Talk:Clydebank/Archive 1

Airdrie United
have removed the following section from this article

"The "franchised" legal entity of Airdrie United - built upon the rotting corpse of the old Clydebank FC now attract around 1500 fans each week to their council-owned 10,000 all-seater stadium. A number of former Airdrieonians supporters have never returned to support the new Airdrie United - clearly unable to stomach watching a football club that only came into existence through the deliberate destruction of another."

As a long-time resident of Clydebank, and a Clydebank supporter, the above made me cringe, not only in the context of an Encyclopaedic article. Put more simply, it is "clearly" not NPOV. This is a page about the town of Clydebank, not about someone's feelings on Airdrie United FC. There is a separate page on Clydebank FC. I have left the NPOV comments about Clydebank FC in the article, as the football team is an important part of the town's history, and especially its identity as distinct from Glasgow. I have however removed the comment about the team having the "backing of their town". In my experience the lack of the backing of the town over the 20 years or so I watched the team was one of the main reasons for its lack of success, with most success achieved in spite of the support of most of the town. The part about Yoker's "small but committed" support I have left in, despite it sounding as if it was written by a patronising Clydebank FC fan. Johnnywoo 13:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm a bit puzzled by the mention of Tom Murphy - who on earth is he to merit a mention in the article on Clydebank? I've never heard of him, it looks a little like a well intentioned attempt to give a late relative a bit of a name-check. Can I mention my Grandad too :) Surely this needs a bit of cleanup to remove it? (subsequently signed by me now I have an account Beardybloke (talk) 12:25, 17 May 2008 (UTC) )

I've removed it, be bold, you can edit too. Fraslet 17:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I would normally (I removed the spurious mention of the non-existant 50,000 seater stadium in Hardgate) but I wanted to be sure that this guy wasnt more some sort of major local hero that I'd just never heard of since I moved out of Clydebank a few years ago.... Must sign up for an account to keep track of my updates :) (and again now signed by me Beardybloke (talk) 12:25, 17 May 2008 (UTC) )

Need to put some quotes or evidence in for example "Although the town currently has a high unemployment rate, this was not always the case." Where says it has a high unemployment rate? You need to back up.

User at IP address 86.1.207.2 on 14 May made numerous edits which tidied up the page, but others simply removed lots of relevant and pertinent information? Also seems to have editted it from a POV thats definitely pro-Glasgow, removing references to Dunbartonshire, the Dumbarton/Duntocher dialling code, and all sorts of other information. Probably well meaning, but without the general tidy up I'd have thought it was large scale vandalism. Clyedbank simply does not consist of the square mile welded onto the north west end of Glasgow. Beardybloke (talk) 10:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Dialect
I'd personally have to say that the whole section on dialect is pure and utter tosh and definitely not NPOV. Seems to be written by someone with a grudge or political axe to grind against Dumbarton. (There was some disquiet about the creation of the West Dunbartonshire council and the change in Westminster boundaries) I lived in the area for 20+ years and to say that the Dumbarton folk speak a noticeably different dialect from Clydebank folk is a ridiculous sweeping generalisation. Parts of Clydebank are no more than a mile from parts of Dumbarton (eg Bowling to Milton is about 600 metres - and on into Dumbarton itself is about another 4 or 500 metres). Its frankly tosh - but I'll wait to see if anyone disagrees here before I remove it in a few weeks. Beardybloke (talk) 18:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree &mdash; it's utter rubbish. Go ahead! Jellyman (talk) 23:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Dialect
I can clearly recall my surprise, on visiting my future wife's family in Renton (in the late 1960s), that there were a number of small differences in accent and emphasis common in that area compared with the speech of Clydebank residents. When I went to Glasgow University and encountered, for the first time, people from Falkirk and thereabouts, it was clear to me that there was a progressive change of accent across Central Scotland from west to east. It is therefore not surprising to me that differences between Clydebank and Dumbarton speech should have been noticed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tbankie (talk • contribs) 12:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Population
Can anyone please confirm Clydebank's population because the 55,000 figure seems very inflated. a Quick check on SCROL (the 2001 official census) the population sits at 29,858. Even if you add the populations of Hardgate, Duntocher and Faifley, the population reaches 42,091. Can anyone provide a source for the current figure? Tad str (talk) 09:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe its a typo - I can only get to approx 45,000 by including Old Kilpatrick and the areas you mention. This link Shows the areas of West Dunbartonshire and the four areas that belonged to Clydebank District Council (and as a result probably consider themselves still Clydebank are: Clydebank, Duntocher & Hardgate, Faifley and finally Old Kilpatrick.  beardybloke (talk) 02:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Someone has now added simply the figure for Clydebank from the SCROL website. Which then begs the question. What is the focus for this article? Is it the whole of Clydebank or simply the portion at the centre that was the original Clydebank? We have the infobox listing information for the smaller areas which were the original Clydebank burgh, other parts of the article referring to Clydebank district and no real uniformity of usage. The article has become a real hotchpotch with no real uniformity of definition now as a result. beardybloke (talk) 20:20, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Surely the correct figure should be the SCROL one rather than one someone has made up? Out of interest, just because a settlement fell under Clydebank district by no way means that it then became a part of Clydebank. Having said that I've always struggled to get to grips with the status of Dalmuir, Faifley and Duntocher - are they seperate towns/villages from Clydebank? I've never considered Old Kilpatrick for example to be an area of Clydebank (or for that matter Milton to be part of Dumbarton).92.235.49.41 (talk) 21:53, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

