Talk:Cleveland (county)

Name
I am open to renaming the article. Please suggest what to rename to. Currently it fall in line with the County Durham and Irish counties convention, being “County ...”. Two redirects exist on the article at present, “County of Cleveland” and “Cleveland (county)”, feel free to create more redirects. Chocolateediter (talk) 17:23, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * As I mention below, I cannot, with all due respect, agree that there even is a convention re Durham and Ireland with which this can or should fall in line. It's comparing apples and, ermm, something else. But more below ... Cheers DBaK (talk) 18:21, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

I guess it is the land situation rather than named after a place that meant it didn’t become known as County Cleveland, for example Cumberland, Westmorland and Northumberland.

I guess Durham being associated with the -lands around it meant it didn’t acquire -shire. I find it funny Durham= home town by match Celtic and Germanic dun-ton. Chocolateediter (talk) 18:49, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 6 January 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move to Cleveland (county). (t &#183; c)  buidhe  19:56, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

County Cleveland → County of Cleveland – See note above, and also see User talk:Oiyarbepsy/2021A. County of Cleveland and Cleveland (County) have both been suggested as names, we need input on which option is best. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 17:27, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Move. Either name but slight preference for County of Cleveland . We certainly need an article on this county which existed for nearly a generation. Dormskirk (talk) 17:31, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Content to go with Cleveland (county) as that appears to be where the consensus is building. Dormskirk (talk) 18:45, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Alright “Cleveland (county)” seems most popular I can see why. Now I don’t know how to move redirect and article while both exist. Do you rename redirect, rename article then rename the redirect the previous article name. Chocolateediter (talk) 18:36, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Move to Cleveland (county): I tried to find out whether "County Cleveland" or "Cleveland County" was the most commonly-used name (for the 1974 UK county since there are a number in the US) and my conclusion was neither. It is referred to as just Cleveland or "the county of Cleveland", partly perhaps because it existed as a county only for a short time and so does not have a long history.  There is Cleveland County Council, the body that ran the county at that time, but that is definitely the county council of Cleveland rather than the council of Cleveland County.  Lithopsian (talk) 17:41, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Move to Cleveland (county): I feel that County Cleveland is simply, absolutely, wrong. I know it's WP:OR but I've never heard it used seriously and I don't believe I ever will, though always willing to be persuaded; the parallel with Durham and Irish counties isn't a parallel since those are absolutely standard usages and County Cleveland is not. I also don't believe we ever called it (yes, OR again, I lived there) Cleveland County which simply sounds like somewhere in the USA; nor the County of Cleveland in that formal sense ... I think we just called it Cleveland and then clarified in context, if needed – it was usually clear whether you meant the place or the administrative district from what you were saying! So yes, I think Cleveland (county) is the only thing that works and has any credibility, as it avoids making a claim about some formal name which I think was never used and never the WP:COMMONNAME of the administrative district. Best wishes to all. DBaK (talk) 18:19, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Move to Cleveland (county) sources like Britannica seem to call it just "Cleveland" though their article is also for the general meaning. Note for example there is Avon (county) which isn't at County Avon or County of Avon although WP:NATURAL might apply.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note that the sign does use "County of Cleveland" so I'd support that over the status quo but it doesn't look like it was called that often enough to satisfy WP:NATURAL however its likely there was at least some usage since people would have needed to distinguish from the general meaning.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 19:34, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The redirect at "Cleveland (county)" needs to be deleted first; you will need to request a technical deletion (WP:G6) Dormskirk (talk) 18:54, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Er I don’t feel up to changing it cleanly. I wish I’d have sought which name is better before assign the text under its current name. Chocolateediter (talk) 19:04, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Is it tag, it is deleted then move if so I’ll do it Chocolateediter (talk) 19:08, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I have requested the deletion. Dormskirk (talk) 19:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Reverted - we have an ongoing discussion, when this discussion is closed, the admin will take care of it. There's no real hurry here that we can't wait the full 7 days. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 21:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you is it instant or take time I’ll be able to move it. Chocolateediter (talk) 19:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * It will depend on an admin or page mover being content with it and dealing with it. Dormskirk (talk) 19:18, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Alright Chocolateediter (talk) 19:20, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Restore to Cleveland, England, but the geographical region will need renaming, Cleveland (county) is okay, but could be confused with Cleveland County Red Jay (talk) 19:26, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * A hatnote from this to Cleveland County would probably be sufficient since US counties are named "X County" while this is only "X" per WP:SMALLDETAILS. I'd wandered previously if there should be a separate article for the county from the general area since the county didn't include all of the area so I'd keep this article.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 19:34, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Merge back into Cleveland, England from where it was extracted in the first place. Do not need 2 articles covering the area. Keith D (talk) 23:16, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

On the Archdeacon of Cleveland article I found the name has been in use since atleast 1100s so why are Red Jay and Kieth D adamant on reinserting a county that lasted 12 years. Chocolateediter (talk) 12:11, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

This article should be called “Cleveland (county)” it should remain wholly separate from Cleveland England article which is about the historic Cleveland name not the areas such as Hartlepool which formed this UK example. See similar example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avon_(county) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:4C01:2D00:ADE6:F79B:F5C6:93D4 (talk) 18:29, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Post move discussion
I only noticed this discussion now after pages had been moved. The move to Cleveland (county) is absolutely terrible idea. This is completely ambiguous with the US counties named Cleveland. On the other hand, the US counties are never referred to as "County Cleveland" (or "County of Cleveland") in common language. There might perhaps be some documents written in officialese that use this formulation, but it is not commonly used. older ≠ wiser 20:42, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You're welcome to start another move discussion in the future (although to do so immediately may be considered disruptive), but not unilaterally overturn a consensus by yourself. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  21:46, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I only noticed the discussion after I had already undone what appeared to be very ill-considered moves. If no one else is bothered by the ambiguity of this new title, I'm not going to trouble myself over it any further. older ≠ wiser 22:00, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Cleveland (English county) would probably be the best title if still ambiguous with the US ones though as noted I though that they always have "County" as part of their name.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 19:10, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Under Wikipedia naming conventions the articles about U.S. counties always have "County" in the title, but they are often referenced without the "county" part -- especially when context is clear or where the name is unique within an area. older ≠ wiser 22:15, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Abolition
"As the first of the Orders to be laid before Parliament, it was done in two stages"

This is unclear. The abolition was done in two stages by two orders. What is the significance of the first order in the above clause?

"The Cleveland (Structural Change) Order 1995[7] had the main effect of abolishing the County Council, whilst the Cleveland (Further Provision) Order 1995[6] abolished the actual administrative county"

Again this is unclear - or is it even wrong? If the county council was abolished, how could the administrative council continue to exist?

It seems to me that the first order abolished the county council and delegated its functions to the boroughs within its area, and the second order made those boroughs into counties (ie unitary authorities).

Puzzlingly the new "counties" don't have councils, apparently:-

"Section 2(1) of the Local Government Act 1972 (which provides that every county shall have a council) shall not apply in relation to the counties constituted by paragraphs (2) to (5) above."

or, argualbly, without *county* councils:

"Article 3 provides for the abolition of the county of Cleveland and for the constitution of four new counties (but without county councils) on the same boundaries as the existing districts in the county, all of which have been granted borough status — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.163.160 (talk) 17:48, 30 November 2021 (UTC)