Talk:Climate of Minnesota/Archive 2

New Article proposal
I've been putting together a lot of info to expand this article. How does this look? I haven't done any of the formatting or references yet, but would like to get an idea of the layout and detail of this. The only major thing I have not done yet would be to add temperature and precipitation tables for a few cities across the state. Since I haven't checked up on everything yet I'm sure the deails aren't 100% accurate at this time, but I'll work on that. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gopher backer (talk • contribs)


 * I like it. good job.  I hope you don't mind - I went through it and made a few changes: spelling, broken links, added some useful links, and improved some awkward wording.  Still to be done: Hail should be mentioned, growing season variations by location, keep the snow-bound train picture, citations - the format I like to use for online sources is  Fill in as much information as you can find; rarely is it all available.  Subsequent uses of the same source are simply  Appraiser 20:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

To-do list
Expand Floods section a little * Change "Like a lot of states" to something else, or expand somehow in Floods section * when did the other floods occur? Change to overview then example? * Add another picture or two (in the lower half of the article) * summer -> "...high and low temperatures..." should that be ".. daily high..."? * Have an example of "Northern Minnesota is considerably cooler and less humid than southern Minnesota is during the summer months." ? * list tornado outbreak examples in date order (oldest first?) * Add references where there is the * Expand lead section ** Note, try this: Copy entire article to somewhere like User:Gopher backer/sandbox and start ripping material out of the article until only the most important sentences are left. Condense and re-write these as the introduction. ***Thanks, that worked well. How does the intro look now? Do I need to re-reference everything if that's already done farther down in the aricle? ****Nope, there shouldn't be any refs in the intro since the intro is just a summary of stuff described in more detail below. I'll take a look at the intro now... -Ravedave (help name my baby) 16:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC) ***** Looks great, just remove the refs. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 17:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC) * Is lake ice-in and ice-out worth mentioning? Is that climate? ** Hmm, good question. I don't think Ice-out is as much about climate as much as it's about an event that is affected by climate. I would consider Ice out, Dust storms, forest fires in that category. However, I think Floods could also be put in that same group, since it's a result of a climate condition. The reason why I put floods in there in the first place is becuase Minnesota has seen 2 or 3 really devestating floods over the past 10-15 years, but for consistencies sake maybe it should be removed. Or, maybe we could add another section devoted to topics not directly related to climate, but of natural phenomena affected by climate. Or maybe none of them belong in this article. Thoughts? Gopher backer 19:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC) why is it not surprising that fall and spring are windy? Add some info on hail Add info on the growing season Photos Climate tables for tbd cities (high, low precip?) More detailed formatting (celcius, metic additions) Gopher backer 03:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * backup "a frequent summer occurrence" with example? "one ever N days" ..." "N times a month"
 * It does list a figure (30-40 times per year) in the into section of Summer. Is that good enough?
 * Which famous blizzards did Panhandle Hooks produce?
 * Add blizzards and winter storms section under winter ?
 * I checked the appendix of the book I have. These are the page counts for the different things: floods at least 30. Fires (forest, prarie, city):6. ice-in part of one page. Dust storms 2, dust bowl 2. I think that floods shoudl stay in as a weather phenominom. Fires can probbably get a sentance under drought, and dust one under wind. Ice-in/out probably doesn't need to be mentioned, though it might be usefull to fishermen like me :) What do you think? -Ravedave (help name my baby) 19:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * add charts like here, done in SVG.

Temp & Precip tables
Any ideas on these? I tried to fit them in as best I could, but I'm not sure how good it looks, I just kind of made up the formatting since there does seem to be any pre-made templates for Climate of States (though there are some for climate for cities, but those won't work here...). I also have matching tables for celcius & centimeters but didn't know where to put these in. Would we want to put the tables in, just put those values in next to the existing values or just leave it as is? As for the cities, I tried to pick cities that were spread across the state, if there should be more of less let me know that as well. Gopher backer 04:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Tables look pretty good, I think they fit in nicely. I would put the celcius figures next to the F ones as in the reference I added to the last table. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 05:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Auto Peer Review
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Ravedave (help name my baby) 01:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.
 * Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -  between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 8 cm, use 8 cm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 8&amp;nbsp;cm.nbsp
 * Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), when doing conversions, please use standard abbreviations: for example, miles -> mi, kilometers squared -> km2, and pounds -> lb.
 * Per Wikipedia:Context and Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006, but do not link January 2006.linkdate
 * As per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), dates shouldn't use th; for example, instead of using January 30th was a great day, use January 30 was a great day.
 * As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space inbetween. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2]
 * Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.copyedit

Stuff to add?
I picked up a few Minnesota books from the library the other week and yesterday I remembered one was on climate. Here are the interesting things from it and a ref.

