when you submit the change. Also please sign your posts; I added an attribution for you, but next time enter four tildes ( ~ ) at the end of the post. Thanks for helping improve the article, though. &mdash;mjb 09:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Proper pronunciation of 'Debussy'
What is the proper pronunciation of Debussy? Is it "deh-BOO-see"? "DAYB-yoo-see"? Something else? &mdash; mjb 09:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The first one is correct. Graham/pianoman87 talk 11:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No, the emphasis is on the final syllable, as in every French name. David Sneek 11:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Mr. Sneek is correct. d'bu'SEE. Gads, I used to go so nuts when I used to hear some late-night radio announcer who always said "DURRboosee". - Doug Gross Aug/24/2006
 * I second Doug. "deh-biew-SEE". "DAY" is completely wrong, in french syllables start with consonants, and the stress is put either on the last syllable of a word, or the last syllable in a sentence. "biew" is as close of an approximation as you can get with american/british phonemes. See french pronunciation.Cnadolski 14:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Javanese music influence
It's stated in the article about Debussy's encounter to Javanese music, but it's not clearly described whether or how this has influenced his music. Can anyone help? sentausa 15:45, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The piano pieces Cloches à travers les feuilles and Pagodes are perhaps the best examples of this influence. See: . David Sneek 18:54, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * In the first of "Deux Arabesques" Debussy employs a pentatonic scale (see m. 6-7). This piece was written in 1888, prior to his introduction to gamelan (according to the article.)  Perhaps it's too great an assumption to say gamelan turned him on to the pentatonic sound.  Maybe if he had written any pieces in other, more unique scales used in javanese music I would be more readily accepting of this claim.  Did he cite javanese music as an influence in any of his letters, memoirs, etc? Zukkie44 01:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

<>
The translation is *not* "God, how good he is to look upon ..." This is clear to any French-speaker, even if they don't know anything about the rest of the poem.

The poem dates from the 15th Century, and is by the French poet Charles d'Orléans (1394-1465). The first four lines are:


 * Dieu, qu'il l'a fait bon regarder!
 * La gracieuse, bonne et belle;
 * Pour les grans biens qui sont en elle,
 * Chascun est prest de la louer.

Some of the spellings are archaic, but a close literal translation is:


 * God, how He her has made good to look upon! [If we were looking at a male, the line would be "Dieu, qu'il lui a fait bon regarder!"]


 * The gracious-one, good and lovely [a male would be "Le gracieux, bon et beau"]


 * For all the great goodnesses that are in her,
 * Everyone is near [in the sense of, "has drawn near, has approached so as to be in her presence"] to praise her.

But what about bon? It clearly describes the le in l'a, making it masculine, unless you can make a case for a feminine bon. My personal opinion is that le is masculine, but refers to an unstated concept. This is similar to the English construction, "It is raining." So I'd translate the line, "God, how good you've made it!" But the rest of the poem is definitely referring to a girl. -- trlkly 14:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

.....>>> But what about bon? It clearly describes the le in l'a, <<< "l'a" is (here) a contraction of "la a". Read, please, what it says, above: "If we were looking at a male, the line would be "Dieu, qu'il lui a fait bon regarder!" "Bon" is an adverb modifying "regarder."

Image:ClaudeDebussyC.jpg
Can anyone provide source information for Image:ClaudeDebussyC.jpg, please? Conscious 19:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio?
I was reading over this page, and found the following sentence: Pelléas, with its rule of understatement and deceptively simple declamation, also brought an entirely new tone to opera - but an unrepeatable one. This exact same sentence can be found in this article. I don't know if the original website allows their info to be released into the public domain, but I thought I would bring it to attention. Dooms Day34  9  00:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Achille-Claude or Claude-Achille
Which is correct? It is Claude-Achille on Claude Debussy, but it is Achille-Claude on Claude Debussy.--1523 13:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Debussy as anti-Wagnerite
I am not sure whether Debussy's "that old poisoner" statement (concerning Wagner) and his dissociating himself from his style is enough to motivate the epithet, or even if he was anti-Wagnerite enough to be included in the category, so a statment from someone with more authority would be welcome. But for now I added him. Staretsen 21:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Agree with Skarioffszky. French has no word stress. --- Sautiller

Wife and daughter
There is no mention of his personal life at all, especially his wives and daughter. - 75.20.226.159 05:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

debussy in pop culture
the Arabesque no. 1 was featured in am AM 990 (NZ radio station) circa. 2001 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Junh1024 (talk • contribs) 11:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

Debussy as an impressionist composer
The article states that the application of the term "impressionism" to Debussy's music is under intense debate. However, it only presents one side of that debate: the side opposing the application of the term. If this article is to be fair, it should include both sides of the argument. Therefore, I have included both sides in my last edit. BettyAnn 11:17, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

UK or US english?
I found something weird, but interesting... There is a passage in the beginning ...In contrast to the large orchestras so favoured by late-romanticism... Favoured is spelled correct in the UK, but what about in the US? it would be favored... just curious... Would we have to put? --71.212.156.5 01:20, 13 May 2007 (UTC)William
 * See Manual of Style. Skarioffszky 10:27, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Usual Suspects composed by Ottman!
Hello, I suppose there is an error on the Debussy page: 'Les Sons Et Les Parfums Tournent Dans L'Air Du Soir' was not used in the opening and ending credits of the Usual Suspects. The theme of this movie was composed by John Ottman. Anyone objecting against removal of this line? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Debussy was NOT a major influence on jazz pianist Bill Evans! Evans appreciated and admired the French master, but I have it first-hand from Evans himself that his major classical influence was Bach, and that Debussy had little or nothing to do with his style.

