Talk:Clearwater, Florida/Archive 1

Needs citing:
From the trivia item on the Mary image: "(This was not the first act of vandalism on the image: Previously, someone had thrown acid on the windows, but the image re-appeared.)" Really? This begs a source. Bobak 19:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think I saw that in the SPTimes.User:Mikereichold | User_talk:Mikereichold 22:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

SPTime may have had the story. I recall it was tomatoes, not acid, and that the image was not affected. Osprey 22:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Why do all the trivia entries have a citation needed tag except the ones about NASCAR?

Bias of local government?

 * I would like to see details of the influence of Scientology on the local goverment and services of Clearwater. Some of the civil workforce seem to be biased in favour of the "church" and I find this extremly perturbing to say the least. I believe that democratic values are compromised here.

I have added a piece to it, as I am disgusted by these cultists.


 * Please remember that whatever you add should be from verifiable, reliable sources. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * To re-iterate and clarify my last sentence: whatever you add needs to be from verifiable, reliable sources, or else it will do little to no good.  If you say "Well, I should be able to say that the local government is biased in favor of Scientology, because I live there and I see it happening," then what do you think will be added by the next Scientologist who sees what you added?  That Scientologist will insert into the article "the Church of Scientology is cherished and beloved by all of Clearwater for all the good it does, except by a small contingent of hatemongers who are in the pay of a psychiatric conspiracy."  Would you be happy that they added that?  I suspect not.  But they are only doing what you would like to do -- add their own personal opinion to the article, based on nothing more than "I personally believe this to be so."


 * Now if, say, you find a newspaper article that talks about indications of a bias towards the Church, that newspaper article will probably count as a verifiable, reliable source. You can then cite that source in the article.  But if you can't cite such sources, then by Wikipedia policy, any editor can remove your uncited claims.  And that is probably better than what could happen, which is that you'd encourage the very "cultists" you refer to to insert their own uncited opinions. -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

tech data
Despite the Post Office address, Tech Data's HQ is actually within the corporate boundaries of the City of Largo. Cheers, :) MikeReichold 14:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

putting clearwater on the map
Clearwater was a tourist destination long before Scientology showed up. Like the rest of Pinellas County, the biggest factor in the area's growth was the return of WWII vets as torists and residents after the war. You see an agricutural economy based on citrus in the first half of the 20th century. The area suffered during the Depression. The military used the area for trainig during the war. After the war, electronics, the freeze of 1962, and the influx of people as tourists and residents displaced agriculture. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mikereichold (talk • contribs) 15:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC).


 * As a florida resident I can say this is absolutely true. Scientology doesn't increase the tourism to clearwater nor does it 'put it on the map'. I removed that bit and replaced it with sourced material I had on before which someone removed.Wikidudeman 17:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Article links in WRONG Fort Harrison! Bill Ash 12/11/07 wash@mail.usf.edu  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.247.213.162 (talk) 03:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Xenu.net is an adequate source.
Wikipedias policy on neutrality does not extend to citations or references. All sources and all editors have bias including newspapers and news publications. Citing a source that has a specific opinion of a subject is not against wikipedia policy. If it were then citing "talk origins" in the evolution article would be against policy. It isn't. Citing Xenu.net is allowed per WP:NPOV. It may not be a neutral source but it provides a reliable reference for the existence of Scientology in Clearwater Florida and the purported bias of the police force. Wikidudeman  (talk) 23:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Up to a point, Lord Copper. You might want to have a look at Reliable sources, which states that personal websites "should not be used as sources of information about a person or topic other than the owner of the website, or author of the book." The statement "The Clearwater Police Force has been dubbed the "Scientology police force"" is unsatisfactory, because it doesn't say who's done the dubbing. I've changed this to read "Critics of Scientology have dubbed the Clearwater Police Force the "Scientology police force"", as that does clearly attribute the viewpoint. -- ChrisO 00:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Xenu.net is not a 'personal website' in any sense of the word. It's a website publised to criticism of Scientology. Moreover that website is being used as a source for the statement that the Clearwater police force has been dubbed the "Scientology police force" as well as assertions of bias from the police force which the site details very clearly. Wikidudeman  (talk) 03:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I've moved the section in question to here:
 * "There have been numerous accusations of bias by the police force in favor of Scientology. Critics of Scientology have dubbed the Clearwater Police Force the "Scientology police force".

