Talk:Clifton Pugh

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Pictures for Article?
I suspect there are at least a couple of people contributing to this article that may have personal pictures of Pugh and/or images of his art. This article needs an image of the artist and some of his art, but anything I can access on the web is copyright protected so can't be added to Wikimedia Commons by me. Weedwhacker128 (talk) 19:53, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I will look for an earlier picture, ideally one that includes a painting: after all that's what he was, an artist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Claire Carstairs (talk • contribs) 23:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. More images would help this article immensely.Weedwhacker128 (talk) 03:11, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Protanope colour vision deficiency
Please stop blanking this information. There is clear evidence in the literature that Clifton Pugh had deficient colour vision; Traudi Allen, pages 24, 26; Judith Pugh's Unstill Life, page 17, etc. The entire Cole and Harris study is online. If you have reputable and accessible sources to rebut this please present them for discussion on this page before deleting this section again. Weedwhacker128 (talk) 16:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately the study is incorrect. I am located in the UK,which is where I got to know Clifton Pugh. I had discussions with his opthalmologist in the UK and have recently been in contact with an academic opthalmologist in Melbourne who conformed that this is NOT good science. The information should not be displayed. I am doing a thesis on the Pughs in the 1970s and had a close relationship, throughout the time in the UK,with them.


 * Claire, I have problems with you being located in the UK as you are also making changes and comments via an IP address that is located with Optus Internet in Melbourne, Australia.Robert of Richmond (talk) 04:17, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Also it would be nice of you to sign your posts with the four tildes as the rest of us do :-)


 * Why on earth does it matter where my IP address is? I travel widely, It so happens that my husband, who is an Australian, uses this address, I am entirely ignorant of what this even means. I have no idea what four tildes are. Judith Enos drew my attention to this Wikpedia article because she knew of my scholarly interest in and relationship with the Pughs. I plan to see if I can supply photographs in which Judith Pugh holds copyright, but I doubt she will supply them to accompany an article which talks about his supposed colour vision issue in this way. Judith Enos said the writer sent a copy to Judith Pugh and she was very irritated by the error.


 * Query Claire: when you say "the writer" to whom are you referring? The Wikipedia material has no one writer.--Robert of Richmond (talk) 04:42, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry Judith Pugh is irritated however that does not justify removing relevant and cited material from this Wikipedia article. Also note that Judith Pugh's Unstill Life (pages 17, 26, 101 and 270) is cited by Cole and Harris on page 2 of their study! Weedwhacker128 (talk) 19:47, 4 September 2010 (UTC)


 * And why is Judith Pugh irritated when her own memoir of her life with Clifton Pugh refers to his colour vision problems Robert of Richmond (talk) 07:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The Cole and Harris study was accepted for publication in the peer reviewed journal Clinical and Experimental Optometry. This satisfies Wikipedia's requirement for Verifiability (see WP:SOURCE.  If you have published material to rebut Cole and Harris (or Allen, or Judith Pugh, pages 17, 26, 101 and 270) please present it here, or add it to the section with acceptable citations. Weedwhacker128 (talk) 00:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)


 * It may have been peer reviewed but who are the peers? Pugh's nephews, not his sons, were examined: the tone of the article is unsatisfactory.


 * Clifton Pugh's sons would not be tested for this genetic disorder as it was passed to Clifton by his mother, Violet, and it could only be detected in daughters of Clifton Pugh, of which there are none. At a minimum it would be reasonable to read the study before modifying the section that describes the study. Wiley publishes the Journal of Clinical and Experimental Optometry, and state that it is peer reviewed.  Please read WP:SOURCES. Weedwhacker128 (talk) 18:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Not sure what you mean by "unsatisfactory" Claire (or 114.). Surely the conclusion was that being colour blind did not mean you could not be an artist. So just what are you on about? And why? Robert of Richmond (talk) 07:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Now we again have deletion of the colour blindness section by 203.51.53.55. Corrected by Weedwhacker - thanks. Funny that we have had three attempts to delete that section by 114.76.159.228 (Melbourne, Australia) and Claire Carstairs and now 203.51.53.55 (NSW Australia). Could they all possibly be the one person? Robert of Richmond (talk) 03:41, 14 January 2012 (UTC)Robert of Richmond (talk) 19:57, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Interesting find on the Internet about sockpuppets:

The original Claire Carstairs and both the IPs listed above have been "determined" to modify or remove any reference to the problems with color blindness in the Wikipedia article on Clifton Pugh. These seem to have been blocked/reversed by weedwhacker128 (Thanks pal!). 114.76.159.228 and Claire Cartstairs have also both been involved in similar contributions to other pages, which is why I have connected them. The Ips listed above, both in Australia, link in with the movement of the person I think is behind Claire Carstairs from Melbourne to NSW. Claire said at one stage in her Talk that she was in UK - but at that stage she was also working from 114.76.159.228. Ref http://www.territorioscuola.com/wikipedia/en.wikipedia.php?title=Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Claire_Carstairs/Archive — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert of Richmond (talk • contribs) 07:53, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Before you add, delete or modify material on the Clifton Pugh page...
Please read WP:ORIGINAL: original research is generally not allowed on Wikipedia. Please take a neutral point of view. Please provide reliable sources for all your modifications. Please read WP:NOT. Please do not delete relevant and cited material without discussion here. Thanks Weedwhacker128 (talk) 21:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I am interested to know why you are taking an authoritative stand, asking that no changes be made without discussion with you. There are a lot of fantasies about the Pughs, because they were so famous. Apart from the Macainsh book the work on Pugh lacks scholarship, the latest biography (Hey Claire, why did you put quotes round biography? Robert of Richmond (talk) 04:01, 4 September 2010 (UTC)) is sadly innacurate.


 * Hi Claire! You say the latest biography is "sadly innacurate" but you give no evidence for this. If you can't provide documented, referenced evidence for your judgment, then . . .Robert of Richmond (talk) 04:01, 4 September 2010 (UTC)


 * well for example, if I simply open the book...and on page 477 there is a reference to the London Apartment, where I first met them with the Enos', dear friends of both of them, with whom they stayed at Magdalen whenever they were in the UK.. It was not Palace Court Gardens, it was Palace Gardens Terrace. (referred to in the singular earlier in the book, where the author is confused about the UK Title system. In the UK you buy a lease, the place was not freehold I assume. The portrait of Judith at Windsor is described as fleecy lined---that coat was a sealskin/fox fur coat that Judith used to lend out whenever one of her friends in the UK wanted to impress someone....and Naomi Mitchison didn't have a town house, or city house as it is oddly described, she stayed with her daughter Val, who was married to Mark Arnold-Foster.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Claire Carstairs (talk • contribs) 15:55, 4 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Please abide by the Wikipedia policies referenced above. Unilaterally removing cited and relevant material is against Wikipedia policy.  Work published by reputable publishing houses is acceptable for Wikipedia.  Original research is not.Weedwhacker128 (talk) 03:11, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I've removed several sentences about living people that are not supported by citations. Given that at least one person mentioned in this biography appears to be a plaintiff in a defamation proceeding in Australia considerable care should be taken by editors to avoid violating Wikipedia's guidelines regarding living people. Weedwhacker128 (talk) 20:47, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It appears that action by Judith Pugh against Sally Morrison over her biography of Clifton Pugh "After Fire" has been settled with a payment to Judith Pugh but no changes in the Sally Morrison book http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/books/bookmarks-20120309-1up8m.html Robert of Richmond (talk) 01:42, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * In clarification of this "settlement", I am now informed, via email from the lawyers acting for Sally Morrison and the publishers, that "the matter was settled on the basis that Judith made an offer of compromise which was subsequently accepted by the insurer and Hardie Grant, and of course Sally. . . Sally is able to state on the public record she has not defamed Judith, does not believe the book defamed Judith and the settlement reached was a commercial decision made by the publisher." Sorry, had not logged in before making this edit" Robert of Richmond (talk) 04:27, 23 March 2012 (UTC)203.214.46.46 (talk) 04:23, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * However Judith Pugh is still insisting that she has been defamed, despite making the offer of compromise and accepting a substantial payment: See http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/bookmarks-20120330-1w2zd.html
 * "The settlement resulted in a payment to Judith. She is adamant the judgment(My comment:Please note that there has been no judgement only the offer of compromise by Judigh Pugh) was in her favour and the awarding of costs represents a public acknowledgement that Morrison's book defamed her. She says she is determined that Morrison's book should not continue to be sold and is threatening further legal action." Robert of Richmond (talk) 07:11, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Clifton Pugh and Murder
This is a serious charge for a Wikipedia biography. Can someone with access to the cited book please track down page number(s) and add those numbers to the inline citation. If the murder reference cannot be found in the cited material then this needs to be removed as it violates Wikipedia's policy of Verification. Thanks Weedwhacker128 (talk) 21:23, 4 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll try to get the Judith Pugh book and find the references. In the meantime you might like to look at the ABC 7:30 Report program on Clifton Pugh in September 2009 http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2009/s2681420.htm It would seem that the idea of Pugh as a murderer originated with Judith Pugh. Robert of Richmond (talk) 00:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Have the Judith Pugh book. A quick look through located two possible citations:
 * On page 131 Judith quotes Pugh from memory as having said (in the 1970,s) "...planes ... dropping leaflets on the Japanese, telling them they were losing the war, that if they surrendered they'd be looked after. These Japs surrendered to this unit. They shot them."
 * On page 332 she writes "So one night, as he began the story, I said that I knew he was the person who'd done the murders. Robert of Richmond (talk) 01:22, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Shame he is not alive to refute or discuss this. A young man sent off to war in strange places - and sorry in war you did kill people, my mother's generation did in WWIIRobert of Richmond (talk) 04:01, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Robert, I fixed the cite. Weedwhacker128 (talk) 02:41, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

