Talk:Cloak and dagger

Rapier and Cloake illustration
There is an illustration (unconfirmed date, probably from 16th/17th Century) in the second linked citation. It might be nice to post it within the article. I don't know if it's public domain. I've never uploaded an image file, so I'd have to read up on how to do it. NinetyNineFennelSeeds (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * My understanding is such a work would legally be public domain, as the standard is the life of the author plus 70 years. A 300+ year old work would surely fall into this category. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Legitimus (talk • contribs) 19:59, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. More interesting online illustrations of rapier and cloak. http://storm.alert.sk/swordsmanship/hutton/rapnclo.html From "Old Sword Play" (1892) by Alfred Hutton. NinetyNineFennelSeeds (talk) 23:18, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Origin
My understanding has been that "cloak and dagger" was first used in a review of The Three Musketeers. AusJeb (talk) 23:49, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't The Three Musketeers use swords?Legitimus (talk) 02:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

The terms épée and smallsword are used in modern English to denote the fencing weapon used in romantic costume novels and swashbuckler films so I wonder why it was translated as dagger which is a different kind of weapon. --Hodsha (talk) 12:37, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * épée just means "sword" in French, hence the original "cloak and sword" attributed to Longfellow. What remains unclear is what occurred in between Longfellow's remark and Dickens using "dagger" instead.  Despite being a year apart in usage, the meaning seems quite different.  Longfellow was largely commenting on something being a swashbuckler, where as the Barnaby Rudge quote is very overtly using it in the modern sense of sneaking around and being mysterious.Legitimus (talk) 13:19, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Who said there was a connection?--Jack Upland (talk) 05:01, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Dead Link
Second link is pointing to a dead domain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.198.209.164 (talk) 15:40, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Incomplete
The article mentions "The phrase has two possible origins". It mentions "The first". So where is "The second"? Thanks Stephen Howe (talk) 21:41, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The second paragraph is meant to be the second "origin" I think, but its not really an origin, but rather another meaning for the phrase. Agree it should be more clear on that.Legitimus (talk) 22:09, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Sword?
While fighting with sword and cloak clearly existed, I don't see the evidence that "cloak and dagger" ever referred to that. "Cloak and dagger" connotes secrecy, not swashbuckling.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:00, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Cloak and dagger (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC)