Talk:Cocktail/Archive 1

Mandarin etymology
"The Mandarin name for cocktail is Jee Wooui Geuui. Jee means rooster/chicken/cock Wooui means tail and Geuui means liquor." I greatly doubt it, and I would also like to know what "transcription" this might be. Could some Mandarin-speaker prove or disprove this (and make the according corrections)? --Oop 14:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

About the possible mandarin origin
I've learned chinese for 1 year so the best I could do was to correct the transliteration and add the ideographs. But as to the hypothesis itself, I consider it far-fetched given the fact that as far as I know some words in Mandarin are either very self-descriptive or a result a a direct translation from other languages, especially English, e.g. airplane - 飞机, feiji - literally "flying machine"; microwave oven - 微波炉, weibolu - literally 微 - tiny or micro, 波 - wave and 炉 - oven. Not really great examples, I know, but you get the point. I hope someone can clear this out, but in the meantime it's at least written correctly anyway. -- 18:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC-3) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.51.204.239 (talk) 16:59, 12 May 2006

Partisan reference
There are lots of references to the effects of alcohol. Is there a particular reason for choosing one that mentions Democrats? bobblewik 11:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * This quote is significant because it is the first written definition of the word "cocktail" and in any case Democratic here does not refer to the modern Democratic Party but to the Democratic-Republican Party whose ideological successors are more accurately the modern Republican Party. --ThirtyOneKnots 14:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Between the Sheets
Why does "Between the Sheets" redirect there? Purple Rose 11:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC) - How about make a page about between the sheets? example - Between the sheets (song) Between the sheets (cocktail)


 * How about instead having "Between the Sheets" just point at the "song? We don't have "Manhattan" redirect here.  Nor "cosmopolitan," nor "mudslide."  "Between the sheets" is not mentioned on this page other than in the redirect notice, so there is little chance that anyone who is searching for information on this obscure cocktail will find any useful information on the page.  Barring some logic posted here, I am going to change this redirect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juneappal (talk • contribs) 19:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Rohypnol

 * "However, alcohol is not essential, the turn of the century has given rise to other sorts of cocktails, e.g. rohypnol and coke, the so called 'saturday night special'."

Surely this is both confusing and innacurate especially in its current position within the article. Is there any evidence of this type of "cocktail" gaining popularity this century? Surely there is nowhere where one can order this from a cocktail bar and therefore more explaination of what this reference means is required. This should either be expanded on in a section about drug cocktails or removed entirely to an article on spiked drinks and/or "date rape" drugs. This can't possibly remain as it does so I am removing it until someone either rewrites with a proper explaination or provides the proper citation. --JamesTheNumberless 15:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for removing that. I am not even sure what rohypnol is, but it certainly does not fit the definition of cocktails as I have come to know it. Further, it contradicts many other sources we have listed throughout this section of the Wikipedia. --Willscrlt 23:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a drug commonly associated with date-rape, I think it was originally designed as a sleeping aid. Incidentally I also removed the reference to virgin cocktails as it was poorly written and the explaination of the name, as a reference to alcohol consumption being a sin (presumably a reference to Islam) since there is no direct connection. Perhaps a better word would be "innocense" as a cocktail could be said to be dishonest by hiding the flavour of alcohol but a virgin cocktail more innocent as it has nothing to hide. But this would be as much guesswork as the original comment, since I have no sources to cite. --JamesTheNumberless 11:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Woo Woo
can someone tell me why "Woo Woo" redirects here? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.81.197.249 (talk) 15:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC).
 * "Woo Woo" is a type of cocktail, so that's probably why. AiusEpsi 10:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Liquid Cocaine
Why does Liquid Cocaine redirect here? Its a very controversial every drink which doesn't actually contain any cocaine. Rjkd12 23:12, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Liquid Cocaine should redirect to Golden Elk. 24.218.218.9 02:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Cocktail Deadly?
can someone write something about why cocktails can really mess up ur face and cause it to swell forever as said in this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tees/7598614.stm. many people who drank cocktails became deformed due to violent chemical reactions which means this drink can be very dangerous, something should be said about that. Dioxholster (talk) 22:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This doesn't seem at all notable or interesting to me. Rees11 (talk) 02:08, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Recipe section
I removed the new Recipe section. It didn't seem to add any new information. It would be a bad idea to start listing recipes here, as these are controversial enough already, and they are given in the separate articles for individual drinks if they are notable enough. The external links are worthless. There is a separate list of cocktails linked from here if the reader wants to learn more. Rees11 (talk) 22:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Etymology
I think all the unsourced entries in the Etymology section should be removed, and the remaining entries (two of them?) turned into a short paragraph. Rees11 (talk) 22:55, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Image sizes
There has been a lot of back and forth over the image sizes. Please read WP:ImageSize. The main thing to remember here is that not everyone has the same screen and browser that you have. You can tweak the image sizes and placements so they look good to you, and they will look terrible to someone with different screen and font sizes. Wikipedia users have the option to choose their default image sizes to suit their own screen, and when you force a particular image size it defeats the user preferences. So please just let the image sizes default instead of forcing them to fit your screen (and no one else's). Rees11 (talk) 13:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Contradictory Histories
The history section of this article seems to contradict the Etymology section in discussion of the first printed reference. It also includes the same quote as the Etymology section. It seems to me this quote and reference should just be removed from the Etymology section and the reference should be moved up to the History section, but I don't want to do that without access to the original source.

