Talk:Cleveland Guardians/Archive 1

Broncos or Bronchos
It seems unclear whether the 1902 version of the Indians were called the Broncos or Bronchos. The Indians web page as well as the book Our Tribe, by Terry Pluto say the Broncos. Terry Pluto did a whole chapter on the team name, although the emphasis was on the Indians name. Some web pages say "Bronchos", though. It is unclear whether Bronchos is misspelling or Broncos is a modern simplification of a strange spelling.
 * Sites that use the Bronchos spelling include The Baseball Hall of Fame, baseball-reference.com, The Cleveland Indians Encyclopedia, and the Baseball Almanac. Google returns 448 hits for "cleveland bronchos" and 95 for "cleveland broncos". EurekaLott 23:19, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Keep in mind that this was probably not an "official" nickname. In fact, the team did not even wear an Indian logo on their uniforms until 1928.  Prior to that it was generally a 'C' at home and 'CLEVELAND' on the road.  According to my dictionary, BRONCO is the preferred spelling, being taken directly from the Spanish, with BRONCHO as an alternate.  And there was an NFL Hall-of-Famer named BRONKO Nagurski.  If someone gets real desparate, maybe they could actually do some original reasearch, by sifting through the microfilm files of the Plain Dealer starting in 1900 when the team was first put there, and finding out what the real story is. Wahkeenah 17:52, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Shapiro Years
The Shapiro Years section, especially the 2006 off-season, is far too long. The Crisp trade needs to be set in context - perhaps one sentence, two at most, not a lengthy paragraph. Tytrain 22:47, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * They could do it in chapters. It would be a Coco Crisp serial. Wahkeenah 00:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Forest City club and National League era sections
Not sure how they directly relate to the Indians. I would eliminate both of those sections entirely, but perhaps some mention of baseball in Cleveland before the Indians is necessary for the article. DandyDan2007 22:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. The information is interesting but the material belongs in articles on the older teams.  Since the article has been tagged as being too long this would be an easy way to shorten it.--Beirne 00:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

John Adams
Any thought of mentioning John Adams, the drum beater in the stands? There was a great article written about him last July, around the 9th (unfortunately it's gone from cleveland.com now and apparently never has been in the long-term archive). Mapsax 23:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I would be interested in working on or contributing to a John Adams article. Are you still interested Mapsax? Schneau 21:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Graves flag
I am changing the flag next to Danny Graves from Vietnam to the USA. I think the flag should represent one's nationality and not one's birthplace. As far as I know Graves has never identified himself as a national of Vietnam and has lived the a total of 14 months out of 33 years. Montco 02:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Kinston eagle 23:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Sockalexis name origin
Why does this page insist that the team wasn't named after Sockalexis? It was, at least indirectly. When the Naps needed a new name, the sportswriters chose "Indians" because that's what the 19th-century N.L. club was called. And the N.L. called was called that because of Sockalexis. The Indians' media guide and Web site (the latter cited as a source for the Wikipedia article) say the team has its name because of Sockalexis. What do the Wikipedians know that the Indians' flaks don't? --  63.174.21.30 (Talk)


 * What they know that the "conventional wisdom" (including the editor of the Indians' media guide) does not know, is that Terry Pluto, who actually researched the issue for his book, The Tribe, learned that the inspiration for the name Indians in 1915 was primarily the stunning success of the Boston Braves in the 1914 World Series. The fact that the defunct National League team of 1897-98-99 was sometimes called the "Indians", due to Sockalexis' presence on the squad, was a factor in the decision, but was not the main reason. Wahkeenah 04:32, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Can someone give a reference where the team is referred to as the "Redskins" either today or in the past in the same way "The Tribe" is used? I've been a fan of the Tribe since I was a kid in the 70's and I have never heard or read were the team has been referred to by that nickname. I feel that when listing nicknames for any team that only nicknames promoted by organization or currently embraced by supporters of the team should be included. Any commonly used nicknames of the past that have fallen out of use, I believe, should only be noted if it can be referenced as being in use once. StrayKat 23:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