After an extensive search I can't find a single secondary source for the claim that Pugh shot POWs in New Guinea during WWII. Given that no secondary sources appear to be available, and given that Pugh's notability is primarily as an artist (i.e. why this page is here), I've removed the claim. Weedwhacker128 (talk) 20:41, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that Weedwacker.Robert of Richmond (talk) 01:21, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Okay, the "shooting POWs" claim has been reinserted by the mystery editor with a primary citation that is inaccessible to me. Does anyone other than the mystery editor have access to a copy of Clifton Pugh's personal papers and can confirm that this citation actually says what the mystery editor claims it says? Once again, declaring someone to be a mass murderer requires a solid attribution on Wikipedia! Thanks. Weedwhacker128 (talk) 16:24, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Ongoing attempts to modify the Pugh article
We again have some odd changes to the article attempted by both "Marian Sadler" who has no user page and also 49.176.104.94 (Sydney NSW Australia)

Relates back to changes made by 114.76.159.228 (Melbourne, Australia), "Claire Carstairs" and 203.51.53.55 (NSW Australia).

There does seem to be an ongoing attempt to make changes to the article by??? Robert of Richmond (talk) 07:57, 23 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I possibly now have some clue based on what keeps getting added and deleted, based on archived news reporting in Australia, and based on a scan of the summary of the libel suit in Australia. If my hunch is correct then I would urge the person in question (and I'm now quite sure it is one person) to read the entirety of Conflict of interest.  E.g. "Any external relationship – personal, religious, political, academic, financial, and legal – can trigger a conflict of interest." Given Wikipedia's COI guidelines I believe the editor in question should consider whether it is appropriate that she should continue making modifications to Clifton Pugh. Weedwhacker128 (talk) 16:24, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Weedwhacker for your work here. Robert of Richmond (talk) 06:37, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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List of exhibitions
Dear fellow editors, a list of Clifton Pugh exhibitions, even just the solos, would be very handy. He's not my area (and life is short) but I have added Pugh shows to Peter Bray Gallery, Realities Gallery, Toorak Art Gallery, Brummels Gallery, Gallery A which could be incorporated. Thank you, Jamesmcardle(talk) 04:16, 18 October 2020 (UTC)