Talk:Close-mid central rounded vowel

Swedish
Is the Swedish vowel inrounded or outrounded? kwami 21:42, 2005 July 26 (UTC)
 * It has the same rounding as, i.e. compressed. Only and maybe  (I'm not sure about the last one) are protruded. Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 14:31, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Australian/New Zealand English vowel
Why is this not an New Zealand English vowel, as the sources (see Further reading) for this vowel in the New Zealand English article disagrees.

And why is it an Australian English vowel when the sources (see References & External link) in the Australian English phonology article for that vowel disagree with this? --203.94.135.134 (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The further reading section of NZE is all dictionaries; such phonetic detail in a dictionary would be surprising. I haven't seen any of them; if they go into detail about the vowel quality then I'm certainly game to accept that information but New Zealand English currently has citation issues so I've gone with a source that argues the vowel in NZE is actually more front, which is why I've included it in close-mid front rounded vowel.
 * Australian English phonology has an actual vowel quadrangle that shows the position of this vowel. The two sources cited in this article apparently argue that it's rounded.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  22:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but the source at Australian English Transcription Practice Exercises (see example 9) has the transcription for purse as . --203.94.135.134 (talk) 23:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, and we can't say that that the Practice Exercises are afraid of transcribing narrowly. Well, I guess we have a bit of conflict among our sources.  Not sure how to reconcile that.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  23:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ugh! Cox & Palethorpe (2007) don't seem to weigh in on the matter either! — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  21:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * How do you mean? --203.94.135.134 (talk) 22:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * They use, put it in the close-mid area on their chart, and don't talk about it. — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  22:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Australian English revised style IPA transcriptions, just the same as pre-revised style transcriptions, use /3/ for the NURSE vowel. This doesn't mean that the vowel is unrounded, it means that the vowel F1/F2 values imply that the vowel is not high, not low, not clearly front and not clearly back. They're based on an earlier IPA transcription style in which "3" was used to spell any central vowel that is not described (for one reason or another), as "@". The same symbol is generally continued because it was ambiguous about whether the vowel is rounded or not.

In AusE, the vowel is rounded by some and not rounded by others. That's pretty much the most definitive statement I've found in the literature. (I have a rounded vowel, for instance &mdash; impressive for a bird.) My ear suggests that the rounded vowel is further front than the unrounded vowel and more common; but perhaps there's two different unrounded values, one of which sounds the same (to my AusE-hearing ear) as the rounded vowel.

In NZ, the vowel is similarly sometimes rounded, sometimes not; but if memory serves literature was saying this earlier and implies if not says the vowel is more frequently unrounded. The NURSE vowel isn't one of the sounds that let you know you're speaking to a Kiwi as opposed to another Australian, though... I know less about NZE than I do about AusE, though.

In no case do I personally think the close-mid central rounded vowel is a good description or symbol of the vowel; I think the front rounded vowel is better for the rounded AusE and NZE values. But no literature I have seen has ever made a study based no articulation, it's always based on F1 & F2. This can't tell you whether the vowel is rounded or not, and rounding is as good as a bit of retraction for lowering F2.

My vote, therefore: Don't mention either here, or on other pages similar. The lists shouldn't need to be exhaustive and the Australian and New Zealand vowels are far from standard examples of these sounds. We might feel it necessary to point out that the AusE/NZ vowel is not (necessarily) the same as the RP vowel /3:/, because that *is* a standard example.

It's always hard making water hold forms...

—Felix the Cassowary 06:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Funny, cuz the RP vowel is actually mid, not open-mid, at least according to Roach (2004). — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  07:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The foot-vowel in more dialects
The table in the article lists several English dialects in which the vowel of foot, usually transcribed as, is pronounced as. However, I think more dialects could be added: this pronunciation is true in my Midwestern American dialect, though it isn't listed in the table. Regrettably I don't have a source to determine which dialects need to be added. — Eru·tuon 19:45, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

French pronunciation
This article claims, contrary to virtually every academic source, that the French je is [ʒɵ]. The only source for this claim, which has been reinserted by Mr KEBAB, is that a certain soap opera writen Geoff Lindsey has written it on his blog about English. Even if we would accept that Lindsey's blog satisfied WP:RS (and it doesn't), it would still be an extreme WP:FRINGE view. As such, I'm removing it again. Blogs are not reliable sources, blogs about English are even less reliable for establishing French usage. If the only source that can be found is Lindsey's blog, it establishes very well how fringe his views are. Jeppiz (talk) 12:33, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Why are you so desperate to sound like an authority on something you're ignorant about? See Mid central vowel to understand how wrong you are. The typical Standard Parisian pronunciation is a somewhat rounded schwa, according to Lindsey it's a bit higher and that's why I put it here. You also seem to deeply misunderstand who Geoff Lindsey is. Troll much? Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:11, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You would do well to learn up on basic Wikipedia policies. I've explained my reasoning, you respond with personal attacks. Any future policy violations will be reported. As for the matter at hand, it is rather irrelevant what you (or I) think about it, and what Lindsey thinks about it. Wikipedia operates by sources, not WP:TRUTH. Open any standard reference book on French phonology, and you will see it gives the pronunciation of je as [ʒə] Jeppiz (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, I admit I lost my shit, sorry. But you're no better as far as the sources are concerned. "Any standard reference book on French phonology" is no source. The example on Mid central vowel is sourced by an article published in JIPA, a highly respected linguistic journal. What Lindsey says is merely a variation on what they're saying. If you're insisting on keeping his opinion off this article, fine. Mr KEBAB (talk) 17:16, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh, and the second thing, equally important: Handbook of the IPA doesn't define the rounding of the vowel transcribed, it's just a "mid central vowel", so unless sources specifically state that it is unrounded, you can only speculate whether it is or isn't. Mr KEBAB (talk) 18:19, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Is this really a fringe view? The French phonology article mentions that is somewhat rounded. Then a more accurate transcription for je would be  (i.e., somewhat rounded mid central vowel), just a bit less rounded than . The same article also says that schwa in France is sometimes identical to  or . Rounded front vowels are frequently centralized, so that would make these schwas similar to  or  respectively. So I see Lindsey's assertion as very plausible.


 * Also, Lindsey is also a phoneticist, and he knows what he's talking about because he's teaching speakers of foreign languages (including French, I assume) to pronounce English in a native-like manner. He analyzes the phonologies of other languages and compares them to English in order to help his students. — Eru·tuon 20:52, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

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In Uzbek language
The word "toʻgʻri" in Uzbek is actually pronounced [t̪oʁrɨ], so I have replaced the example with the word "koʻz" (eye) which is pronounced [kɵz]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.230.78.207 (talk) 12:26, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Dutch
Dutch certainly features ɵ prominently, but the wikipedia page on Dutch phonology insists that it is its central neighbour, the schwa. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:CC81:2B25:ECE5:8EA5 (talk) 18:32, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Dutch
Source [4] - van Heuven & Genet (2002) - is no longer available. Source [5] - Verhoeven (2005), p. 245. - has no indication of the presence of /ɵ/ in any variation of Dutch, at least that I found. Further this article seems to have a too small sample size to actually speak of a standard form of Dutch, it seems to actually highlight the significant variance that is frequently found.

Given that I also don't recall having heard this - [ɦɵt] - pronunciation of "hut" I'd like to petition to strike this from the article. The presence of /ɵ/ in Dutch seems likely to me, but only as a regional variant, not as the standard form. Further, I'd like to remove both references, as neither one shows what is claimed in any regard. IDon&#39;tFindAName (talk) 13:03, 27 November 2023 (UTC)