Evidence that xenutv is a personal web site is in the only complete sentence on the page, which says, "This documentary was produced to demonstrate what I believed to be a clear bias against the LMT by members of the Clearwater Police Force who were on Scientology's payroll." This is one person's views. It does not meet the criteria of Reliable sources. -- Donald Albury 00:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah, I thought we were talking about xenu.net (at least, Wikidudeman was). xenutv.com appears to be an entirely different website. Xenu.net does have a pretty decent reputation as representative of Scientology critics, as it's a compilation of material from a lot of different sources (it even has its own Wikipedia article) but xenutv.com seems to be much more of a one-man band. I agree with your assessment. -- ChrisO 00:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Saints?
Just how does this article fall under the Saints project? -- Donald Albury 22:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

probably because the apparition of the Virgin Mary that appeared a ten or so years ago on a large glass window, it was destroyed by vandals a few years back though. Gailim 14:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Why isn't this mentioned in the article? Steve Dufour 04:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I removed this article. --Bwpach (talk) 20:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Trivia removed by Wikipediatrix May 18, 2007
I know all of the stuff removed to be true, but it would take more time than I have to run it all down and cite the sources. Anyone care to tackle sourcing the removed trivia and restoring it? Cheers, :) MikeReichold 14:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I know a lot of it to be true myself as well, but nevertheless, it's gotta be sourced. Wikipedia has a very low tolerance for trivia in articles anyway, and any restored information should be placed in the body of the article than in a trivia section. wikipediatrix 16:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced statement

 * It is because of Flag that Clearwater boasts the world's largest community of Scientologists outside of Los Angeles.

One of the links seems to be dead. The other doesn't say anything about the number of Scientologists living in Clearwater compared to L.A. or any other city. This is an interesting fact. Can a source be found? Thanks. Steve Dufour 04:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Corporate Interests warning
An IP address owned by the Church of Scientology (205.227.165.244) has been used to edit the article and remove criticism. . S facets 04:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hulk Hogan lives in Belleair, Florida, not Clearwater
From time to time editors list Hogan as a Clearwater resident. This is erroneous. He lives/has a house in Belleair.

Sources


 * HULK HOGAN STILL CALLS BAY AREA HOME


 * THERE'S NO PLACE LIKE OHIO TO FLEE A HURRICANE


 * FOR ABOUT $20M, NBA-SIZED HOUSE ALL YOURS

Cheers, :) MikeReichold 14:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's Hulk Hogan vs. Belleair on TV

The section is "Famous current and former residents". AndroidCat 05:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * AndroidCat, his real last name is Bollea and does not live in Clearwater. I have had breakfast with him - also declined to take a spin on his Harley.--Fahrenheit451 05:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Has he ever lived in Clearwater in the past? AndroidCat 20:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. It would be awkward for me to ask him that unless it came up in a conversation. --Fahrenheit451 21:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Demographics about scientology
Would it be appropriate to include info in the demographics section regarding scientology? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.110.242.4 (talk) 08:44, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I am also curiouse. AdrianCo (talk) 21:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)AdrianCo


 * Agree, but such info should be accompanied by demographics for other religions as well.99.140.193.213 (talk) 20:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Scientology has been given undue weight. See my comment below. Dlohcierekim&#39;s sock (talk) 14:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Scientology stuff
Discovered this towns existance through it's scientology links at xenutv.com, that site offers a plethora of footage and information in relation to Clearwater being 'taken over', including original documents of orders from the Church of Scientology to take over Clearwater, that would enrich the content of the scientological (?) section of this article. 122.107.56.47 (talk) 05:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure, but I don't think that is considered a reliable source, and the "Scientology stuff" has undue weight already. Clearwater's politics are more complex (and more interesting) than that. There is a real danger of this article becoming a soapbox or battlefield for pro/anti Scientology activists. Dlohcierekim&#39;s sock (talk) 14:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The section on scientology is not undue weight. It is a small part of the whole article. There is nothing to be gained by an attitude of denial about the significance of scientology to clearwater.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 23:24, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Even if XenuTV is judged to be unreliable as a source (which I strongly disagree with), we should all agree that interviews with, for instance, former mayor Gabe Cazares are in no way unusable. If we can't use footage from pickets or documentaries made by XenuTV because people don't trust the site than so be it. But interviews with high up people surely can be trusted. Dorkules (talk) 09:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Francis Wilson Playhouse
The Francis Wilson Playhouse section in the Francis Wilson article could easily become a separate article, but currently it is without sources other than the official web site. An editor interested in theater, or in Clearwater could separate the actor from the playhouse, if other sources can to be found. The playhouse could be linked to this article. --DThomsen8 (talk) 18:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Another Notable Former Resident
Jim Morrison .... Need I eloborate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.147.56.40 (talk) 16:30, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Cwlocal Edits
Hi Cwlocal - A few of the edits you made were a bit verbose. I thought I would go ahead and make a few adjustments to the section in order to streamline it a bit. I was sure to include your sections in there. Scifilover386 (talk) 19:59, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

