Talk:Clint Hocking

Lead formatting, WP voice, overlinking, and "when" tag issues
I'll break down the four separate issues with the status-quo reverting and  that just states I see no improvement in the lead. Pinging as the reviewer of the recent GA review. — MarkH21talk 16:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Lead formatting
The lead should be a summary of its most important contents (MOS:LEAD) and the first paragraph should define or identify the topic with a neutral point of view, but without being too specific (MOS:LEADPARAGRAPH). Major parts of the lead describe Hocking's career moves with far too much detail for such a short article, and the first paragraph only covers pre-2010 events of his life. The first paragraph is for provide an overview of the entire subject, not for the first half of the history of a subject. — MarkH21talk 16:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The first two sentences already define the topic. Clint Hocking is a Canadian video game director and designer. He has primarily worked at the Canadian developer Ubisoft, where he first designed and wrote scripts for 2002's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell. There is little point of having a one sentence long paragraph of an article when the lead is already pretty short. Regards  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 19:34, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Again, MOS:LEADPARAGRAPH means that the first paragraph (not sentence) is for an overview of the subject. Since the article is quite short, the lead should really be trimmed to just one short paragraph because there's way too much detail relative to the body right now. Regardless, it's a greater issue that the lead into two paragraphs based on pre-2010 and post-2010. — MarkH21talk 21:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * To meet MOS:LEADPARAGRAPH perhaps something like:

Clint Hocking is a Canadian video game director and designer. He has primarily worked at the Canadian developer Ubisoft, where he helped develop three titles and briefly worked at LucasArts, Valve, and Amazon Game Studios.

Hocking started his career at Ubisoft, where he first designed and wrote scripts for 2002's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell. Hocking rose to prominence when he moved up to direct 2005's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, which was both a critical and commercial success. He went on direct 2008's Far Cry 2, which was positively received by critics. In 2010, he left Ubisoft Montreal due to him being too comfortable at the studio and wanting a new challenge. Between 2010 and 2015, Hocking joined LucasArts, Valve, and Amazon Game Studios in various senior roles, in the United States. Throughout this period, he did not release any new games and in August 2015 returned to Ubisoft, this time at their Toronto studio. Soon after, development for Watch Dogs: Legion began with Hocking as the creative director. Across his career, Hocking has written monthly columns for the video game magazine Edge, and coined the term ludonarrative dissonance, which has been widely used in the industry.
 * Regards  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 21:55, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This is similar to the version that I changed it to and largely fine. I still think that it has a few unnecessary details for the lead, like in the United States and Throughout this period, he did not release any new games, or passive wording in development for Watch Dogs: Legion began with Hocking as the creative director. The lead does not need to describe everything that a person has done nor emphasize each location where a person has lived; the article body covers that. — MarkH21talk 16:56, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * End up changing the lead to:

Clint Hocking is a Canadian video game director and designer. He has primarily worked at the Canadian divisions of the French developer Ubisoft, where he developed three titles and briefly worked at LucasArts, Valve, and Amazon Game Studios.

Hocking started his career at Ubisoft, where he first designed and wrote scripts for 2002's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell. He rose to prominence when he moved up to direct 2005's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, which was both a critical and commercial success. He went on direct 2008's Far Cry 2, which was positively received by critics. In 2010, he left Ubisoft Montreal due to him being "too comfortable" at the studio. Between 2010 and 2015, Hocking joined LucasArts, Valve, and Amazon Game Studios in various senior roles. Throughout this period, he did not release any new games and in August 2015 returned to Ubisoft, this time at their Toronto studio. His first project at the studio is directing Watch Dogs: Legion. Across his career, Hocking has written monthly columns for the video game magazine Edge, and coined the term ludonarrative dissonance, which has been widely used in the industry.
 * Removed in the United States. Condensed Soon after, development for Watch Dogs: Legion began with Hocking as the creative director. to His first project at the studio is directing Watch Dogs: Legion. Also clarified that Ubisoft is a French video game developer but he worked at the Candian divisions. I decided to keep the mention that he did not release any games at LucasArts, Valve, and Amazon Game Studios since it is quite unusual to leave a video game developer without releasing a single game let alone three developers. Regards Spy-cicle 19:06, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Made some minor changes; it’s not necessary to delineate where Ubisoft is from in the lead here (specifying Canadian divisions is sufficient) and an upcoming game / first project at the new studio doesn’t need to be in the lead unless/until it becomes one of his major accomplishments (i.e. after the fact). — MarkH21talk 02:52, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