The correct figure should probably be the SCROL one if the article is simply about the rump Clydebank that was the original area. However the article meanders around the entire former District Council area - it even mentions the other areas explicitly. This encompassed everything from Bowling, Old Kilpatrick, Duntocher, Hardgate, Faifley, Dalmuir, etc etc. - if the article claims them as part of "Clydebank" my feeling is that the population figure should be the sum of the relevant SCROL figures. A number of the outlying areas did retain a small sense of being distinct but "most" refer to themselves as Bankies (We still call Duntocher "The village" locally). beardybloke (talk) 02:31, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

As the article is clearly about the entire town and not just the smaller locality of the same name, which appears to exist purely for statistical purposes, it seems sensible to at least include the figure for the entire town in addition to that of the locality. Hope no-one minds but I tried to tidy up the article a bit by including the sum of the populations of the four localities from the SCROL website, which gave the populations as "Clydebank" 29,858; "Duntocher & Hardgate" 7,301; "Faifley" 4,932; and "Old Kilpatrick" 3,119. At the same time I tried to clarify the relationship between Clydebank and the wider areas it falls under for different purposes: Namely, that the town is part of the West Dunbartonshire local authority, the historical county & lieutenancy area of Dunbartonshire, and the UK’s fifth largest urban area that goes by different names for various purposes, but is often referred to as Greater Glasgow (and is included in wiki as such). I felt the Clydebank article could do with making clear the fact that the town is an entirely separate entity from the City of Glasgow, but neither should it fail to reference the relationship between Clydebank and the many near-by urban areas that are officially recognised as constituting a single metropolitan settlement area, by whichever name. Basically, it was a less than perfect attempt to keep opinion, identity and politics out of the article and make sure that Clydebank’s status is described in as accurate and least-confusing a way as possible. (MM - 05:22, 31 December 2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markmcgeever (talk • contribs)

Temporary: text/info to be re-instated in article as it is restructured and expanded
Thomson's Ship Builders (1871) and Beardmores (1860 Clyde Navigation Trust) where among the first shipyards in the town. These yards eventually became some of the most important ship building yards in the 20th century in the region in and around Glasgow. John Brown & Company – shipbuilders for the Cunard Line – being a fine example. Additionally, the American Singer Corporation opened a factory between 1884 and 1885, which had the honour of housing the largest clock face in the world. The Singer factory was, at one point, the largest in the world and was the site of an important strike in March-April 1911, during which its 11,000 workers stopped working. In 1941 a large part of the town was destroyed in the Clydebank Blitz, as well as close by Maryhill in Glasgow. The town has a large shopping centre which is divided in two by the Forth and Clyde Canal which runs through the town. The town is also a place of learning, culture and nightlife. The popular Scottish band Wet Wet Wet formed in Clydebank in 1982.

-- DMS (talk) 01:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Wartime Clydebank
From the Clyde Waterfront Heritage site:

"Because of the crucial wartime role of its shipbuilders, Clydebank suffered more in the Blitz than any other town in Scotland. It was heavily bombed on 13-14 March 1941. Relatively little harm was done to the intended targets. However, the town and the Singer sewing machine factory with its famous clock tower, were badly damaged with over 500 killed and over 1,000 injured. Singer’s was in its day the largest sewing-machine factory in the world."