clahey (talk) 23:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Mixology
Mixology shouldn't redirect here, it should have its own page. Thoughts? JesseRafe 07:16, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Defiantly should have it's own page. -- Al™ 02:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Just expanded the Dutch cocktail wikipage with the elementary how to (build, stir, shake and blend among other things). Can't find anything like that in the otherwise extended cocktail-articles in English. Sander1453 (talk) 10:17, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I found this on internet
Bathed by the waters of the Gulf of Mexico, in a picturesque bay on the Yucatan Peninsula, lies the historic port of Campeche, which once gave birth to the most intrepid sailors of America and the most skilled boatbuilders. Many years ago I came to this picturesque tropical port to load majestic sailboats English mahogany and other hardwoods, wood from Brazil, logwood and other various products. No shipped gum, because at that time only chewed the lower classes in Mexico. The officers and sailors down to earth and quench their thirst at the gates of the taverns or in the doorways of the main square. At that time he drank wine, liquor and alcohol without mixing. Ever took "Dracs" of rum, brandy or other spirits, which were prepared drinks in a glass made of thick glass which slowly churning the ingredients with a spoon. Possibly the word "drac" was a corruption of Drake, the British hero of the adventures at sea. In one of those beaches in the Mexican port, the bartender who served drinks used to prepare instead of spoons or sticks, roots thin, fine and smooth of a plant there called for his particular form "rooster tail." British sailors,to see the revolver guy drinks the root of yore, strange to them, they asked what it was, to which he replied "rooster tail" or in English "cock-tail." Henceforth not called "Dracs" but "cocktails."

This is more accurate here in the city where im living.. Campeche --MayaZero 02:52, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

To the notion of the rooster, I'd like to suggest that the rooster signifies the beginning of a day, and perhaps the 'cock's tail' signifies it's end, when cocktails are typically enjoyed.

Adam — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.31.23 (talk) 04:15, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