We've got vandals
So as the indians get closer to the world series, looks like we've got some idiot vandals. i'm fixing the ones i spot, but could we please get an admin to protect this page? thanks. -  preschooler @  heart   05:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You can request page protection at WP:RFPP. -- Dachannien TalkContrib 05:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Trivia
I keep removing the trivia section, but keep on being reverted by people who doesn't know much about policies. None of this trivia is sourced, which is key for merging that trivia to the main article. The rest of this trivia should belong in the articles of the players and the statium, not in the main team article themselves. There is nothing to merge Secret account 21:28, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I support Montco edits Secret account 22:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Not entirely, a couple of bits are pretty easily sourced and some have been incorporated. Other crap, like the jokes, are unsourced and can be pretty generic. WP isn't a joke book and if something is genuinely notable, drop it in Wikiquote. The Baerga thing is a Baerga record, not an Indians record and is more appropriate in the Baerga article. We aren't a repository for every obscure mark that a player makes. Does Lou Boudreau still hold the record for most home runs in a one game playoff? Big deal. The bug thing is more appropriate to Cleveland Stadium or 2007 American League Division Series. Finally, lots of games have been snowed out. Why not drop it in 2007 in baseball? Montco (talk) 22:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oops, edit conflict thereMontco (talk) 22:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, the jokes were the main sourcing concerns I had, the rest can be easily sourced, but should go to the players articles which is mostly mentioned already. Montco has my exact thoughts in this issue. Thanks Secret account 22:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And to the ballpark articles, respectively. The big stadium was notorious for bugs. The Indians themselves weren't, as such. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Instead of just removing the trivia section wholesale, how about figuring out what can and can't be sourced, and what belongs in other articles, and make justified changes to merge the trivia section in an appropriate manner. By removing the entire trivia section, you make it much more difficult for other editors to know what has and hasn't been properly merged elsewhere.  Also, WP:TRIVIA notes that the trivia guideline isn't intended to provide justification for simply wiping out trivia sections altogether (messy presentation is better than no presentation).  WP:RS is a guideline, one that I think can be temporarily ignored while this process takes place so that good information isn't ultimately lost to the confusion of edit wars.
 * Please, please, go through each individual trivia statement, attempt to source it, and note for each trivia statement in the edit history whether you were successful in merging it somewhere or not. -- Dachannien TalkContrib 19:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the ballpark references are duplicated from the ballpark articles. I don't think they need to be in this article, as they aren't about the Indians per se, just about their venues, so I'll take them away once I confirm that. The lousy play of the Indians, for their last couple of decades in the stadium, is another story... still requiring verification, of course, even though you and I know it to be true.. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 20:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks like it's all covered now. Excellent. d:) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks much to the folks who carefully reviewed the trivia section and dealt with it appropriately! :)  -- Dachannien TalkContrib 21:36, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Indian uprising.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:OldClevelandIndiansLogo.jpg
Image:OldClevelandIndiansLogo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

New Peer Review?
The article had a peer review done a while ago. Since some of us have worked pretty hard to expand the article, anyone think about re-submitting the article for a peer review that might eventually get worked into a WP:GA nomination? Only asking first because I would appreciate the help in getting comments addressed when they arise.

Montco (talk) 16:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: In the "Season-by-Season Results" section, you might want to summarize the current season. Spencer  T♦C 17:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No thats just a bad idea Frank Anchor Talk to me (R-OH) 19:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Only team not to win a division title
I admit to being a bit lost at the tidbit that the Indians were the only team in the two-division era not to win a division championship. Seattle never won one either--do they not count because they weren't around for the *entire* era? If that's the case, that should probably be clarified. PeteF3 (talk) 02:27, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right, the Mariners' first title didn't come until 1995. The article needs to be clear on that point, or else it needs to be dropped as being "unsourced". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Clarified by adding "non-expansion." A source would be helpful tooFrank Anchor Talk to me  (R-OH) 02:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That qualifier makes it rather less significant and makes me wonder what its point is. The teams that formed in 1961 and 1962 won some division titles in the two-division era. In fact, 3 of the 4 of them did. Washington/Texas failed to. So I think that stat is of little value. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I probably would not include it. If it were clear cut, then I would.  But at this point, Cleveland is the only team to have played in the entire two-division era that was not an expansion team to fail to win a title.  Doesn't really mean much.  Montco (talk) 05:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Cap Insignia is the Script I for the Blue Alternate Uniforms
After doing away with the sleeveless uniforms that used the Script I cap, they now wear those with the blue uniforms, and no longer the Chief Wahoo Cap. The picture is incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domanator (talk • contribs) 15:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

