Talk:Cockfight/Archive 1

Removed Special Mushka cocks in Jhelum (Pakistan)
Lack of citation. Definitely written in English by someone who cannot speak English. If someone wants to add it back on please fix all the grammar mistakes and get some sources. I'm too lazy to do it. Deleting is far more easier for me thank you very much.

"Cockfights are common in Pakistan, but there are different variety of cocks that vary.. ONLY that who can understand can tell what kindof cock this image show. These are mushka cocks that are built very strong and do only a game of not more then five minutes.. This cast is very rare BUt in jhelum there is still someone keeping them and working on it to make it more pure .." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.95.178.101 (talk) 09:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Venezuela under "Legal"
I removed the part about Venezuela because all it said was that is common in a certain area. That does not belong under Legal issues. Tamer (talk) 03:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Cockfighting continues to thrive in the US?
Not only is this not verifiable, but it's also false, so I deleted it.

It may not thrive legally, but nonetheless it does thrive. --12.154.39.254 20:30, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Founding Fathers?
I find it hard to believe that the founding fathers participated in cock fighting. Also, Lincoln wasn't a founding father, so I'm going to delete it. -Simply because you find it hard to believe does not mean that it is not a fact. Please try to independtently prove or disprove the statement before having it removed. Personally I would like to see some research on the subject. Thanks.
 * Why is it hard to believe? Cockfighting was a long standing tradition in the UK and in fact 10 Downing Street was built around a cockfighting ring.  Why should things be different in the colonies?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.79.161.1 (talk) 12:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Clarification
Are the roosters killed during a cockfight? This is just a general question and not about the argument of animal cruelty.

Gameness can defined as putting the will to concour over the will to survive. This can not be bred into any living thing. It is there from birth, or not. Gamefowl generally have this trait. Those that do not are not used for breeding. The objective of pitting Gamefowl is to determine which fowl show this trait. It is not required that either bird die for a trained eye to see this trait. It is not desireable for either bird to die. If any bird indicates a desire to retreat, in any way, the pitting is imediatly stopped and a winner declared. (In fact, birds that do not show the desire for battle, imediatly prior to a pitting, will not be allowed to and can not be forced to meet his apponent in the pit.) Due to the great athletitism, gained by breeding good traits into a line of Gamecocks, the first pitting sometimes results in the death of an opponent. (This could be argued as Darwinism sped up.) The best fowl are then bred to strehgthen bloodlines. The use of different weapons determine different qualities in certain bloodlines. The weapons actually tend to shorten what is usually a much longer and more brutal battle in the wild. Being game means that a strugle for dominance in the wild can go for days with both birds refusing to retreat and doing great damage to one another.

Incorrect statement about legality of cockfighting
I added the statement that Cockfighting is currently legal in Louisiana, because the article incorrectly said that New Mexico was the only state where it was legal. Under Louisiana law, cocks are not considered "animals", and cockfigting is a big industry in parts of Louisiana. Feed salesmen and local cock pit owners are trying to prevent it from being outlawed. Try a GOOGLE News search.

I added a new article to the reference section. As of 3/20/2007, Louisiana may again attempt to ban cockfighting now that New Mexico has banned it.

I added yet another article, as of today 6/27/07, the Louisiana Legislature voted to ban cockfighting, and the governor is expected to sign the legislation.

Desensitized to the suffering of others?
I don't see how watching a cock fight will desensitize you to the suffering of others. Perhaps the sentence really should read Children are often present at cockfights, leading to concern that they are being desensitized to the suffering of chickens and they are being encouraged to use violence against chickens. Alternatively maybe it should just be pulled out after all? Triddle 00:34, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC

Unacknowledged source
The following sentence:

"Roosters will fight over food, territory, or mates, but the fights exist generally only to establish dominance within a group (the pecking order) and rarely result in serious injury",

seems to be paraphrased directly from the HSUS factsheet. Unless this can be backed up by an independent source, it should be acknowleded as an opinion only, to avoid any accusation of bias in the article. E.g. a disclaimer in this section, "This info taken from HSUS factsheet..." may be sufficient.