The whole dipping a feather story is at least 100 years old. The origin of the word cocktail has been a mystery as long as the cocktail itself. Look at any literature prior to the 19th century and even well into the 19th century, they all suggest a cocktail is "not a full breed racing horse" period. It says this over and over and over. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.190.80.94 (talk) 09:21, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Derivative uses
This section seems utterly unrelated to the rest of the article and a bit spurious tbh. If anything, wouldn't it be best disambiguated? Ride the Hurricane (talk) 14:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree. I think this is adequately covered by the "otheruses" template at the top of the article (which I have just changed to an "about" template). Rees11 (talk) 16:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * (Four years on...) I agree and have removed the section. SQGibbon (talk) 22:51, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Non-Alcoholic Cocktails
When I go to the market, I often see a bottle of juice (non alcoholic) labeled as a cocktail, i.e. Cranberry Cocktail, Mix Berry Cocktail, ect. I notice the article doesn't touch on these kinds of cocktails. Is there a reason for this? 71.136.242.178 05:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Because they are mixers and not cocktails. They are named "cocktails" because society has fallen victim to stereotypes and anything thats liquid that mixes with anything else semi liquid is automatically a "cocktail" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.190.80.94 (talk) 09:38, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that these are referred to as "cocktails" because they are a balanced mixture of ingredients intended to create a new, distinct drink. Stereotype need not be blamed when common structure is available instead.MetaGrrrl (talk) 07:20, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Redirect
"Pink Squirrel" likewise redirects here. No mention of Pink Squirrel in the text. 65.90.33.15 (talk) 21:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC) I got redirected to this cocktail page after searching for the song 'Between the Sheets' by the Isley Brothers. Between the Sheets is one of the most commonly hello how are you..? sampled and covered singles of all time, and should have its own page. A slang term shouldn't get in the way of another page.


 * I wouldn't necessarily call it 'slang' since the cocktail Between the Sheets dates from the 1920s<--- lol yeah I was going to say the eisley brothers were around in the early 20th century, wow!

Is the placing of a rooster feather in 18th or early 19th century "cocktails" actually historically documented? I've heard the story called dubious folk-ethmology.

According to here, http://www.word-detective.com/back-x.html, and here http://www.nmk.co.za/content/cocktails/cocktail_origins.htm ,all the etymologies (and I've see at least a dozen) are speculative. I included the "feather" reference because, unlike the others I've read, this one includes a functionality of the feather in the drink and not just a distortion of another word, which appeals to my pragmatic nature. I'll add a reference to these notes.David dePaoli

The earliest I found of the feather story was 1896, but I think I found it by accident I wasn't even looking for that, so it may go back way further. Still, thats still almost 100 years from the purported birth of the cocktail, which is mentioned 200 years before that, by shakespear in Romeo in Juliet "death cocktail". He died in 1616 so we know the term was in use then. Dont believe me see it for yourself. but what do I know, i'm not expert or even valuable enough to contribute without being reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.190.80.94 (talk) 09:32, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

What is the origin of the name "Tom Collins"? Was it invented by a guy named Tom?
 * Named for Old Tom Gin, a sweetened gin common in the 19th century

--ThirtyOneKnots 14:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC) In "The world of drinks" in 1892 there is a poem that the story derives from "my name is john collins, head waiter at limmers, corner of conduit square, my chief occupation is filling the brimmers of all the young gentlemen who frequently there"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.190.80.94 (talk) 09:12, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * That's correct. John Collins at Limmer's is now considered the origin of the Collins drink name. That an Old Tom style gin would have been used makes historical sense, and that the drink name might have shifted over time from "John Collins" to "Tom Collins" seems not only reasonable but likely, according to drink historians.MetaGrrrl (talk) 17:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure flavored seltzers are often consumed as a beverage in New York State, not just used as a mixer. Sometimes tonic water too. Soda is seltzer and tonic is quinine. Thats why the "q" button on a bar gun is for tonic. "L" is for lemon-lime "sprite".

What has happened to the image [[Media:Flaming cocktails.jpg|Flaming cocktails]] that is used by this article? - [[User:Bevo|Bevo]] 15:03, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * From Deletion log archive/November 2004 (2):


 * 15:15, 19 Nov 2004 Ed g2s deleted Image:Flaming cocktails.jpg (moved to commons)


 * However, I can't seem to find it on Commons, so I suppose it should be re-uploaded? (The source link is still in the image description page's deleton history.) -- Hadal 16:26, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Update: It was at the Commons up until yesterday. From Commons:Deletion log:


 * 14:22, 3 Dec 2004 DaB. deleted "Image:Flaming cocktails.jpg" (URV/Copyrightproblem)


 * See also the image's listing at Commons:Deletion requests#Image:Flaming cocktails.jpg. This would explain why it suddenly disappeared. So, if it is indeed a copyright porblem (as it appears DaB. seems to think so, since s/he also deleted the image from de:), perhaps it should not be re-uploaded? I don't know how the Commons copyright policy differs from Wikipedia's, if at all. -- Hadal 17:08, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The following line sounds a bit like a political statement. Is it really needed?

