Talk:Cognac

Source #15
Source 15 in the citations ( "Décret n° 2011-685 du 16 juin 2011 relatif à l'appellation d'origine contrôlée « Cognac » ou « Eau-de-vie de Cognac » ou « Eau-de-vie des Charentes » (MINISTÈRE DE L'AGRICULTURE, DE L'ALIMENTATION, DE LA PÊCHE, DE LA RURALITÉ ET DE L'AMÉNAGEMENT DU TERRITOIRE, June 2011)" (PDF).) is no longer working. Links to an error page. Consider replacing with something more current. The link is also to an article in French so I have no way of navigating to the article myslef to update it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karimrowel (talk • contribs) 20:57, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Discussion header
The map over the Cognac region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carte_du_cognac.jpg) isn't exactly pretty. The not-exactly-perfect hand-drawn arrow and the JPEG artifacts makes it look like really unprofessional. Could someone make a replacement? If it was up to me, it should be removed until a new one is ready...

The movie 'Clue' has some mention of cognac at least a couple times in the movie. I should dig out my DVD and review it and add that to the pop culture section.

Size of Area
Something wrong with the map or the size of the appelation areas stated in the text. 13 hectares ? 4 hectares ? I dont think so ! Do they mean 13 square kilometres maybe. Eregli bob 12:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, since an hectare is only something like 2.47 acres, the author of the article is far, far off. Why hasn't it been changed? _ The above comment was made almost four months ago. [P. Meier] April 12, 2007

Fungus
The section on how cognac is made mentions a black fungus that grows in the cellars, but doesn't say any more about it. Is the fungus believed to contribute to the flavour of the beverage? If not, is there a reason why it is mentioned?--Srleffler 04:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Blending additives
There is a gathering momentum to dismiss cognac as a sophisticated product as the number of blending additives allowed by law are enough to artificially manipulate the product into one that bears no resemblance to the original distillate. The four legal additives are: water (or 60 proof petites eaux), boisé (wood flavor essence to simulate aging), sugar syrup (to sweeten the product), and caramel essences (for artificially darkening the product). Charles Neal has a good explanation. http://charlesnealselections.com/cognac/cognac.html
 * I would say rather there are a few people who dismiss cognac as a sophisticated product, mostly out of snobbery. These buveurs-élites are rarely long-time cognac aficionados who want to see a change in the industry, but rather drinkers of wine, scotch, etc who are so insecure they need to find a reason to feel superior to someone who likes a more expensive drink than they do. I happen to prefer my liquor unadulterated, but there's an enormous number of people in the world who disagree and whom cognac suits just fine, thank you very much.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.223.207 (talk) 05:49, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Armenian Cognac
Anyone know anything about Armenian cognac? Vpoko 15:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

-->There's no Armenian cognac. Cognac is only from France. It's Armenian brandy, and I can't tell you more about it!


 * Well, the Armenians do call it Armenian cognac. I recognize that it's a brandy, like all cognac, but they do call it a cognac, no matter how much France might object to it. Vpoko 16:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

-->So you must be American, the best country ever to use foreign appelations as Cognac, Champagne, Chablis...Back to your answer, Georgia and its neighbours are famous in Europe for selling more than they produce.


 * By a normal linguistic process, the word conyak (approx.) is used in some languages as the word for brandy -- rather as coca (approx.) is used as the name for a sickly-sweet dark brown bubbly drink. Sometimes, using various laws and international agreements, people manage to change this terminology, and that may often be a good thing, because it can be confusing even if not intended to deceive. Encyclopedias can't ignore these terms, however. Andrew Dalby 09:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Do these people know that Cognac is a town? An AOC? Cognac is a brandy, and to call it Cognac means it's a brandy from Cognac region & appellation. So any other producer/negociant using it for its products out of that just want to lie to customers/consumers. To lie on production area and inferred quality. Do you know Torres brandy from Spain? Did he choose to use an AOC from another country? No, and he has wonderful spirits at really good prices. Did others producers in others countries do it? Some did. If you find a Kognac, Conyac, Coniac, Coñac...just switch for a Torres!   ;-)   Olive17