Also IMHO, text such as this derived from copyrighted sources should be more explicitly acknowledged.

--203.45.114.193 12:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed
I'll clarify if somebody hasn't already done so. Devotchka 17:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Potential merge
I've just noticed that there is a section on cockfighting in the Chicken article. I'm not sure it really wants a merge, but someone might want to check over both articles for consistency. -- Solipsist 14:43, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Cheap
I've just gone through and removed all references to genitalia and sex from the article. Hilarious. Dewrad 22:57, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Keep an Eye Out
...for 68.105.147.60, who went through and deleted about 60% of the original article, removing photos, animal cruelty stuff, and information about the gambling and gang violence associated with cockfighting. Just went through and reverted to previous edit by Mushroom. Devotchka 00:01, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Ccheng's additon
I removed the following addition to the article twice now. It was contributed by User:Ccheng, who has made no other edits. I'm not sure if this can be salvaged, but to me it looks like a strange essay, not an encyclopedia entry. I'm not sure the masturbation parts are anything but OR/speculation. Vslashg (talk) 08:21, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Torneo De Gallos. The English Translation is Cock Fighting, and it is a centuries-old blood sport in which two or more specially bred birds, known as gamecocks, are placed in an enclosed area to fight, for the primary purposes of gambling and entertainment. A cockfight usually results in the death of one of the birds; sometimes it ends in the death of both. A typical cockfight can last anywhere from several minutes to more than half an hour. This sort of animal cruelty is what makes this bizarre sport illegal in many Northern American States. Recently many states have increased the seriousness of a cockfighting charge from a misdemeanor to a felony. However, the cockfighting community has made arguments to these beliefs. One common statement is that the sport is less crueler than say the sport of boxing, in which both participants can get seriously injured or even killed. In other countries like England, Cockfighting is compared to foxhunting which is legal. The comparison is with cockfighting, the gamecock has a 50-50 percent chance of winning, however with foxhunting, the fox gets nothing. Another argument is that Game cocks are raised primarily to be put in the ring and eaten if they lost. What about countries like America? we have hundreds, if not thousands of farms that raise chickens in extremely harsh conditions and send them off the places like KFC to be turned into someone’s dinner. Is this more cruel than two birds fighting for sport?


 * Not to ignore the obvious obscene puns, but the men in countries that still practice this sport, the deep psychological identification of men with their cocks is unmistakable. the word for cock is used metaphorically to mean "hero," "warrior," "champion”. The English word “Cock” technically means rooster. But in today’s society, can have a double meaning. The cock is, a representation of the male genitals. Reasons for this comparison come from the way handlers often hold their game. Hours are spent sitting and playing with their cocks, which can be perceived to some as a form of symbolic masturbation. American slang for male masturbation is often called “choking the chicken”. Once the symbolisms are seen, the rules of cockfighting are more easily understood. For example, Handlers can only touch his own bird and not the opponent bird. When the match is about to take place, the cock is taken out and shown to everyone present so it can be admired. Symbolism for this sport and male sexuality can be also seen when the gamecock is unconscious and the handlers take their heads into their mouths and try to resuscitate it. But doing so can be construed as a form of fellatio. When handlers lose a fight, and their cock is defeated and taken away to be eaten, he has been castrated and when a man is castrated, he no longer feels like a man with all his confidence in the world. Cockfighting can be another form of sexual activity. When the match between two cocks are over, their handlers, tired and sweaty from yelling and encouraging their cocks to win, often times leave emotionally and physically spent, this form of release may not is sexual, but the emotional release is similar. If the cock loses, then the man leaves feeling distraught that he didn’t “perform” correctly. On the other hand, if the cock wins. The man walks away with his head held high, knowing his cock is the better “performer” and can outlast his opponent, and what man wouldn’t want that? If Americans didn’t have a double meaning for the word cock, would the symbolism between men and their genitals still be seen? Or would cockfighting simply be seen as two birds fighting in a ring?