   ←   ZScarpia  12:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Blitz
Considering the town was nearly destroyed in the Blitz, why isn't this mentioned anywhere in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.254.200 (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You are absolutely right. This needs to be covered. I will try to add something to this article soon and also start another article on Clidebank bombing 1941. - Ipigott (talk) 21:05, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This is wikipedia - if you think the article needs something - go ahead and add it. Providing its properly referenced and notable no-one will argue about is inclusion. beardybloke (talk) 21:10, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. And a more detailed article will follow. Why not join in? - Ipigott (talk) 21:37, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I do - you'll find my edits and tweaks all over this article. I was encouraging the anon IP beardybloke (talk) 22:51, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

What constitutes Clydebank?
So what should be classified as part of Clydebank? The discussion above leaned towards including Duntocher, Faifley and Hardgate, but as that was back in 2008 I think its worth revisiting. My feeling is that including these areas relies on out of date definitions. Essentially, Clydebank as a town has lacked administrative status since burghs were abolished in 1975, so what was included in the burgh is no longer an indicator. The Clydebank District which existed from then until 1997 did, of course include these areas (as well as more outlying places like Old Kilpatrick and Bowling), but I interpret this as a local government area named after a town within it, rather than any indicator of the boundary of the town itself. Similarly, Renfrew District at the time included Paisley and Barrhead, but you wouldn't say they were part of the town of Renfrew. So I don't think the district boundaries help much, and of course the district is now subsumed into the West Dunbartonshire council area. As far as council wards go, by the way, the outlying areas are in Kilpatrick ward rather than either of the Clydebank ones.

So if administrative boundaries don't definitively tell us what is part of Clydebank, that leaves us with finding other official definitions. The only one I can come up with is the Census. List of census localities in Scotland shows us that these different settlements are counted separately by officialdom (I know that list is currently unsourced, but it can be verified by searching here). This article currently tries to hedge its bets, listing both "core" and "greater" Clydebank population figures in the infobox, but to me, including areas that officaldom don't consider part of the settlement verge towards OR / PoV territory.

Of course, we must reflect the fact that these areas are often casually / geographically considered to form part of Clydebank (although sources to say so would be nice), but I think we should be clearer about official status. Any thoughts? Jellyman (talk) 13:06, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
 * My only semi-official guidance is the former police boundaries Jellyman (talk) 09:34, 13 September 2017 (UTC) for 'LC' division which were possibly based on the Clydebank district boundaries mentioned above. The outlying districts were all included apart from, I think, Bowling which was in the Dumbarton division. They have all been the same under WDC division for a good few years now. I think Old Kilpatrick possibly has the best claim for a separate identity due to being across the bridge from the rest and having a different postcode, but folk I worked with lived there and went to school in Clydebank so that is probably a more realistic indicator of where people feel they 'belong'. As far as I know Faifley is merely an overspill estate so can't claim much independent history, but Hardgate and Duntocher are much older. My perception as an outsider is that folk from these areas would probably describe themselves as natives of Duntocher/Hardgate/Faifley to those from elsewhere in Clydebank or nearby, but for convenience would just say they're from Clydebank to those from further afield. Maybe locals will feel very differently! Crowsus (talk) 17:58, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the input, that tends to concur with my impression – whether they're classed as part of Clydebank or not tends to depend on who you ask, hence our articles have ended up being horribly contradictory due to the input of different editors. From the Clydebank artice: "The town exists in the local zeitgeist..." (umm, pardon?) "....as comprising the above listed areas, however the former Clydebank District also included the settlement of Bowling, while for statistical purposes the town is divided into several localities; namely Faifley, Duntocher & Hardgate, Old Kilpatrick, and a rump Clydebank." From the Duntocher article: "Although it is a far older settlement and still considered a village in its own right, it is administratively part of nearby Clydebank along with the neighbouring village of Hardgate and is now part of the West Dunbartonshire local authority area." Somewhat confused and incorrect. Jellyman (talk) 18:04, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

I have now tried to rework the geography section of the article, as well as adding governance and demography sections, in a way that will hopefully start to clarify these inconsistencies. I have also adjusted the population figure in the infobox to only give the figure what what is officially regarded as the Clydebank locality. Jellyman (talk) 09:36, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Appreciate all the input that has been made by the regular users above. You obviously take a great deal of care and pride in Clydebank. — Preceding unsigned comment added by D.Stewart (talk • contribs) 21:51, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Linnvale
I propose that Linnvale be merged into Clydebank. The Linnvale article is an unreferenced stub about a fairly obscure housing estate, it can be more usefully discussed in the article on the town it is part of. Jellyman (talk) 16:49, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * As there has been no response, I will go ahead and merge. Jellyman (talk) 14:09, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
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Proposed merge with Whitecrook
I propose that Whitecrook be merged with Clydebank. The article is short and unsourced, and as small suburb, the area can be described briefly in the town's article. Jellyman (talk) 15:18, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I support this. I just don't think there is likely to be enough content on the suburb to warrant it as a separate article. CallyMc (talk) 18:39, 16 June 2018 (UTC)