* Lake superior stifles convection and therefore tornadoes - p25 * Snow has fallen every month but July at some point, but Augusts fall was only a trace in duluth - p25
 * Quote on the back cover, might be usefull "Whats the adage in Minnesota? If you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes, it'll change? Mark seely brings us ..." - Cathy Wurzer
 * might be usefull in spring/fall sections?
 * I actually considered adding this statement, but when I did a Google search on that phrase I found that a lot of states/regions say the same thing about their weather. So while it may be true Minnesota more than other states, I wasn't sure if I should add it. http://www.google.com/search?q=don%27t+like+the+weather+wait+a+few+minutes&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2006-40,GGLD:en&start=10&sa=N  Gopher backer 19:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * There have been at least seven F5 tornadoes - Page 25
 * That sounds about right. Meteorological observations began in Minnesota in 1820.  186 years / 7 F5 tornadoes = 1 every 26 years.  But since you could make arguments about MInnesota not actually being a state until 1858, or the accuracy of reporting F5 in the 1800's, I didn't know if I should try to proclaim an exact number as fact, so I went with the "around one every 25 years" statement.  Did they say what the specific tornadoes were?  Wiki has a List of F5 tornadoes, but it only has 6 for Minnesota.  Gopher backer 19:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

* snow cover of 1+ inches averages 110 days in the state, 85 days in the south, 140 in the north. -p25

* example of an extreme winter: 96-97 with 11 blizzards statewide - p31
 * On average MN experncines one to two blizzards a season. - p31

* Except for the North shore Minnesota wind is primarly prevails from the south-woutheast during may-october and from the northwest nov-april. - p32
 * $215 million was spent on plowing roads that year. - p31
 * a blizzard is defined as : Winds exceeding 35 MPH, snow and blowing snow for 3+ hrs, visibility < 1/4mile, and falling tempreatures usuaally with dangerous wind-chills - p90
 * NWS classifies a winter storm as: hazoardous conditiosn resulting from siginificant quantieis of freezing or frozen preciptiation sometimes combined with strong winds and cold tempreatures. - p90
 * in minnesota it also implies 6+ inches of snowfall withing 12 hours or 8+ inches in 24 - p90
 * on avergae MN sees 3-4 winter storms a year - p90

** THANK YOU. I knew this to be fact but could not find anything to back it up. Gopher backer 19:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The book goes in this order, if you care: winter - coldest places, winter storms, siginifcant days - spring - snowmelt floods, may rituals, metorilogical lamentations, siginificant days - summer -hottest places, severe convection weather, growing season, significant days - fall - indian summe, fire weather, siginificant days - index

If there is anything in the article you want a second source for, ask me I bet its in the book. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 17:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Graph
This data could be used to make a nice graph. I will attempt to make a cool one with SVG soon-ish. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 03:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Will we be able to do this for several cities without cluttering up the page too much? The only problem with this is I don't think we should do just Minneapolis, because there is a Climate of Minneapolis, Minnesota page (which I will get to eventually) where that info could go if we were just going to do Minneapolis.


 * Another possibly solution would be to try and generate one graph for the whole state, but I don't know if there is a meteorologically possible way to find out definite averages like that for a whole state. Gopher backer 18:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't believe state averages should be used, they don't really demonstrate much of anything. Over 60% of the states residents live in the twin cities so a temperature measurement from there would probably be best. Maybe Chanhassen is the best spot though, because thats where the official federal readings are taken. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 19:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Peer review
I have submitted this article for peer review since GA seems to be clogged with hurricanes, and this is a long article which WP:GA recommends sending to peer review. I haven't removed the article from GA, but that can be done if anyone wants to.-Ravedave (help name my baby) 06:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

{ {Minnesota} }
Should this be placed on in this article? Gopher backer 16:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I would say, "yes". Appraiser 16:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Train Picture
I rearranged things a little bit to see if I could fit the train picture in the main body. However, I didn’t mind the train picture in the intro at all, so if we want to move it back there go right ahead. Even if that happens I think I like the end result of the other changes I made with the images and charts So in that case I’d try to find another picture to go where the train is right now. Gopher backer 18:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Like your placement. I just stuck it in there because I was in a hurry. The train pic is good and should stay in, I just didn't know where to put it. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 19:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I like having a photo on the first screen - to grab attention. I found a nice shot of Loring park for the Spring section.  Nice graph, Ravedave.  This article's looking good. Appraiser 21:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Tornado
Could you get another picture of that tornado, without the road sign? It's very distracting. (kidding) Appraiser 20:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

GA status
Very good. Suggest breaking lead into 4-5 paras and making it more of a summary--it seems too facty to me. Very little is said of Autumn in the lead and it seems short in the text compared to other seasons. The PR script is below for more tips:

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Rlevse 11:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC) ...Rlevse 11:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.
 * Consider adding more links to the article; per Manual of Style (links) and Build the web, create links to relevant articles.
 * Per WP:MOS, avoid using words/phrases that indicate time periods relative to the current day. For example, recently might be terms that should be replaced with specific dates/times.
 * Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -  between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 1 miles, use 1 miles, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 1&amp;nbsp;miles.
 * Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), when doing conversions, please use standard abbreviations: for example, miles -> mi, kilometers squared -> km2, and pounds -> lb.
 * Per Wikipedia:Context and Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.
 * This article may need to undergo summary style, where a series of appropriate subpages are used. For example, if the article is United States, than an appropriate subpage would be History of the United States, such that a summary of the subpage exists on the mother article, while the subpage goes into more detail.
 * Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.