It is said, also to be of great use to a Democratic candidate: because a person, having swallowed a glass of it, is ready to swallow anything else.Higanesh2003 (talk) 20:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Some corrections
A) I've read that coktail originally meant a mixer of to spirits, not what we drink nowadays, spirts and non-alcoholi beverages. b) I've also read that the cocktail was invented in New Orleans in the 19th Century. This is want they claimed during the Cocktail festival this past July.

Dont go to tales, real bartenders were around before tales, btw they are not 11 years old, even in 2007 tales was unheard of, maybe 20 people tops. That whole trend is over anyway, alot of those top "mixologist" dont even bartend anymore, dont believe me, read their blogs, the trend is over. btw who do you think they got that information from?184.190.80.94 (talk) 09:17, 28 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Rumors of the death of the cocktail and claims of a single-city origin for cocktails in general have both been greatly exaggerated. The original cocktail, first defined in print in 1806, consisted of spirit+bitters+sugar+water, not 'a mix of two spirits'. "Cocktails" were originally only one category of mixed drink alongside many others (flips, fizzes, cobblers, etc.) and the word gradually became the dominant term, those other varieties now falling under its general umbrella. The sense of cocktail meaning a mixture of things has broadened its use into other areas such as, for example, "fruit cocktail", a mixture of fruits. New Orleans is a very important city in the origin of the cocktail, and in the popularization of cocktail drinking during the 19th century and since. However, local claims as the origin of the drink should properly be viewed much like Nashville's claim to be the "home of country music". As to the supposed insignificance of the festival Tales of the Cocktail, it should be noted that pretty much every living reference cited in this article presented there at this past festival. It is the preeminent, international, professional convention for the bartending industry, and it is growing larger in attendance, not smaller. Further, the expansion of cocktails into new markets (particularly restaurants which formerly focused exclusively or nearly so on wine) continues to be on an upswing. At some point saturation will surely be reached, but the current boom has shown no signs of peaking yet, despite the 'speakeasy' trend giving way to other less precious approaches.MetaGrrrl (talk) 18:03, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Suggest merger of Rimming Sugar into this article
Currently, Rimming sugar is a stub that has remained a 3 sentence stub since 2005 and to be honest I don't really see how it could be expanded into anything resembling a standalone article. As it stands, it's just a target for people keen to exploit its innuendo potential. I think that it would work far better as a subsection here. Anyone got any views? d a n n o 19:18, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * This sounds like a good idea.Wahrmund (talk) 21:00, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I am in favor. Rees11 (talk) 22:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It could easily be a full article - there are hundreds of sources for most anything alcohol related, and if we were to put material of this level of detail in the master article it would become hopelessly long. There's no real harm in merging or just redirecting for now given that the other article doesn't stand on its own for now, but it should be without prejudice to anyone wanting to create it as a bona fide article.  Not that I would put that at the top of my list... there are still oodles of redlinks and major topics not covered in this corner of Wikipedia.  Wikidemon (talk) 18:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Am I the only one that knows a cocktail is a drink itself? I am aware it is an entire category of drinks, but where is the recipe for a cocktail? I think recipes for a cocktail should be included for the fact that this drink has one, call me crazy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.73.10.230 (talk) 11:29, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been studying cocktail history for 15 years (and indeed have written an award-nominated book on the topic) and I have always heard 'cocktail' used to describe a category, either very specific as in early book appearances of the 1860s through 1890s or else in the modern broadest sense encompassing all mixed drinks (including those previously considered separate categories such as fizzes and flips). Please provide a reference or recipe for this singular drink called 'cocktail'.MetaGrrrl (talk) 18:09, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Popular with Prohibition?
"The cocktail became popular with Prohibition in the United States." That's simply not true, according to the sources I've read (Wondrich, Regan, DeGroff, etc). Someone needs to seriously re-write the history section. If I get ambitious I'll do it. Rees11 (talk) 15:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

you proudly read the guy who truly believes cocktail comes from sticking ginger up a horses ass and making its tail cock and make it frisky. ... thats your hero — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drinkreader (talk • contribs) 09:37, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Etymology 2
What about the the pony etymology: on horse auctions, mixed-blood horses were marked by binding their tail upward just as a cock tail (so-called cocktailed ponies). The notion of mixing things together was then taken from horses to drinks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.88.114 (talk) 23:02, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

