Talk:Cluster (band)

Untitled
This entry isn't giving any justice to Cluster in the slightest. Cluster are not simply a footnote to Kluster!
 * You're absolutely right, though since this is a wiki, feel free to improve the article yourself. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:48, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I agreed with the comment above. With Cluster now reunited and touring, with a new Harmonia release about to hit the market, with new reissues of all the albums either just out or coming in September... I thought it was time to do a proper page, a separate page for Kluster, and album pages for all releases to date that didn't have one already. I'm certainly open to comments and improvements. Caitlynmaire 06:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I've now done significant additions which allowed the article to be rated as "B" class by the WikiPedia Biography Project. I've made further additions since then and have now nominated it for GA class. Caitlynmaire 21:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Photo and Fair Use
The album cover of Soweisoso with a picture of Cluster was deleted by an editor who claimed it was not fair use. I have written Achim Roedelius of Cluster to obtain a new photo or else explicit permission to use the Soweisoso cover. Caitlynmaire 19:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That's true, the album cover would be fair use in the Sowieso article, but not in the Cluster article (unless we do get permission). By the way, nice work on this and the other Cluster articles! -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 19:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

GA
You have no in-line citations in this article. Put some in! :) --andreasegde 19:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have added two for the two quotations in the article. The WikiPedia citation guide states that inline references (as opposed to general references at the bottom of the page) need only be used for quotations or controversial statements.  I doubt anything in this article will be considered controversial by anyone.  I did add one additional inline quote to reference the reverse lyrics in Tzima N'arki, the only fact I could find that isn't verifiable by reading the references listed.  One more thing:  I did alphabetize the general references per the WikiPedia citation guide. Caitlynmaire 23:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Additional information with additional inline references have now been added. Caitlynmaire 18:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * More info added to address concerns below with yet more references. I think Andreasedge's concern has been addressed.  Caitlynmaire 20:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict, so some of this info may have been corrected...)

1. More text about their "musical style" - that section is very short right now; who are their influences?
 * Some necessary additions for GA status I think are:
 * I expanded this section a little. Roedelius lists his influences as "The Universe", which isn't helpful.  However, the added quotation in the 1973-76 section does make clear that both Brian Eno and Michael Rother influenced later Cluster work. Caitlynmaire 19:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

2. Sentences like this: "Cluster always has an avant-garde edge, never resorting to saccharine or conventional sounding music no matter how gentle the piece." are POV and should be changed to a neutral point-of-view.
 * This was replaced with a quotation that essentially says the same thing. The article should now have a neutral point of view. Caitlynmaire 19:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

3. I hope you reconsider adding citations to the article, as they are quite useful for people who need to know where you got that specific piece of information from. Stuff like "The period from 1976 - 1979 is often regarded as Cluster's most productive" and "The association with Eno brought Cluster a much wider audience and international attention" should certainly be cited as these are certainly disputable and there are more throughout the article. Who says this? Critics? (Keep in mind that you are writing not just for people who already know about Krautrock and avant-garde music, so they may see some of these points as contentious and non-obvious). Also see [[WP:AWW|Avoid weasel words]
 * The language is crisper now. I found one place where a weasel word might have been used and I removed it.  The language of the part you quote has been shortened.  It's hard to put in references for this.  Those albums had the best sales figures (need to find a good source to add that to the article) and have many, many positive reviews in much greater quantity than other Cluster albums.  I am looking for an appropriate set of sources that back up that statement to include in the inline references.  Caitlynmaire 19:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

4. Also, isn't Cluster a pretty influential group? There should be a section outlining their legacy/influence on other artists.
 * Added to the intro. Caitlynmaire 19:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

5. The intro is very short and should be expanded.
 * Done. Caitlynmaire 19:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

6. Much of the language is not efficient - there are a lot of "very"s and "much"s, and some hyperbole like "legendary".
 * Changed as suggested. Caitlynmaire 19:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

7. Perhaps combine the last two sections of history, they are both quite short.
 * These sections have been expanded with appropriate references. Caitlynmaire 19:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

8. Include a 30 second clip or two of some of Cluster's music; not necessary for GA, but useful nonetheless
 * Will be done shortly Caitlynmaire 19:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

9. There are a lot of redlinks; for people like Stanislaw Michalik, is it likely there would ever be an article for this individual more than "He played bass for Cluster"? If not, remove these links.
 * I've removed some of the links. Stanislaw Michalik, Okko Bekker, Asmus Tietches, The Brain, Paul Fox, Tommy Grenas, etc... should really have articles and are on my to-do list. Caitlynmaire 19:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

10. Are there any free photos of these guys available (they are touring again afterall)? Maybe you could write to their agency and request a photo to be licensed under a free license? Not necessary for GA, but would be nice. being addressed
 * Added the one photo provided by Hans-Joachim Roedelius. I've been hard pressed to find others without copyright issues but I haven't given up on that. Caitlynmaire 19:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I've noticed much of the work you've done in the Cluster-related articles. Keep up the good work! Wickethewok 18:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed my previous responses and added updated responses inline. All of these issues should now be addressed. Caitlynmaire 19:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