GA Review
Just to point out, I quick-failed it because i noticed several unreferenced sections. That being said, this team article is a lot better than many, and it's not too far from GA status. I'll help out where I can. Wizardman 22:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Nickname and Logo Controversy
It seemed incongruous that, on the one hand, the discussion page (and my own understanding of the situation) indicates that the "contoversy" is minor... yet on the other hand, the controversy was featured prominently in the article's lead, as if it were a fundamental, defining part of the Cleveland Indians baseball team. So, I copied this stuff to its own section down the page. Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 14:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The Cleveland club was also called The Molly Maguiers, so called after the miners of that era. The owner made his fortune in mining and the players, being restive and wanting to be paid fairly were given that name. This was around the 1909-1910 years. It was an on official name but it was a name that they went by.

Disambig links
It looks like these need to be fixed. §hep Talk  00:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


 * You guys also might want to check out WebCite, that way you don't have to worry about the links going dead in the future. §hep  Talk  00:20, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed the disambigs, thanks. I have actually used webcite in the past for other articles.  Finding cites for so much of this stuff has been so time consuming that I haven't gotten around to it. TastyPoutine talk (if you dare)  00:58, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Logo
I'm amazed there's nothing here about the controversy over the logo. (I'm seeing what I can find in good references.) - David Gerard 22:11, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Has there even been any controversy recently? I know there was a lot of complaining about the Indians and the Braves in the mid-1990s, but I thought that had kind of died out when they complainers were basically ignored. I do know that the Portland Oregonian made an editorial decision a few years ago to not refer to Native American nicknames, just the team names (i.e. "Cleveland" always, "Indians" never). I wonder if they are still doing that? Wahkeenah 00:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, Marc Okkonen's book on baseball uniforms indicates that The Tribe first wore an Indian logo on their 1928 jerseys, a profile of a conventional Indian a la the Buffalo nickel only with a fuller headdress. "Chief Wahoo" first appeared on the 1947 jersey. Presumably we have Bill Veeck to thank for that. Wahkeenah 02:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Here's one article that talks about this a bit. Wahkeenah 02:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The plot thickens. This article says there was a comic strip Chief Wahoo that preceded the Indians' logo by more than a decade, and I'm guessing it was the inspiration for the logo. Wahkeenah 02:16, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Being a local Clevelander, and from what I've seen of these "logo protests", there is just a handful of Native Americans involved, and I heard from past local news reports, these people don't even live around here. I think their "leader" is some guy from Canada, and I've never seen more than ten at most who picket during the games. Usually it's like 3 to 5 people (if any at all), and the fans just blow them off. They aren't allowed on the property (or so a Jake security guard friend of mine said) so they protest on the sidewalk outside the main gate. It's such a trivial deal to Indian fans around here and none of them really care. I'm sure the logo is here to stay. Cyberia23 21:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm really surprised there isn't more controversy about the logo. At the very least, you'd think someone would change the logo to have a more realistic skin tone. ("Red Indians" aren't literally red, you know.) Maybe fans of the Cleveland Indians don't care, but they ought to. 99.225.130.171 (talk) 18:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I remember seeing at the Baseball Hall of Fame a photograph from the 1910s or 1920s of a large group of Native Americans in ceremonial dress being honored on the field at an Indians game. I wish I could find a record of it online. The caption stated that they regarded the name of the team positively, and the fact that they would turn up for the affair would seem to suggest that was in fact the case. Sylvain1972 15:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