This makes the most sense, considering it is one of the earliest and indeed, many drinks were named after horses during this time frame (horse's neck, stinger, old-fashioned, and the cocktail itself (half breed racing horse). To be fair though, this was a mystery over a hundred years ago.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.73.10.230 (talk) 11:32, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

The above is absolutely correct and has been confirmed by cocktail historians. The word cocktail appears well over a 1000 times in literature before 1806 or even 1798. Why does the first printing matter anyway? and why would you write something in the position to be corrected in the future, like "first". Why not say "as early as". Makes more sense. The word cocktail 100% derives from the term for the half breed racing horse. this should be added and accredited properly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:7704:2D30:8884:6771:587:3535 (talk) 03:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

The reference to high-spirited horses seems the most likely of all the possible origin stories and is, as of this year, the one considered most likely by David Wondrich, the preeminent historian of all matters relating to such beverages. Here's the quote: ″And I actually know where ′cocktail′ came from, pretty solidly. It’s in the book. Ginger was used in the horse trade to make a horse stick its tail up. They'd put it in its ass. If you had an old horse you were trying to sell, you would put some ginger up its butt, and it would cock its tail up and be frisky. That was known as “cock-tail.” It comes from that. It became this morning thing. Something to cock your tail up, like an eye-opener. I’m almost positive that’s where it’s from.″ That origin story fits very well with contemporaneous use of "ginger" as a slang term. MetaGrrrl (talk) 03:25, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Did you read what you said? Please read cocktail old fashion: the true origin of the cocktail and old fashion. The cocktail was derived from cocktail horses that were recently imported after the repeal of the 1783 import act which banned the importation of cocktail horses. Now knowing this, what's more possible, ginger in the ass, or a repeal of an act that banned former presidents and notable figures from importing their beautiful racing cocktails. So can we please remove any David Wondrich reference given his wildly inaccurate information thats being taken as truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:7704:2D30:B8ED:78CB:2A4D:D4FF (talk) 15:47, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Which is more likely?

Someone stuck a piece of ginger in a horses ass and somehow derived the word cocktail from it? or

It was the repeal of the 1783 import act that allowed the first generation of cocktail horses to be shipped to virginia in 1784 as illustrated in the aforementioned "cocktail - old fashion" book. I can't believe this is even being discussed. 199.80.74.66 (talk) 13:55, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you have a proper citation to that source? Even just the author's name would help. Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:21, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * What is the "cocktail - old fashion" book?? What is the author and the proper title? Link us to it, even. I'm pretty sure there is nothing in The Old Fashioned by Robert Simonson that disagrees with us. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 19:02, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

METAGIRL'S CITATION IS CORRECT. This has been thoroughly researched. I don't care what you heard when you were a bartender or what your grandpappy told you. -- Doctorx0079

It wont let me publish the link to that cocktail book. Type "cocktail old fashion herpin" is the author. Im sorry, but hes completely right. You should read the book and rewrite this entire page. Youre wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:c67a:b5d1:dd52:21ef:c6b4:3e5c (talk) 05:21, 28 September 2018
 * That's not a proper citation. Give me the title of the book and the author's name and I'll take a look. Otherwise this is just noise. Kendall-K1 (talk) 11:46, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
 * the title is "cocktail old fashion" author is herpin, it was a free download idk anymore — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:c6e1:bdc1:a87f:c0e0:e4d:cac (talk) 17:46, 29 September 2018