 * I've had Armenian cognac and you're right, it's inferior to the French stuff. But its quality and authenticity notwithstanding, it exists and this is an encyclopedia article so it might be worth a mention, even if it's to say that other regions make brandies that they also call cognac and but they are considered knockoffs. I'd put it in myself, but without a source it would be OR. Vpoko 13:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Wherever one comes down on the nomenclature issue, it is well-established that Stalin served the Armenian product to Winston Churchill, who developed enough of an appreciation for it that for several years afterwards arrangements were made to send a supply from the Soviet Union for Churchill's personal consumption. Nandt1 (talk) 00:19, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

--> Aren't there South American brandies that are legally allowed to be sold internationally as cognacs? I seem to remember somthing about some nation negotiating the right in exchange for forgiving a sizable debt that the French owed.

-- -- --> for sure no, don't make me laugh anymore with this debt story!!

From what I've seen online, the English spelling of the Russian word for should would be KONAK, likely pronounced Kone-Yak like you'd expect from Cognac.

The debt payment is related to post-WWII France. I've covered it somewhat in the talk section Uruguay Cognac. Consult that section for links.

France appears to be suing to keep all non-French Cognacs from being called anything sounding like Cognac. Such as the South American variety in question. Also covered further down the talk page.

Mentioning various knockoff Cognac brands would be like putting information on the Hong Kong (or Singapore? don't remember) produced 'Pretendo' NES/SNES-compatible game consoles into the articles for the real NES/SNES. I have no idea if this would be appropriate, but I think it's a valid comparison. At the least, we could put it in with a valid reference, then find something mentioning France's view of the knockoff brands and France's legal take on the issue.74.67.17.22 (talk) 19:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it ought to be mentioned in the wikipedia article, for the simple reason that, as so many editors from Europe are quick to point out, WP does not, needs not, and should not conform strictly to any particular point of view, agenda, or national standard that does not conform to reality. There IS such a thing as Armenian Cognac, just as there is Russian Champagne and American Sauterne(s), and if the article fails to take this into account it will create more confusion rather than being informative about the issue.  Readers should be able to note that ANY country that does not have a bilateral PDO treaty with France regarding the designation 'Cognac' may permit products to be labeled 'Cognac', as is apparently the case with Armenia (but not, pace Olive17, the USA, see USC title 27, §5.22(d)(2)).

"Similar" to armagnac?
It was my understanding that armagnac was similar to cognac, in that it comes from France (albeit a geographically distinct region), and is a brandy. There are many differences in production and style. I think it is a mischaracterization to say that the two are "related."

Perhaps, but the proliferation of the Ugni Blanc grape in both Cognac (approx. 97%) and armagnac (approx. 50%) allows one to view them asa similar products. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Epimetheus Rex (talk • contribs) 18:21, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Cognac Glass
The Cognac Snifter Shown in the beggining of the article is not correct. The proper glass for Cognac is the 'tulip glass' which stops the alcohol vapours to shock your nostrils and allows you to smell the aromas in a more discerning way.213.151.124.82 11:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

American Culture
Removed, this was touch extraneous don't you think? Besides, Grinderman is as relevant to popular American culture as Neil Diamond Smith.
 * Grinderman's song No Pussy Blues has the protagonist drinking "a litre of congnac" and throwing a girl down "upon her back", yet she still does not want to have sex with him.
 * HAHAHAHAHA! American Culture my arse… Pinothyj (talk) 14:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

"Hip Hop Culture"
Suggest removing the sentence beginning with "It is estimated that between 60% and 80% of the American cognac market is now black...," as the link (citation) ending the sentence is no longer working. Please update the link/source, or remove this sentence.