-- Thank you for your kind words. I did expand the articles for the albums Cluster, Live In Vienna, and Cluster & Eno today as well. I also corrected factual errors in the Zuckerzeit article. As you have undoubtedly noticed I am still making improvements and will take many of your suggestions to heart. That, if nothing else, shows the value of the GA process. Caitlynmaire 19:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Addressing #3 - If you could just cite 2 or 3 of the reviews that state this then you don't need to replace it with a quote. I agree that a lot of quotes would be detrimental.  Wickethewok 13:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Disregard my #4 above. I have found suitable references and will be making the suggested addition to the article.  Once again, thanks for your critique Caitlynmaire 14:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Additional paragraph added -- also added four more inline references. I think right now most of your concerns have been addressed but I will continue to look for ways to improve the article. Caitlynmaire 20:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Photos and Audio Samples To Be Added
I have been corresponding with Hans-Joachim Roedelius of Cluster. We should have some photos and audio samples to add soon if all goes well. Caitlynmaire 18:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice! Make sure to ask them to license the photos under a free license.  See Requesting copyright permission for a form letter for licensing a free image.  Wickethewok 18:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have done so, asking that Herr Roedelius either choose Create Commons or GFDL. Caitlynmaire 19:15, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Photo has now been posted. Short music clips to follow. Caitlynmaire 20:45, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

GA Review? What Happened?
This article has been removed from the GA nominations list yet no information on whether it passed or failed is posted anywhere. Generally, when an article fails, the author is given a week to correct any problems. I would have liked that opportunity if anything is still missing for GA status. Caitlynmaire 17:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

Looks like someone already did a review of this and you addressed the comments, but I'll give you a few more:
 * 1) The lead needs to conform to WP:LEAD. Specifically, it should not introduce any information that is not in the body of the article, such as the acts that they have influenced (maybe this can be included under "Musical style?"). Also, the leads needs to touch upon every major point (ie. heading) that is mentioned in the body of the article. So a brief summary of the history is required in this case (less brief than what you have now).
 * 2) The discography should be listed in two columns - see Wade Mainer's discography for the syntax (you don't need to use the headings, I just mean for the column syntax). Same with the "Core Members" vs. "Collaborators" headings (after you move the section, see below). Each heading, in this case, should have its own column.
 * 3) In the lead you reference something using a Wikipedia entry – since you're linking a specific fact within that article, you should use the citation for that fact that the article you're linking to uses. For example, if person X claims to have influenced by Cluster on their Wikipedia page, then use the citation that person X's Wikipedia page uses for that claim.
 * 4) The references need to use citation templates or some other format that includes, at the very least, the author of the source (if available) and the last date of access.
 * 5) Remove the redlinks in the infobox and the "Collaborators" section, or create at least a Stub for all of them. Large amounts of redlinks are frowned upon in the body of the article, and prohibited in infoboxes
 * 6) I suggest renaming the "Overview" section and placing its contents below the "History" section, as it would improve the article flow.
 * 7) Some statements require inline citations, including some that seem ORish without them:
 * "The diversity of styles on the various Cluster albums, with significant changes in musical direction from one release to the next, makes it difficult to categorize Cluster's music. The factors which are present on all 13 albums include the use of electronic instrumentation, loops, and the use of unexpected sounds to create a sense of experimentation." (Musical style)
 * All of "1971-1972 (Early Works)," as right now only the quote is cited.
 * The first and third paragraphs of "1973 - 1976 (Harmonia and Zuckerzeit)"
 * "Roedelius also began releasing solo material during this period, beginning with Durch Die Wüste for Sky in 1978." (1976 - 1979 (Eno and Critical Acclaim))
 * "Cluster's 1979 release Grosses Wasser was produced by ex-Tangerine Dream member Peter Baumann and once again featured a wide variety of styles, including some of the most avant-garde material since the demise of Kluster, particularly during the middle section of the title track, which occupied all of side 2." (1976 - 1979 (Eno and Critical Acclaim))
 * Everything under "1980 - 1981 (Curiosum)" after the first reference. This is also a good example of where a lack of proper in-line citations is detrimental to the neutrality of the article: "Cluster's 1981 release Curiosum lives up to its name, with the seven tracks of offbeat and unusual melodies."
 * All of "1982 - 1989 (Solo Projects and Other Collaborations)"
 * All of "1989 - 1997 (Later Works)," since only one quote is referenced (Another good POV example: "In 1989 Cluster reunited to the delight of their fans")
 * All of 1997 - 2007 (Second Hiatus)
 * 1) All one-two sentence paragraphs need to be expanded or merged with the surrounding paragraphs, they cannot stand alone.

In order to allow for these changes to be made, I am putting the article on hold for a period of seven days, after which it may be failed without further notice. In addition, please note that this is only a preliminary review, and that I may have more concerns for you to address (for example, I will be checking all the references) during my second pass. Please allow yourself adequate time to address possible future concerns (ie. don't wait 6 days to do the above), as the hold will not be extended upon commencement of the secondary review. Thank you for your work thus far. Cheers, CP 04:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * 2. Changed as suggested Caitlynmaire 15:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 3. I've replaced the documents WikiLink with an external citation.  The other two will be done as soon as time permits. Caitlynmaire (talk) 20:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 4. Changes being made gradually as time permits.  Some are already in place. Caitlynmaire 22:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 6. I've received some help here as someone else has recently written articles for Gronland Records and Paul Fox. I simply had to make corrections to to my links.  I will be continuing the process of adding relevant articles as time permits.  I also have removed some red links.  Caitlynmaire 22:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 7. Changes being made gradually as time permits together with item #4,  Some of the citations you asked for are already in place.  Caitlynmaire 22:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Withdrawal of GA Nomination
The changes required by the reviewer are far more than I can devote time to right now. I am therefore withdrawing the nomination and I will be content with a "B" class article for now. I will revisit GA when and if I have the required time.

Comments: Some of the changes requested are simply impossible at this point without a good deal of further research. I am not rejecting the comments -- far from it. There is some good constructive criticism here that will be eventually addressesed. I've already tackled a few of the easier items. I just don't have the time to address it all in the next week.

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