The book is here: https://www.amazon.com/Cocktail-Old-Fashion-cocktail-fashioned-ebook/dp/B01IFDMXX0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538338405&sr=8-1&keywords=cocktail+old+fashion+herpin I'm not sure why it would be so hard to copy and paste that. It's a self-published e-book that's 27 pages long. Does that count as a reliable source? -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 20:23, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Obviously not. Even if it were, that would just be one more story to add. It wouldn't be a reason to remove the single sentence we devote to Wondrich. Kendall-K1 (talk) 05:53, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Self published books are not reliable sources, That being said, i've read it, there is a lot of references that can be used here. Including pages already existing within wikipedia to link to. Although it doesn't violate any guideline or law, the author appears to be upset about thier "work" being copyrighted seeing as even self published authors don't own the rights to the work, in this case amazon does. It does seem immoral and i'd rather not upset people that i can avoid upsetting. Perhaps the author should contact local papers or online liquor magazines with their "discoveries" and perhaps return with reliable sources. Just a suggestion. I dont agree with either of you, as annoying as the author seems that book is actually really really informative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:C623:48EF:FD2A:18F9:F925:F1CA (talk) 18:21, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Why should I read that SELF-PUBLISHED, UNRELIABLE book if I can't even use it here? And are you another sockpuppet of David Herpin?? :)  -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 02:23, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

What about the virginia port bill of 1784? Isnt that when the first cocktail horses arrived? Including medley, ancestor of fashion, who was also a cocktail horse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:C6CC:F1E:1CA9:32BD:912F:1059 (talk) 04:21, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't see the relevance of cocktail horses. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 01:50, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Medley and diomed were cocktail horses imported in 1784 right after the repeal along with sugar and bitters, it was this event that caused its creation, the lairds were responisble for creating the cocktail. They owned medley, grandsire of fashion, another cocktail horse involved with a drink. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:D62E:E86E:8052:8F31:9E9F:7EE7 (talk) 05:47, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Cocktails have always been made/created and distributed by liquor companies, as in the case with nearly every single tried and true call, the cocktail and old fashion are no different. The company actually hold the first license in the us issued to operate business in 1780. They also raised and races horses, particularly, cocktail horses.

They were the largest distributor of brandy for over a century, well into the 19th century. Now knowing everything was banned, including sugar, wouldnt this repeal be a pretty big thing, like wow. We can make our brandy even sweeter and add soms bitters. This was 4 years after they started to operate. This is also precisely when the cocktail appears in literature. Its no coincidence.

Americas number 1 drink imports cocktail racing horses, makes up a drunk and lists a recipe on the labels? Its still happening today. Its been going on forever.

They did the same thing when fashion died, another cocktail horse they rode and trained and was a descendent of medley and diomed, whi were part of the original 6 cocktails imported in 1784.

Its called the virginia import bill of 1784. Thats where capt mcnabb sailed to in 1784 with the original cocktail horses. Then they were dispersed medley, then later, diomed going to the lairds.

Ive read the bill, its about slavery, man, if people knew how against slavery america was in 1784 they would laugh at all this racial tension. The import ban was to ban slavery importation, but it banned all imports. It was the repeal that allowed the cocktails, bitters, sugar, etc to create the drink.

It was this event, this is the connection to the cocktails. Theyve been trying to figure this out for over 100 years and I figured it out. So rest assured i know what im talking about. I AM THE REAL FOREMOST EXPERT ON ALL THINGS COCKTAILS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:D62E:E86E:8052:8F31:9E9F:7EE7 (talk) 06:08, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Way more information is in the book listed in the amazon link about 50 pages, its an easy read and youll learn do much more than ibe told youve here. About how many hundreds of drinks, when and what company was responsible for creating them. Its always a liquor company and its always an event, place, famous person, song, movie, etc... name one drink that isnt. A real drink. What? Ciapirhnia? Cacacha dates to 1515, i know all avout it, its stilla liquor company thats responsible, you see, everytime. Alot of drinks were named after modes of transportation, 57 chevy, sidecar, named after its introduction in 1903 race. Horses like the horses neck, which was a photo finish, stinger which was the improvement on the plow in 1910 and arrow spirits, who was a precursor to hiram walkers introduction of creme de menthe. Juleps were still popular and it was easier to use a liquor than properly make a julep. Which was originally prescribed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:D62E:E86E:8052:8F31:9E9F:7EE7 (talk) 06:26, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Let me put it in a better way so you can truly understand what i know about cocktail history. If you told me something about a cocktails history, i could not only tell you how wrong you are, but i could tell you the original source where you got that wrong information. People with this "first printed in jerry thomas" stuff kill me! There are literally hundreds of 19th century cocktail guides and ivd read them, extensively. Alot of drinks are other things already, like the maidens prayer predates the between the sheets. There are two rum runners with two entirely differeng etymologies. ive read so many advertisements, magazines, recipe books, new and old like 1522 brandy milk punch recipe in a saratago museum in a 500 year old book that left orange shit all over my hands. I was flown out there by a liquor company to do research for them. Ive read stuff about drinks. Wouldnt you think it behooves you to at least learn a little truth?