>also can you change "black" to something more accurate, as we have black people in new zealand who are neither african nor american, yet the term "black" describes them too —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.41.90 (talk) 08:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Cognac popularity growth in hip hop goes back to at least 1990. Greg Jacobs (aka Shock G, Humpty Hump) mentions it in a song called The Humpty Dance. "I drink up all the Hennessey ya got on ya shelf" I thought his name would be interesting to put in there, considering that the other artists weren't as known in 1990. His sang the line while in his stage persona Humpty Hump. You can refer to various websites and interviews for references to this lyrical line. I don't know which are good Wikipedia resources, so I'll leave that up to a more practiced editor.74.67.17.22 (talk) 10:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

>also, what does "significantly black" mean here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.221.223.50 (talk) 04:27, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Uruguay and Cognac
The comment about cognac and uruguay needs citation or to be removed. I cannot find another reference to this obscure fact and am sure that it's probably not true. Can anybody verify this "fact"?

- The above comment is not mine, it's unsigned. I didn't bother looking through any different article versions to look for the edit since the above comment wasn't signed/dated. What follows this sentence is a six hour long contest between myself, the internet, and the mysterious Spanish language with it's 'ny' and 'iy' sounds coming from a single n or i with a funny squiggle above it.

After some digging, I found a copy/pasted mention of the removed text. This is exactly the text I found, as it appeared. Here it is, copy/pasted back to us, in a full-circle gesture.

"The region of Cognac, divided up into six growth areas, or crus (singular cru), covers the department of Charente-Maritime, a large part of the Charente and a few areas in Deux-Sèvres and the Dordogne. [...] The only other place where Cognac can be made is in Uruguay. After World War II, France paid its debts to ANCAP of Uruguay with Ugni Blanc, know-how for making Cognac, and the right to use the denomination."

Interestingly, Yahoo Answers links to this article. A copy/paste of a portion of this article, including the paragraph in question, was submitted as an answer to someone asking what Cognac is.

This link provides information that supports the claims in this version of the paragraph. It also introduces us to Juanico Winery. The author also mentions in the after-publication comments that the 'legend' of Uruguayan Cognac may have some falseness to it, something about trademark infringement. Seems they're declaring Uruguay Cognac as illegal now. Might be related to the fact that the original recipient doesn't own Juanico Winery anymore. Might be able to get some links to look through by emailing the owner of the article at the below link that wouldn't count as original research. dan@saltshaker.net http://www.saltshaker.net/20060227/a-mix-of-grapes-and-cultures

ANCAP is a petroleum company in Uruguay. http://www.ancap.com.uy They also manufactured Cognac, and the letters ANCAP can be found on bottles of cognac. Here's an image of a particular bottle of Cognac I found. The bottle says Argentina, which appears to be an error since you can check its origin, Juanico, which is a winery in Uruguay. You may have to download the image and enlarge it to see the lettering. http://minivodkaguy.com/JuanicoCognacArgentina.jpg

I was unable to find a source for that trademark infringement claim. At the very least, France thinks they're still manufacturing since there was a bill passed 2 years ago saying that Juanico could not make Cognac anymore using the official method. It's possible that the image I found of the bottle is of a bottle old enough to predate the sale of Juanico's Cognac-appropriate grapevines to another owner, but I haven't found a picture of another bottle.

A theory of mine is that Juanico thinks they can still sell their existent Cognac inventory abroad as long as they don't make any more, and Cognac (town in France) thinks they shouldn't be selling any either. Since I don't understand French well enough to search for anything to prove/disprove my theory, I'll leave it up to someone else if they feel like it. I'm sure there's some French news article mentioning it somewhere, if it indeed exists.

http://www.ancap.com.uy (flash site) ANCAP sells alcoholic beverages under the label CABA S.A. which appears to be short for "COMPAniA DE BEBIDAS ALCOHOLICAS S.A." which when translated from spanish is basically 'alcoholic beverage company INC.

