Talk:Co-partnership housing movement

First modern co-op
There was a claim here that Rochdale Pioneers was the first modern co-op. An editor tells me that is referenced to Birchall's book. However 'modern' is an opinion (Birchall's opinion) and doesn't belong in a neutral encyclopedia. Book's like Holyoake's history explains Rochdale's pivotal role, which I do not dispute, but it was not the first. Heart of England Co-operative Society and Lothian, Borders & Angus Co-operative Society were founded in the decade preceding the Pioneers.

I reworded the paragraph to emphasize the Pioneers' pivotal role in defining modern co-ops, while removing the error of calling it the first.

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 13:00, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Okeedokes. Not really impressed with your source though old chap - an internet page? But I feel sure you have better up your sleeve, yup? hjuk (talk) 17:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * My source isn't great, but nevertheless we can't use Prof Birchall's opinion unless we cite it as his opinion (in the text not a footnote). However it is somewhat tangential to the topic of this article, and I don't doubt that Birchall is right to describe the housing objectives of the Pioneers, so the simpler that sentence is the better.
 * Holyoake's history is well regarded, but he has a conflict of interest, as he claims to have given a lecture to the Pioneer founders that inspired their principles, so I didn't cite it. My library doesn't run to the other leading books, such as Birchall's own history, I am afraid.
 * --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Out of interest, when should a source get described as an opinion and when can it be used to support an unqualified 'fact'? I have a pdf of et Birchall article if you can give me a way of getting it to you.
 * hjuk (talk) 11:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The 'e-mail this user' link on my user page might work, if you can copy and past the text, and if it is legal to send me the file. (See 'Toolbox' in the sidebar.)
 * It is not the source that I see as opinion, but the statement. There is some discussion about this at WP:V, if I recall correctly.  The phrase under discussion runs into difficulties with me because (a) there is no agreed upon definition of 'first modern co-op' (b) Rochdale Pioneers doesn't meet my own definition (and we can't write an encyclopedia with my own definitions, nor indeed Prof Birchall's
 * --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 15:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)