More on mechanics?
Not to downplay the importance of the legal and moral controversy surrounding cockfighting, but the article should explain a little more about what actually happens in a cockfight.

Reading this article, I still have no idea what determines which bird "wins". Are cockfights generally to the death? Or until a bird "surrenders" or flees? Or are they judged somehow?

—Steven G. Johnson 01:36, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey Steven: I'm reading the novel Cockfighter by Charles Willeford right now and hope to have a better understanding of the "sport" by the end -- I'll try to add some more to this article...   --nathanbeach   18:15, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Gameness can defined as putting the will to concour over the will to survive. This can not be bred into any living thing. It is there from birth, or not. Gamefowl generally have this trait. Those that do not are not used for breeding. The objective of pitting Gamefowl is to determine which fowl show this trait. It is not required that either bird die for a trained eye to see this trait. It is not desireable for either bird to die. If any bird indicates a desire to retreat, in any way, the pitting is imediatly stopped and a winner declared. (In fact, birds that do not show the desire for battle, imediatly prior to a pitting, will not be allowed to and can not be forced to meet his apponent in the pit.) Due to the great athletitism, gained by breeding good traits into a line of Gamecocks, the first pitting sometimes results in the death of an opponent. (This could be argued as Darwinism sped up.) The best fowl are then bred to strehgthen bloodlines. The use of different weapons determine different qualities in certain bloodlines. The weapons actually tend to shorten what is usually a much longer and more brutal battle in the wild. Being game means that a strugle for dominance in the wild can go for days with both birds refusing to retreat and doing great damage to one another.


 * That paragraph is excellent, but it's unsigned (the individual who wrote it doesn't have an account). I will move it to the article unless anyone has objections...   --nathanbeach   17:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Article clean up
Hello -- I went through and cleaned up this article. Work still needs to be done on fact citations using the "references" section. I removed following two sentences because I didn't think they had any relevance to the article as a whole:
 * Cocks found in a cockpit or on premises where a cockpit is located are subject to seizure and destruction.
 * In Canada, the champion of Cock Fighter is El Cocko, owned by one Johnny Dodd. He trained this cock since he came to Canada from Mexico 10 years ago.

Also, I don't think the second paragraph of the "Animal cruelty issues" section makes any sense, but I didn't want to remove it totally in case it made sense to someone else. Can someone else clean that up? Thanks... --nathanbeach  18:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Re "cleanup", I have removed the "citation needed" for where the article talks about the Thais putting spurs on the gamecocks' legs, because I think the photograph showing that very thing is proof enough of its truth. However, we need clarification over whether or not it is rumoured that the spurs are dipped in poison.  Now that somebody put the "fact" up there it is a rumour- but it doesn't necessarily make it encyclopaedic material.  CO.

Wilford Brimley
Someone mentioned that Wilford Brimley was arrested at a large cockfight roundup by authorities. Google News doesn't confirm that, so it seems to me that somebody just thought that it would be humorous. Brimley is in favor of the legality of cockfighting, he said in at least one interview that he goes to New Mexico and to Louisiana to see legal cockfights. I kind of doubt that he would go to illegal ones, but even if he has, he's never been arrested for it.
 * I agree -- I could find nothing of note via Google for "Wilfred Brimley Arrest". I removed the reference from the article.   --nathanbeach   16:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Rocky Top Graphicx
Folks: please take a look at the "Major Arrest" section. Someone keeps trying to include an advert for a t-shirt made to commemorate the event. I really don't think it should be there (it's little more than an advertisement), but don't want to make the call and invoke an edit war. I cleaned it up again, but feedback is appreciated... --nathanbeach  18:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Quite right. The whole incident is really of minor relevance on a global scale and the t-shirt link is almost certainly spam linking. I'll remove it and tone down the section, which is probably still useful as a case study. -- Solipsist 18:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Also the CNN link there appears to be dead now. -- Solipsist 18:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The vandalism on this article is so weird. I don't understand the person who keeps throwing "Johnny Dodd" in the middle of sentences.  I can't find any info on the net about this "Johnny Dodd" character.   --nathanbeach   19:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Nathan Beach please add the portion about the mechanics of cockfighting in the article I think it is excellant, and personally, which as a cockfighter i may be a little biased, but it is my belief that the article does not stress what actually happens at organized cockfights, which is a highly organized sport, cockfighting is given an extremely bad reputation, no matter what you think of the moral issue involved anyone who has ever been to one will note that though there are a lot of problems with illegal activities at cockfights, these activities, such as drug trafficking, usually do not take place at large organized cockfights, where those mostly in attendence are middle class individuals and old men,these activietes take place at small underground places, such as someone's backyard or garage.