CABA S.A. homepage, dealing exclusively with consumable alcohol, as opposed to ANCAP's production of industrial alcohols and solvents. http://www.caba.com.uy/htm/tragos.htm The page features a number of drink recipes, many featuring Juanico Cognac. Juanico is listed as one of their products, and is identified as a Cognac. The wikipedia article doesn't list the Juanico brand. http://www.caba.com.uy/htm/juanico.htm The page includes english translations of the body text. The top banner says CABA S.A. Under that it says in Spanish, 'The ANCAP Alcoholic Beverage Company, Incorporated.' Apparently S.A. is Spanish for 'INC.' even though Incorporated is Incorporado. Might be like the German G.M.B.H.

I'm sorry if this whole thing is a mess of the talk page. I tried editing a few wikipedia articles and ended up unable to get it to look anything but 'UNREGISTERED IP WAS HERE' so I'll leave the editing up to the pros. I'm more a research type than a syntax type.74.67.17.22 (talk) 19:17, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

"WWI cognac continues to surface in Macedonia"
"Dubbed ’nectar of the gods,’ 90-year-old spirit now worth $7,000 per ". I thought it might merit a mention in the article...--87.227.77.85 14:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Brands and Companies?
The "Companies" section seems redundant to the more complete "Brands" section. Any reason why I shouldn't remove it? -Verdatum (talk) 02:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm guessing a company is a company that mainly, or only Produces Cognac, while a brand is a apart of a company that may produce just cognac or may produce other beverages as well. Pinothyj (talk) 14:59, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

10 vs 10%
If 90% must be special grapes, then 10% can be other grapes. Why did you revert this? RogueNinja talk  11:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry I read the text to specify the number of varieties allowed for the remaining 10%, but of course this number is five. Added the first references of the page to clear this up now. M URGH   disc.  13:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Provided the grapes have a normal sugar content then natural fermentation should reach about 13% ABV after two weeks.203.219.188.92 (talk) 01:46, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

VS, VSOP and XO
Why hasn't anybody questioned the meaning of these abbreviations? As Cognac is a French drink, I would expect there to be a French meaning to these abbreviations. I must admit, these abbreviations fit the English version nicely, but I would like to see proof this from a reliable source (e.a. non-wikipedia website, preferrably from a Cognac brand). HagenaarsDotNu talk 16:30, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, we need better sourcing. But no, the meanings are correct as stated.  The British and their abbreviations were essential in establishing the international trade of many types of alcoholica, from sherry and port to whisky and cognac.  (Who knows, Mr. Hennessey might have had a hand in this.)  But the use of these names for cognac/armagnac, while unofficial, reflects the "British standard" common to these specialty spirits.  I think the French just picked up on that.  Jtnet (talk) 09:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like to challenge the original terminology. I agree that the words VS, VSOP and XO are derived from the british whose consumption of brandy established the market for Brandy. I have read a history of the importance of the british in establishing the styles of alcoholic beveredges including port, sherry, claret and brandy. This was well before the 19th century. It was dependent on wars between european powers where the brits would get the grog from. VSOP stands for a grade of brandy used to fortify portugese wine into port. VSOP means 'very special old port' It is important that wikipedia does not adopt the utterings of marketing220.236.179.175 (talk) 10:50, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Challenging involves proof, surely? Perhaps VSOP et cetera are marketing gimmicks, but one must prove this before it's accepted.Epimetheus Rex (talk) 18:24, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Isn't the "proof" staring at you on the face of each bottle of cognac? What more proof could you want? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.102.49.194 (talk) 11:41, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Île de Ré
the chart is missing the Île de Ré - on official website also a "Bois ordinaire" -- 79.219.49.205 (talk) 00:33, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Above comment from 2008 is correct, the chart used here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Cognac_Regions3.svg needs an additional island colored. Compare to https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognac_(eau-de-vie)#/media/File:Cognac_france_map-fr.svg. BNIC confirms Île de Ré is in Bois Ordinaire/Bois de Terroir, so that the FR chart is correct, no surprise. => =>  72.93.49.80 (talk) 18:19, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Brands
who took the liberty of removing nearly all the brands in the " brands" list - and why?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rasmus1166 (talk • contribs) 09:48, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I did. If the brand doesn't have an article, it shouldn't be listed here. Wikipedia does not exist to list every known brand of cognac. TN X Man  15:32, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Old Cognacs
Under the grades section, it indicates that some premium cognacs are aged for up to 200 years - this is incorrect, they are simply 200 years old. No spirit is aged much past 50-odd years - there wouldn't be anything left!