New Uniforms for 2011 Season
The uniforms picture needs to be updated to reflect the new changes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.254.235.140 (talk) 16:12, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No rush. I'm actually changing the template to an updated ore detailed one.  Gonna hopefully roll them out at the start of spring training.  As you may know, the Padres just released new uniforms, so I'm gonna wait until spring training because then all uniform changed should be finalized, and we will get pics of them in action so the images can be as accurate as possible.  By the way, does anyone know what happened to the past uniform image?  Apparently someone added a new one, but it got deleted.  I can't find anything on its deletion, though.--The Silent Wind of Doom (talk) 19:51, 26 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't know what happened to that image, but I was the one who originally added it. --revolutionary (talk) 23:06, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Mike Hargrove
I hope some experienced Wikipedian will upload an image depicting Mike Hargrove as a Cleveland Indian rather than a Seattle Mariner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.212.75 (talk) 15:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Agree Same goes for the photo of Jim Thome. The most recent pic of a former Indian doesn't need to appear -- the article is highlighting the significant personnel of the Indians, past and present, and any pics should be of them when they were with Cleveland. Zepppep (talk) 08:52, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Chief Wahoo in the infobox
Is Chief Wahoo actually the cap insignia? It seems to me that the block C is the main insignia and the Wahoo caps are now alternates. If anything, the two should be reversed. -- 2602:306:3074:87B0:1510:888E:8A0A:BE27 (talk) 19:07, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The Indians use both logos on their cap and don't use either one the vast majority of the time. They generally use the Chief Wahoo hats with their home (white) uniforms and their alternate blue uniforms (home and away).  They use the blue block C hats with their road gray uniforms, and the red block C hats with their off-white alternate home uniforms.  If both can be included as cap insignias, then do that, otherwise I would suggest leaving it as it is, since the block C is already shown on the page.  Frank Anchor Talk 19:52, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Origin of the name
I recently edited the section Cleveland Indians regarding the origin of the team's name. Since this was a potentially contentious change, I will reproduce the text from the cited references for the benefit of other editors.

From the Sporting Life "They're Indians Now" dated March 22, 1897:

"There is no feature of the signing of Sockalexis more gratifying than the fact that his presence on the team will result in relegating to obscurity the title of 'Spiders,' by which the team has been handicapped for several season, to give place to the more significant name 'Indians.'"

From The Plain Dealer article "Baseball writers select 'Indians' as the best name to apply to the former Naps" dated January 17, 1915:

With the going of Nap Lajoie to the Athletics, a new name had to be selected for the Cleveland American league club. President Somers invited the Cleveland baseball writers to make the selection. The title of Indians was their choice, it having been one of the names applied to the old National league club of Cleveland many years ago.

The nickname, however, is but temporarily bestowed, as the club may so conduct itself during the present season as to earn some other cognomen which may be more appropriate. The choice of a name that would be significant just now was rather difficult with the club itself anchored in last place.

While picking a name for the Cleveland A. L. team, the committee also agreed that the Cleveland A. A. team owned too many names, and that while they were at it, it might be well to agree on just one name for the erstwhile Bearcats. Consequently, the other old nickname of the Cleveland National leaguers was adopted and henceforth all the local papers will call the A. A. club the Spiders.

So there you are—Indians and Spiders.

From The Plain Dealer article "Looking Backwards" dated January 18, 1915:

Many years ago there was an Indian named Sockalexis who was the star player of the Cleveland baseball club. As a batter, fielder and base runner he was a marvel. Sockalexis so far outshone his teammates that he naturally came to be regarded as the whole team. The "fans" throughout the country began to call the Clevelanders the "Indians." It was an honorable name, and while it stuck the team made an excellent record.

It has now been decided to revive this name. The Clevelands of 1915 will be the "Indians." There will be no real red Indians on the roster, but the name will recall fine traditions. It is looking backward to a time when Cleveland had one of the most popular teams of the United States. It also serves to revive the memory of a single great player who has been gathered to his fathers in the happy hunting grounds of the Abenakis.

Regarding the claim that the name was inspired by the Boston Braves, that was only the inspiration for the Indians wearing an Indian head on their uniform. From The Plain Dealer article "Indians to follow example of Braves" dated February 28, 1915:

"Following the example of the Boston Braves, the management of the Cleveland Indians intends to have an Indian head on the left sleeve of each of the suits of the Cleveland American league club players. In this way, the officials hope to keep the Indians reminded of what the Braves did last year, jumping from last place to first." Piriczki (talk) 19:38, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Grand Rapids in lead
I don't see the need to note Grand Rapids in the lead twice. It's simply unnecessary. Levdr1 lp /  talk  22:49, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Baseball Hall of Famers
It states "Players listed in bold are depicted on their Hall of Fame plaques wearing a Indians or Naps cap insignia". There is no differance between the names yet there are at least five players listed who in fact are not enshrined as Indians. Those would be Blyleven, Winfield, Neikro, Murray, and Eckersley (Twins, Padres, Braves, Orioles and Athletics respectivly). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Revrendp27 (talk • contribs) 16:57, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There's also no such thing as a "Naps cap insignia". That nickname was unofficial, and never appeared on their uniforms. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:32, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Cap Insignia
The cap insignia needs to be updated. Being from Cleveland, I know that the cap insignia has changed who to the Chief Wahoo controversy. This needs to be updated and properly cited. Pennylikeacoin (talk) 20:01, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The primary cap insignia has not changed. The Indians wear Chief Wahoo caps the majority of the time - with their primary home (white) jerseys and alternate (blue) jerseys both at home and on the road.  The block-C hats are only worn with their primary away (gray) jerseys and their seldom-worn cream-colored jerseys (which they wear the red caps with the blue block-C hats.  Also, your (incorrect) justification violates the policy on original research.  Frank Anchor Talk 14:16, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Won the A.L pennant in 1995
Can someone let who can fix the indians Wikipedia that they won the A.L pennant in 1995 when we went to the world series to face the Alanta Braves Lddb216 (talk) 07:11, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Now "Longest Drought" in MLB
I believe that given the fact that the Chicago Cubs no longer hold the title for longest-running drought as of the 2016 World Series, and that the honor now belongs to the Cleveland Indians, this should be indicated somewhere in the lead. Last time they won the WS was in 1948, nearly 70 years ago. --FuzzyGopher (talk) 06:08, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * First, the lead is a summary of the entire article, so there shouldn't be any unique info only found in the lead. It should be included the drought is the longest active drought, but still ranks 5th all-time behind the Cubs, White Sox, Red Sox, and Phillies. Cubs may not have the longest active drought anymore, but they most definitely still hold the record for longest drought. --JonRidinger (talk) 22:48, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

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Current Uniform
The three uniform combinations listed are correct, but there are also two other alternative combinations they haver recently worn. The blue jersey with the red "C" cap should be listed as an "ALT HOME" jersey. Another "ALT HOME" jersey is the blue jersey with the Chief Wahoo cap with red brim worn with the white jerseys. The "ALT AWAY" jersey should be the blue jersey with the Chief Wahoo cap with the blue brim. That cap is not represented on the current graphic. JimmyPiersall (talk) 14:31, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2017
For accuracy, I request that this paragraph be modified from its current articulation to the one suggested below it, because the 1916 New York Giants did NOT win 26 "CONSECUTIVE" games, as they had a tie game between their first 14 wins and their subsequent 12 wins.

Current: On September 14, 2017, the Cleveland Indians won their 22nd straight game. It extended the new American League record they set the previous game, while also becoming the longest winning streak in Major League Baseball in 101 years. The 1916 New York Giants won 26 consecutive games, which is the all-time Major League record.[5]

Revised: On September 14, 2017, the Cleveland Indians won their 22nd straight game. It extended the new American League record they set the previous game, while also becoming the longest consecutive winning streak in Major League history, surpassing the 1935 Chicago Cubs' previous record of 21 consecutive wins. It should be noted that the 1916 New York Giants won 26 games without a loss, but this streak included a tie game after the 14th win which interrupted that winning streak.[5] 174.104.120.66 (talk) 14:17, 16 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Not done: The score was tied when the game was suspended due to weather and does not represent a final score or official game. The game was re-played the next day—which the Giants won. Piriczki (talk) 14:43, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

New Logos for 2018
Now that Wahoo has been retired, the block "C" logo is both the team's primary logo and cap logo. In other articles where this is the case, such as San Diego Padres and Pittsburgh Pirates, we use the logo against a transparent background for the "Team Logo" field and the logo against a cap-colored background for the "Cap Logo" field. (The Milwaukee Brewers are an exception because although they elevated their cap logo to "primary logo" status, it was in a different color combination.) I'm updating this article to reflect that the block C is both primary and cap logo, and treating it the same as similar articles. SixFourThree (talk) 18:14, 19 November 2018 (UTC)SixFourThree