WP Voice
The lead states he left Ubisoft Montreal due to him being too comfortable at the studio and wanting a new challenge. This is attributed to him via a primary source (his blog) and not something that can just be stated in the lead in unattributed WP voice. This is also not really a detail that is "summary"-style mention for the lead. — MarkH21talk 16:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * That statement is found throughout reliable secondary sources as well. That statement is uncontroversial to be in Wikipedia's voice. Because this is Hocking's reasons as to why he left not anyone else's. Saying "According to Hocking, Hocking left Ubisoft left Ubisoft Montreal due to him being too comfortable at the studio and wanting a new challenge." would be illogical. I would understand if it were are more contentious statement like:
 * E.g. Statement from Hocking: "Far Cry 2 was the best game of 2008" --> Wiki voice: "Far Cry 2 was the best game of 2008". That would be violation of Wiki's voice. Regards  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 19:34, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The secondary sources only quote his blog post. The way that it's presented in quotation marks, Hocking left because he felt he had become "too comfortable" at the studio is an appropriate level of WP:INTEXT. But the reasoning for his moves from different companies isn't really something for the lead anyways (unless it is demonstrably controversial or an otherwise important part of his biography). — MarkH21talk 22:05, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I have changed he left Ubisoft Montreal due to him being too comfortable at the studio and wanting a new challenge. to he left Ubisoft Montreal due to him being "too comfortable" at the studio. I think it is worth a brief mention in the lead considering that he was there for nine years and a important part of his career. Regards  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 21:55, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Overlinking
Per MOS:REPEATLINK: Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers. I removed duplicate links, which are currently common throughout the article.
 * MOS:REPEATLINK reads: Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers, a link may be repeated in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, hatnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead. The ones you removed were their first occurence in the main body. Regards  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 19:34, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It may be helpful. I'm not sure that it's helpful when the lead is barely longer than the article body. — MarkH21talk 21:57, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree with you here I think it is helpful for reader to access these links within the main body regardless of the length of the article. Regards  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 21:55, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Per MOS:OVERLINK: Unless a term is particularly relevant to the context in the article, the following are usually not linked: [...] The names of subjects with which most readers will be at least somewhat familiar. This generally includes major examples of: locations (e.g., Berlin; New York City, or just New York if the city context is already clear. The link to San Francisco or Montreal currently in the article are examples of this. — MarkH21talk 16:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand not linking to major cities like: London, New York City or Tokyo. I am familiar with both SF and Montreal. But we have to remember English is spoken across the world so it is very easy for North American and other users to say they are familiar with these cities but in other places in the world they may not be as familiar with these cities. If you still think that it is overlinking feel free to delink them. Regards  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 19:34, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * These are pretty major cities that don't need wikilinks. — MarkH21talk 21:57, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I have gone ahead and delinked them. Regards  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 21:55, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

When tag
If the date is unknown, then there's no reason to remove the when template. The tag is for indicating vague timeframes and asking for clarification, like the current text Soon after which is less specific than something like sometime between 2002 and 2005. It's not clear what soon really means. — MarkH21talk 16:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The "Soon after" here already suggests "sometime between 2002 and 2005" as clear from the context since in the previous paragraph it was noted that Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell was released in 2002 and it was noted that Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory was released in 2005 in the same sentence. Regards  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 19:34, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It's still vague and imprecise language. It's not even certain when, between 2002 and 2005, development started let alone whether different people would consider that "soon". It's easily avoidable, so I would propose its replacement by something like: Hocking continued as the scriptwriter as well as the lead level designer in the development of 2005's Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory or After the 2002 release of Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell, Hocking worked as the scriptwriter as well as [...]. — MarkH21talk 22:12, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I have changed "soon after" to --> "After the release of Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell, ..." Regards  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 21:55, 28 April 2020 (UTC)