Im sure youve read as much about cocktails as i have, so i know you know that if you know anything from early cocktail literature there are three things that show up constantly. Must be important.

Any true cocktail historian will confirm.

1. The julep is to be served with the stems facing down, most of this is because of the 1844 capt marrayt story. Never the less, it appears time and time again.

2. The fizz is to be consumed immediately.

3. Cocktails are half breed racing horses. Time and time and time and time again this appears when searching for cocktails.

Cocktails which appears in a 1786 encyclopedia. See how i didnt say "first appears" so i cant be proven wrong in the future. So even in 1786, they were still thought of as horses, meaning the cocktail wasnt worldwide yet. It was still local.

The mixture of the newly arrives sugar, orange bitters, and apple brandy was a cocktail of sorts. Just like the cocktails the company had just aquired.

Does that help?

Its a mixture of a few etymologies which are all slightly off. Cocktail horses did have thier tails docked and cut. One of the original cocktails belonged to the original american brandy owner. Cocktails were always a mixture of breeds. But more specifically remember its always names after some event of thing or something big, and this was certainly big, something to jumpstart thier new found company in a newfound struggling america. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:D62E:E86E:8052:8F31:9E9F:7EE7 (talk) 07:14, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

We have already explained why your book is inadmissable as a source. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 23:06, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

The 15th reference on this page, list "old fashion....brandy" as a recipe in its index. How is an existing reference inadmissible?

And how is a 1784 bill inadmissible?

Pray tell? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:D62E:E86E:8052:8F31:9E9F:7EE7 (talk) 01:17, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

The cabal is real. ;) -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 19:22, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

(j/k)

Definition of cocktail
The current definition in the article—"any beverage that contains three or more ingredients if at least two of them contain alcohol"—is highly problematic as it excludes many drinks widely understood to be cocktails, for example the Piña Colada to name one off the top of my head. I recommend this be changed to that from Oxford Dictionaries—"An alcoholic drink consisting of a spirit or several spirits mixed with other ingredients, such as fruit juice, lemonade, or cream"—or something similar.

It'd be good to add"bitters" into that list of other common ingredients to honor the earliest definitions—spirit, sugar, bitters—distinguishing 'cocktails' from other drink types (e.g. fizzes, smashes, etc.) in the days before the term expanded as an umbrella encompassing all mixed drinks with alcoholic ingredients.

This is hardly the only problem in this page, but it'd be a good start to fix it. (And perhaps here I am making a note to my future, less-busy self.) MetaGrrrl (talk) 03:10, 28 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The article already mentions this as one possible etymology. How would you change this? SQGibbon (talk) 21:44, 8 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't doubt the use of the word "cocktail" when referring to horse races (the OED makes this clear). That there is a connection between cocktailed horses and the drink seems entirely reasonable to me and that theory is already present in the article. Why you think "Laird's Applejack Cookbook" from 2002 is the only reliable source on the topic is a bit puzzling. What do you base that on? Plenty of other reliable sources have not reached the same conclusion.


 * We are not here to determine the truth. We are only here to report what reliable sources state. There is no consensus from experts on the etymology of the word with respect to drinks. If you believe your source is reliable (and I don't see why you do) and that its etymology is sufficiently different from the others then by all means go ahead and add it to the article.


 * And for what it's worth, I don't think Wondrich's theory is likely to be correct at all but he is a reliable source and that's why we include it.