dudeman1st's edit
Cocks are not chickens. Removed chicken. Cleaned up grammar and clarified. Changed redundancies. Trying to find refs, will add if located. Removed "For the most part, the U.S. Federal Government frowns on the sport not due to the animal rights issues, but due to its inability to monitor and collect income taxes on the gambling," because I couldn't find a ref, it seems POV, and how can anyone know the opinion of the entire federal government? Changed "...in the media" header to "...in Popular Culture." as it seems more appropriate. Added to legal section plus ref. Does the "culture" comment belong here? I changed it to sound more legal-ish.Dudeman1st 03:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Newport TN??
What in the world does this have to do with defining cockfighting? There are many arrests every year, I think it should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:66.238.83.34 (talk • contribs)
 * If you can show that 144 people are arrested at the same time on a regular basis, then that information should certainly be included. In the meantime, this is an encylopaedia, which means it can cover wider areas of the subject than a dictonary! MikeHobday 19:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

We should add this content
article will try to do this tomorrow (away from home right now)  --nathanbeach   02:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I suggest adding the following in the "Popular Culture" section (in place of the single reference to the Univ. of SC)

The University of South Carolina, Jacksonville State University in Alabama, Sumter High School (Sumter, South Carolina) and Screven High School (Sylvania, Georgia) use a a game cock as a mascot. A fighting cock is also the symbol for the UKs Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Also, the male sport teams of the University of Puerto Rico at Rio Piedras are named "Gallitos" ("Little Roosters") after gamecocks.

This is taken almost verbatim from the wikipedia page on "Gamecocks" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.244.229.31 (talk) 04:01, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Animal Fighting Prohibition Enforcement Act
Just to let ya'll know, the Animal Fighting Prohibition Enforcement Act, a federal bill, was signed into law by Bush today. It's definately noteworthy for inclusion in the U.S. section... --Shadowlink1014 00:46, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Commercial link?
The first external link for video and photos is to "livecockfights.com", a commercial website whose only freely available video is disjointed sample clips. Is this appropriate? My first impression would be that this link was placed by an interested party with that site. -- JeffreyRMiles 15:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Merger proposal

 * Support merge from Cockpit (gambling). This subject is not so widespread that a multiplicity of articles would assist understanding. Cockpit (gambling) was only created as a spin off from the aviation cockpits = see . —Preceding unsigned comment added by MikeHobday (talk • contribs) 17:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Support merge. Both article cover the same topic and are still start class. --Knulclunk (talk) 18:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * With no objections, this is a consensus. Closed as merge. MikeHobday (talk) 19:51, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

New sections needed
This article could certainly do with sections covering history and "what happens in a cockfight." There is some historical information at, with pretty much identical versions on lots of other sites. I wonder how much of this is verifiable? MikeHobday (talk) 17:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

New addition in trivia section?
Since the article is still short, and there's no posted flag discouraging trivia sections, is it OK if I add a link to the Tom Russell song 'El Gallo del Cielo,' which is entirely about cockfighting, in the In Popular Culture section? Otherpower (talk) 16:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Even though there is no trivia notice, the policy applies. For want of any better criterion, I have amended the article to just include artistic works where cockfighting seems significant as opposed to trivial. Does that help you decide? MikeHobday (talk) 21:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It sure does, I'll go ahead with it. The entire song revolves around cockfighting, and it uses many terms that are listed here. Otherpower (talk) 15:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

controversy
There seems to be a lack of discussion of controversy of morality in regards to the sport. In fact, this article reads almost like a defense or promotion of the sport as an important cultural artifact in most cultures and something to be admired. I'm all for it being balanced, but right now it's not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.90.155.55 (talk) 02:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Such controversy is hard to describe in a balanced way, and a state of balance is hard to verify. And BTW, such balance would be a matter of balancing coverage of the critics against coverage of those who say there is no moral problem, or moral benefit. Don't expect coverage of either side of the controversy to be at all comparable with the facts about the practice. --Jerzy•t 06:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

