Talk:Clifton Heights Orange & Black

Deletion of references etc.
Hi. This is just the usual WP:BRD. All the references to comcast.net are dead, and that is an HTTP redirect to [/my.xfinity.com xfinity.com], so it seems unlikely that we can ever get them back. In any case, the article is relying mostly on a WP:SINGLESOURCE.

As I'm sure you know, it is the editor's responsibility when adding references to show that they are WP:RS. With your reversion, you should then show that they are RS.... which you can't. Hence we are at the D bit. Actually what I wanted to find out, is whether it is "&" or "and", as the article is inconsistent about it.

I'm not some first-time editor here, I just prefer to be an IP ed. Thanks 84.236.27.182 (talk) 23:33, 6 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The first reference here at explorepahistory.com in the text actually calls them the "Clifton Heights Black and Orange", not the "Orange and Black". The Pro Football archives doesn't mention them at all... only Clifton Wessingtons. The article is essentially unreferenced, or at best, the only reference that can actually be traced is calling them "Black and Orange" not "Orange & Black".... I'm sure you know better than me and I'll try to find better references, but it is what it is, essentially completely unreferenced and contradictory to what the one reliable source actually calls this team. 84.236.27.182 (talk) 23:47, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi. My revert wasn't because I was assuming you were acting in bad faith (hence my "reverting good faith edits [...]" revert) or because you are an IP editor. It was mostly because many people engage in drive-by removals of 404ing references; in my experience, they can often be found in archives – even if they can't, they should usually be kept per WP:KDL, since they can still serve as a starting point for future research by others. I have no objection to their removal if you plan on substituting them with better references, though it might be better to keep the dead links until you have added references. Just as a suggestion: I wouldn't have reverted if you had indicated that you were adding better references soon and it's usually good practice to not simultaneously revert when invoking BRD. Best, — Blablubbs (talk • contribs) 23:52, 6 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Sure, neither am I... we're both in good faith I am sure. I will  you this time but I'm guessing it is on your watchlist so please tell me if the pings are unneeded.
 * I found a ref at Retroseasons.com which also calls them the "Black and Orange" not the "Orange and Black"... do we have it the wrong way around here? As I get a few refs.... I'm English and know nothing about American football, but it seems to me they were more commonly known as the "Black and Orange" not the "Orange and Black"? If you're in the US, you will probably get different search results from me here in Hungary... at least that's a start! 84.236.27.182 (talk) 23:57, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * this one at coursehero is titled "Black and Orange" but the text calls them the "Orange and Black" or "Orange & Black" throughout... obviously we should try to get WP:COMMONNAME here.... 84.236.27.182 (talk) 00:06, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the "Black and Orange" vs "Orange and Black" issue will probably be easier to resolve than the specific spelling; I can imagine that different sources might have used &/and interchangeably. This item description, while not a reliable source, uses "Orange and Black" – arguably not reliable, but it might be a hint. I get some search results for all of the spelling variants that are possible here, but nothing that I could comfortably call definitive. I only came across this page and your edit through the recent changes feed, so I'm probably not the best person to discuss this with either way, but I've invited some editors from Wikiproject Sport to take a look and I'll do my best to have a look as well if I have time. I think contemporary sources (possibly via newspapers.com or similar) or books might be the best bet for finding out. Reference desk/Entertainment (which sports belong to) may also be an option. I've watchlisted, but feel free to ping me anyway; I forget to check my watchlist on occasion. Best, — Blablubbs (talk • contribs) 01:43, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Mi van, nem tudom itt vagy ott. (To translate: Where am I, I don't know here or there). Stumbling with my blunderbuss I have somehow ended up translating Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2020_October_6 into English, but as an IP a can't do the Wikidata link for it, it seems.... I've added the attribution on the talk page (as IP I can create talk pages)... the words themselves are not troublesome, it is doing all the checkwiki etc to make sure all the links work and go to the right places, takes far more time.
 * Thank you for all you help and you are quite right to call in the experts. It's good to know that the Wikipedia spirit of trying to make it better is still alive. 84.236.27.182 (talk) 02:08, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I've tried to help out with some general gnoming (wikiprojects, archive links, short description, typo fixes) on that page and added the enwiki page to Wikidata. Please feel free to reach out to me if you ever want a second pair of eyes (or hands) on something or if lack of an account keeps you from improving the encyclopaedia. Thanks for your contributions and best, — Blablubbs (talk • contribs) 09:13, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I kinda semi-randomly threw in into the search engine, and it is a redirect to the beatuiful insect Vanessula. Whereas  goes to Clifton Heights.... is this blocking that? I'm going to  as that admin said if I needed any help, but Thryduulf is perfectly neutral and knows nothing about this one (in the best way, I mean). The thing that first drew my attention to this, but I could never remember exactly, was plenty of redirects by User:Neelix with stupid colour names. Now, patently these are sensible colour names, but the Black and Tans (which some may consider not neutral, I have no opinion on that) and Black & Tans etc, all go to the same place. I think that WP:SMALLDETAILS comes into play here... but what do you think? 84.236.27.182 (talk) 08:12, 8 October 2020 (UTC)