 * And please, calm down. I did not ask my question looking for a fight. I personally don't care one whit what the outcome to this is. All I care about is making sure we follow Wikipedia policies and guidelines and that one person doesn't push their opinions all over Wikipedia. SQGibbon (talk) 20:57, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

For those of you who are confused by the above discussion, as I was, there were more comments but they have been removed by their author. They are in the page history if you are curious. Kendall-K1 (talk) 16:34, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Someone else made this change, and I have fixed it to be a complete sentence with a proper ref. Kendall-K1 (talk) 13:30, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140713113329/http://www.imbibemagazine.com/images/Balance_5-13-1806.pdf to http://www.imbibemagazine.com/images/Balance_5-13-1806.pdf

Why is this important, are we just going to include every single published piece of literature on the cocktail? Because this isnt the first by a long stretch. Its even in encyclopedia Britannica in 1786, which predates this by 20 years, so ibask again are we just going to add every single reference? Im removing it, its outdated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:C6E1:BDC1:A87F:C0E0:E4D:CAC (talk) 14:48, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

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old fashion
Do you know if the original reciepe of the Old Fashion? Is it with soda? Seltzer was introduced nationally in 1883 so probably not considering the old fashion predates this. But what do I know, i'm not even valuable enough to contribute without being reverted.


 * The Old-Fashioned was a name which arose in the second half of the 19th century when the variety of cocktails began to expand and it became useful to distinguish the most traditional presentation of a cocktail (spirit, a small amount of sugar or simple syrup, and a dash of bitters, perhaps garnished with a twist of citrus peel) from its newer relations, many of which incorporated additional ingredients. The addition of seltzer may have come about through bartenders making this classically small (~2 ounce) drink in too large a glass, and wishing to "lengthen" it so as not to appear to be cheating the customer on quantity.MetaGrrrl (talk) 07:16, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

cocktail - old fashion: the true origin of the cocktail and old fashion, explains in great detail about these drinks, including ingredients. If I remember correctly, it's Laird's apple brandy, curacao, maraschino liqueur, brown sugar, water, angostura bitters. You are correct in calling it an old fashion and not old fashioned, fashion was the name of the horse the Laird family rode in the 1850s when the drink was created. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:7704:2D30:B8ED:78CB:2A4D:D4FF (talk) 15:39, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I call shenanigans. - Doctorx0079 (talk) 00:57, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

You obviously didn't read the book. He's right. This entire page needs to be edited.199.80.74.66 (talk) 13:50, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * So be bold and go ahead and do it. And then I will correct you. But I'm pretty sure David Wondrich knows his stuff. Definitive resources on this topic include Imbibe! and The Old Fashioned. Or just look at what Wondrich posts on The Daily Beast. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 18:54, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

The same wondrich that suggested that the cocktail comes from sticking ginger in the asses if horses? Seriously.... Really?

You are him! He doesnt know shit and is the laughing stock among the industry. How old are you now wondrich? 70? Youll be dead soon and who will protect your fake references then? Ill be here long long after your gone and ill be out of law school by then too. I assure you if i dont do anything else in life I will male sure all your false information is removed.

Im also reporting you as ypuve already told me your going to revert my edit, even before youve seen it, showing obvious bias. You may be a mod, but you wont be moderating any cocktail pages seeing as your obviously biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:c6e1:bdc1:a87f:c0e0:e4d:cac (talk) 11:49, 30 September 2018

The "laughing stock of the industry" must be why Oxford University Press has Wondrich editing their forthcoming, extensively researched Oxford Companion to Spirits and Cocktails. MetaGrrrl (talk) 01:20, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Vocktail
Perhaps a page can be made on the Vocktail ? It's referred to as a "virtual cocktail", but basically water served in a special glass that "hijacks the senses" See here Genetics4good (talk) 18:04, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm skeptical that it's really notable. I don't think experimental inventions really belong here. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 21:51, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Lead
In 2019 this article was flagged as the lead that didn't adequately summarise the article's contents. I have since added 2 sentences to the lead to reflect the article's contents. Am unsure if any more needs to be added as the article only has 3 subheadings. I think if more was needed it would only be a sentence or two more. Pourmetea (talk) 07:17, 20 September 2020 (UTC)