Peer review closed
Well the peer review closed with no feedback. Should we try and clear up the auto-suggestions and then nominate for FA? -Ravedave (Adopt a State) 22:01, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought we'd taken care of most of that, but I'll go through it again when I can to see if I can find any mistakes. Question about the lead section though...  Does that really need to be made longer?  The lead section on this one is longer on than it is for Minnesota, and Minnesota is a much longer article.  I thought this one was pretty thorough.Gopher backer 16:21, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that the above comments suggest that it be split into more paragraphs, be made less facty and maybe even shortened a bit. -Ravedave (Adopt a State) 20:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

New intro
Thoughts?

The Climate of Minnesota is typical of a continental climate with cold winters and hot summers. Its location in the Upper Midwest allows it to experience some of the widest variety of weather in the United States, and each of the four seasons has its own distinct characteristics.

The areas near Lake Superior in the Minnesota Arrowhead region experience weather unique from the rest of the state. The moderating effect of Lake Superior keeps the surrounding area relatively cooler in the summer and relatively warmer in the winter, giving that region a taste of a maritime climate. On the Koppen climate classification, the southern half of Minnesota, roughly from the Twin Cities region southward, falls in the warm summer humid continental climate zone (Dfa), and the northern two-thirds of Minnesota falls in the cool summer humid continental climate zone (Dfb).

Winter in Minnesota is characterized by cold (below freezing) temperatures and snowfall. Snow is the main form of winter precipitation, but freezing rain, ice, sleet, and sometimes even rain are all possible during the winter months. Common storm systems include Alberta Clippers or Panhandle hooks, some of which evolve into blizzards.

Spring is a time of major transition in Minnesota. Early spring commonly sees snowstorms, but by late spring as temperatures begin to moderate the state can experience tornado outbreaks, a risk which lasts through the summer into the fall.

Summer sees heat and humidity predominate in the south, while warm and less humid conditions are generally present in the north. These humid conditions help kick off thunderstorm activity 30–40 days a year. Tornadoes are possible in Minnesota from March – November, but the peak tornado month is June, followed by July, May, and August.

Autumn weather in Minnesota is largely the reverse of spring weather. The jet stream, which tends to weaken in summer, begins to re-strengthen, leading to a quicker changing of weather patterns and an increased variability of temperatures. By late October and November these storm systems become strong enough to form major winter storms. Fall and spring are the windiest times of the year in Minnesota. Gopher backer 20:52, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I personally like the existing intro. We could nominate the article for FA status and see if anyone else doesn't like the intro. You ready to nominate it? -Ravedave (Adopt a State) 04:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This week would not be a good one for me to be around to answer questions, next week would be much better. I'd also like to go through it one more time to make sure everything still looks okay to me.  The one thing that jumps out right away are the lists I have for tornadoes and blizzards.  From what I've seen FA people don't seem to like lists.  Think that will be okay?  I agree that I like the existing intro, I made the other one according to the recommendations of the one person who commented on the article.  I've thought about the comments on the Fall section, but I just don't know what else I can do.  The period from September - November is the least active in Minnesota, with the exception of the early season blizzard.  I'm just not sure what you can write about that.  There is always things with the leaves & grasses turning colors, but that's doesn't really fit into this article IMO.  Gopher backer 19:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I am fine with the small lists the article does have, I don't think that turning the list of tornadoes into a paragraph would work, but blizzards you might be able to. When the leaves turn is apparently related to daylight and not weather so I am not sure that could be worked in. The Minnesota weather almanac book I have has these page counts for the seasons:winter = 48, spring = 18, summer = 67, fall = 17 pages. The fall section discusses soil freeze up, dates, Indian summer, and fires which a good chunk of the chapter is spent on. -Ravedave (Adopt a State)

Updated to-do list

 * I re-wrote the fall section. Opinions?
 * Should we standardize the captions on the photos? Putting towns in all of them, what do we wikilink, etc.
 * Any other suggestions? Besides these two things I'm pretty comfortable with it. Gopher backer 19:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a great article you have here. I'd suggest sending it over to peer review, then on to Featured article candidate! Congrats on your hard work! -Runningonbrains 22:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the fall section, a succinct section for a boring season. It already went through PR without any feedback so I say go for it! -Ravedave (Adopt a State) 01:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

GA oldid
I started to install the articlehistory template, and lost a lot of time trying to figure out why the oldid on GA is wrong here - if anyone can sort it out, that would be great. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 18:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Never mind - found by Circeus and fixed. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 19:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)