MWMorse mmorse@ca.inter.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.126.83.47 (talk) 22:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I contacted Evans beyond the grave and he said... Hyacinth (talk) 18:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism...
Why in the world is THIS page being targetted? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 20:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have no idea. I'm pretty sure it's a single vandal using a series of IPs though. It's just been semi-protected. --Folantin 20:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well obviously, it's just weird, and now they've hit the talk page...yeesh. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 19:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Needs Addition!
some of the info on this page is totally UNtrue, but some of it is good... but it needs MORE! Things like what kind of piano(s) he owned (I have a Steinway piano that was originally owned by Debussy) and maybe more of his background. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.22.117.126 (talk) 03:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Uhh...that's odd.
Why is this...a part of WikiProject Jazz? Debussy was a Romantic composer, or a Late Romantic, at least. -- MusicalConnoisseur  Got Classical? 05:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * ...or early Modernist or Impressionist? Funnily enough, if I remember right, the only description Debussy would own up to was "French musician" (!). He wasn't a big one for labels. I did ask once about the Project:Jazz tag and (my memory is shaky) I was told that it was because Debussy's music had had some influence on jazz or his late piano music sounds kind of jazzy. Whatever the case, the connection was fairly tenuous, but Wikiprojects rarely need much excuse to slap their templates onto talk pages.(Contributing to the actual articles, on the other hand, is a different matter!). --Folantin (talk) 09:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * A lot of jazz musicians indeed cite Debussy as a large influence (and Ravel, perhaps less suprisingly). As Debussy himself, calling him a romantic composer? Maybe if he had died in 1894... ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 12:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, now it appears that some composers are being claimed by Wikiproject:Education, judging by the talk pages of our Berlioz and Bizet articles. I have no idea why. Perhaps because they received an education or their music is taught in schools? Who knows? I think "WikiProject creep" will soon reach the nadir of absurdity. --Folantin (talk) 13:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Speak of the devil! --Folantin (talk) 13:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So do we remove this tag or slap a "60s music" one on J.S. Bach because he inspired the Beatles? -- MusicalConnoisseur  Got Classical? 00:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've cut the irrelevant project tags. --Folantin (talk) 09:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Mathematical Section
I added original research and essay templates. Here are the phrases that I noticed ... "it is somewhat unexpected to discover that," ... "Sometimes these divisions seem to follow the standard divisions of the overall structure". Apart from the templates, that I think I'm right in applying, the text does not quite make sense in my opinion. If the Golden ratio is a natural expression of Mathematics in nature, then you would expect to find it all over the place. So hints of it's existence are not proof that Debussy deliberately put it in there, although better references could allow the section into the article. DJ Barney (talk) 13:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Can you clarify whether you are taking issue with Howat or the WP contributor? It's not clear to me. Also I don't see how you can ask for a citation for a citation, so I've gone ahead and removed the fact tag (but left the others). --Kleinzach (talk) 07:10, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like a lot of air to me. I think we should take it out. There's *only* one person mentioned who thinks that there's math in Debussy. Where is he going to learn a Fibonacci sequence? I bet it's all just coincidence esp because the guy who claims it can't find it in some of Debussy's work. Sounds very marginal claim here. We should take it out.

Boondigger (talk) 05:25, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Disagree. Howat's work is hardly controversial any more. He traces Debussy's interest in numerology to late-19th century French occultism, popular with the composers of the day. As does Godwin, in astonishing detail, in Music and the Occult: French Musical Philosophies 1750-1950 Sam Weller (talk) 17:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

NPOV the description of the source. But on Wikipedia, sources rule over "sounds like" gut feelings. Find a source saying Howat is bunk and we can include it. Hyacinth (talk) 18:22, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Doctor Gradus ad Parnassum - poking fun at Clementi or Czerny (or both)?
The notes (by Myriam Chimènes) to the Benedetti Michelangeli version of "Children's Corner" (DGG 415 372-2) state that Debussy was poking fun at Czerny, rather than Clementi. Given that they both had produced "Gradus ad Parnassum" collections of exercises, it's not quite clear who Debussy was aiming at: maybe it was at both. Does anybody have more definitive information?

Ndokos (talk) 19:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Equal temperament?
In regards to the description of pentatonic scales in Debussy's music:

I don't think Debussy used "equal tempered" pentatonic scales (and, probably rarely, pentatonic scales in 12-tone equal temperament). In all the scores of Debussy that I have ever looked, I don't think I have seen a notation mark for the micro-intervals required to produce an "equal tempered" pentatonic scale (!). It might be the same editor that talked about Debussy in the article on gamelan, who seems to be mixing up talk of temperament in scale systems that are defined by intervallic relationships. If every interval in a scale set is a semi-tone, a whole-tone, a minor-third, etc., it doesn't mean it is equally tempered; in fact you can play these scales using any variety of temperament.

Any qualms before I clarify this article and the the one on gamelan music? 66.130.161.95 (talk) 06:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)