Such cognacs are either decanted into demijohns for storage or used to 'top up' younger eau-de-vie.Jellyfish dave (talk) 12:23, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting note. If you have a source for that, please add it in! The article could use some expanding. TN X Man  12:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree it sounds prima facie unlikely, and could just be a slightly cavalier use of "aged for xx years", when it really means "xx years old" (as noted, there is a difference of course). However, looking on the Remy Cointreau site for example, this page would appear to suggest that some of these specialist cognacs are genuinely bottled from very old barrels. Either way, all of what's listed there probably needs some references or sources regardless. N-HH   talk / edits  13:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Fine Champagne
Should Fine Champagne be merged into this article?--Robert Treat (talk) 01:49, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support proposal. It's just a category of Cognac and does not justify it's own article. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:34, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Cognac-like drink in North Korea
After I read about this and went to a Observatory right next to the DMZ, I was introduced to a Cognac-like brandy from North Korea. I don't think there are sustainable grapes farming in North Korea and I wonder if someone can confirm this. Good Chinese sources would be better. Komitsuki (talk) 08:50, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Film section
Why is it there? It's not relevant or interesting. I'm going to remove it unless there are objections. Ebolamunkee (talk) 06:55, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Cognac - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 16:40, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The record of that discussion can now be found at Talk:Cognac, France. —&#8288;&#8202;&#8288;BarrelProof (talk) 04:23, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Uruguayan Cognac
Folks, please see these sources (Caba, Saltshaker, Leonardo Haberkorn, Universidad ORT). Uruguay currently produces authorised cognac. --NaBUru38 (talk) 22:28, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * All these are Uruguayan or at the last Spanish-language sources making the claim. Since Cognac has to be made in Cognac to be called Cognac, I'm not quite sure how it's possible to make Cognac anywhere outside Cognac. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It is simply not universally true that "Cognac has to be made in Cognac to be called Cognac". Each country makes its own laws about what words can be used on the products sold within their jurisdiction. Also, sometimes a product can be made in one place that follows the general production methods and has roughly the same characteristics of a product made somewhere else, and may then be considered roughly equivalent enough to be informally referred to by the same name – at least by some people. —BarrelProof (talk) 23:57, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Translation
Some sections are so awkwardly written I assume they are poor translations from French. ˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.22.226.46 (talk) 04:42, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Grapes
What exists right now in the article is The white wine used in making cognac is very dry, acidic, and thin; though it has been characterized as "virtually undrinkable", it is excellent for distillation and aging. It may be made only from a strict list of grape varieties. For it to be considered a true cru, the wine must be at least 90% Ugni blanc (known in Italy as Trebbiano), Folle blanche and Colombard, while up to 10% of the grapes used can be Folignan, Jurançon blanc, Meslier St-François (also called Blanc Ramé), Sélect, Montils, or Sémillon. Cognacs which are not to carry the name of a cru are freer in the allowed grape varieties, needing at least 90% Colombard, Folle blanche, Jurançon blanc, Meslier Saint-François, Montils, Sémillon, or Ugni blanc, and up to 10% Folignan or Sélect.

I do not nelive this is quite correct or up to date (anymore)! but i need confirmation and citations from those in the know. As far as i know, the grapes permitted are NOW restricted to the following white grape varieties: - Colombard, Folle Blanche, Montils, Sémillon and Ugni Blanc - Folignan, representing no more than 10% of the encepagement (A French term used to describe the relative proportions of different grape varieties at a wine estate)

jurançon blanc, meslier saint-françois and select grape varieties were permitted o be grown and harvested until the 2020 harvest if they were planted before September 18, 2005. Since it is past the 2020 harvest these three cepage are now only of historic interest)