bankruptcy
The whole city is bankrupt. Not worth mentioning, eh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.157.48.15 (talk) 23:52, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Added sources, changed banner on Government section.
I just happened to look at this page and noticed that the government section had no citations at all. I looked up the official webpage for the city government, confirmed that the information on the wiki was, indeed, accurate, and added the citation. Then, when I went to look at it, I noticed that the banner was still there saying it had no citations. So, I copied the banner at the top of the article, pasted it in there, and changed the date. Now, maybe it doesn't need the banner at all, since the page has that banner, but I'll leave that to the experts (this is one of my first edits). FutureImperfect (talk) 06:13, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Merger complete
✅ Information from Moccasin Lake Nature Park has been merged into this article. NorthAmerica1000 01:51, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Clearwater Article
This city article needs major expansion/re-construction/revision/and citations. Please help by using the WikiProject Cities/US Guideline to help improve the article. I will be editing from time to time also so please help me with this article as it was a mess and needs tons of information. Thank you to User:Onel5969 for guiding me to the Guideline page! Adog104 (talk) 13:57, 5 September 2015 (UTC)Adgo104

Scientology edit
Hello Grayfell. I appreciate your diligence on this article, and I receive your point regarding the author referenced for the edit that I made. I reposted my edit, because of the following reasons: 1) Veenker may not be notable, but the publication that produced the article, Christianity Today, is. 2) The section on Scientology focused on controversy and said nothing about its actual activities and contribution to the community, which I found sorely lacking in this page to provide a neutral and balanced perspective. I disagree that the edit as a whole was not neutral. Thank you.Daylighthief (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:37, 15 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Daylightthief has been blocked for sock-puppetry. For future reference Christianity Today is indeed notable, but that quote was badly taken out of context. As one might expect, the article is largely from a Christian perspective, with interviews and commentary from local pastors and such who are mostly very critical of the motives of the CoS in Clearwater. The local events mentioned, such as the parties for orphans, are far too vague and far too routine to be included based on the article's passing mentions. The article also quotes a dean at Clearwater Christian College as saying that such efforts are "general and euphemistic" which suggests that proper context would need to be included.
 * Also, the article was written in 2000 and a lot has happened since then. Flag Building finally opened, and the consensus among outside observers is that overall membership in the church has significantly declined. The article quotes Mike Rinder who has since left the church and become an outspoken critic. Anything taken from this article would need to be given a time-frame to avoid WP:DATED.
 * The presence of Scientology in Clearwater is complex enough that Wikipedia shouldn't attempt to present both sides, because there are more than just two sides. WP:NPOV explains that Wikipedia summarizes perspectives according to their prominence in sources, not an A vs. B system. Grayfell (talk) 22:55, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed, hence sanctions has been put forth onto articles related to Scientology. Also scanning through revisions, it must be clear that articles are not supposed to promote a group of peoples activities in a community as its more of an opinion. Again keep it NPOV.  A dog 104  Talk to me 20:50, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

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Assessment comment
Substituted at 14:32, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

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Notable people section
What is the inclusion criteria for this list? Latest addition was Mike Rinder (who lives in Palm Harbor) and Aaron Smith-Levin (a red link). Every Scientologist who once lived there temporarily or only visits on occasion but doesn't maintain a Florida residency shouldn't be on the list. This includes Chick Corea, Lisa Marie Presley, Juliet Simms, and probably Tom Cruise. And for all the others, if their Wikipedia BLP article doesn't mention Clearwater, they probably shouldn't be on this list either (or fix their BLP). Grorp (talk) 08:09, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:USCITIES. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:49, 29 November 2022 (UTC)