"Pit" wording
I'm reverting the conversion, in Cockfight of
 * Owners pit fighting birds against each other for the purpose of gambling.

into
 * Owners pit fight birds against each other for the purpose of gambling.

I don't think the syntax of either of them is great, but the newer one is worse, and is probably based on misunderstanding the meaning of "pit" in that context. To be honest, i'd never stopped to wonder why "pit" is both a noun and a transitive verb, and the verb's definition is probably revealing of its origin:
 * to set (as gamecocks) into or as if into a pit to fight

I've added emphasis, drawing attention to the metaphorical sense, which IMO is much more widely understood than the literal or the origin. In any case, it may be worth trying to avoid the figurative use in an article that mentions "cockpit"; give it some thot. --Jerzy•t 06:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Bias
Does anyone else see this entry as somewhat biased (pro-cockfighting)? --Jsarratt•talk 22:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the real problem is that it lacks citations for cockfighting in the non Western world. MikeHobday (talk) 06:12, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Bangladesh section
I removed the following passage on cockfighting in Bangladesh, cause it looks like an attempt to start a discussion (and has no refs anyway). 86.141.236.169 (talk) 19:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

it is very popular game in bangladesh. brahmanbaria, dhaka and sylhet are the most popular region for cock fighting. there championship and national challange are played every year in winter season. more than 200 year ago in Sorail near to Brahmanbaria achil roster are avail able. this achil are short in size and very accurate in their game and they know how to achieve win from opposite party. but this achil are not avail able. cause indian and pakistani breed roster are very tall and big size. every one now like that big size fighter. in bangladesh two type of fight is avail avle 1. kats kusti 2. bandha kusti. kata kusti are very popular in sylhet. bandha kusti are popular in Brahmanbaria nand dhaka. every year each region fight with other region. now roster are imported from india specially androprodesh and bishakhapottom. abed and javed two most popular brother of sylhet, Kajol from Dhaka and Late Romalo was main importer of roster from india. now in there one doctor named DR. ezaz ahmed shihab who want to establish a magagine. there he cover the history, feature and fight schedule and some memorable picture.

New file File:Cock-fighting match by John Kay.jpg
Recently the file File:Cock-fighting match by John Kay.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 23:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Bali
Deep Play: Notes on the Balinese Cockfight is a great article on Balinese cockfights and the social structures around them in the late '50s. TRS-80 (talk) 18:19, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Contradicting information
In Regional variations is states: "In the naked heel variation, the bird's natural spurs are left intact and sharpened: fighting is done without gaffs or taping, particularly in India (especially in Tamil Nadu)"

Then in In Southern India it states: Cockfighting (Vetrukkaal seval porr in Tamil which means "naked heel cock fight") (Kodi Pandem in Telugu) (Kori katta in Tulu) is a favourite sport of people living in the coastal region of Andhra Pradesh, Dakshina Kannada and Udupi districts of Tulu Nadu region of Karnataka,and the state of Tamil nadu India. Three or four inch blades (Bal in Tulu) are attached to the cocks' legs.

So why are blades attached if it's naked heel? I think a sentence was removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.145.251.34 (talk) 19:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Survival
I saw some cock fighting in the Phillipines and was wondering if the winning cock ever fights again, they all looked pretty cut up after their wins or are they turned into yakitori as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.185.149.123 (talk) 23:52, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

First Citation
The first citation (going to a newspaper based in Charleston) speaks of illegality in the U.S. but apparently does not mention the word Europe in the body of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.189.228.212 (talk) 15:34, 8 July 2010 (UTC)