Talk:College of William & Mary/Archive 2

Yule log
Doesn't the president read "Twas The Night Before Christmas" at the Yule Log ceremony, and the Vice President for Student Affairs (aka Sam Sadler) read "How the Grinch Stole Christmas", rather than the other way around?
 * Never. It's always been the other way 'round.  I should know - I've sung at the ceremony four years running. --AlbertHerring 08:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The Oldest?
Harvard was founded as a seminary. William and Mary was the first secular liberal arts institution. If it's "higher learning," yes, Harvard is the oldest. It depends on classification and terms. The problem with the "oldest" college is how we define it. William and Mary's roots start in 1620 with the original Anglican college in Henrico, but that school was destroyed in a Powhatan raid. Harvard actually was the first in operation in 1636. But W&M has the oldest standing building from 1695, whereas Harvard's original facilities are no longer standing. Either way, the two schools don't have a serious rivalry over these dates. As one visiting professor from Harvard once told me "at this age, both schools are just really old." mwcob
 * Now we're really splitting hairs, perhaps. W&M has never claimed to be the oldest, why would WP? -Jcbarr 01:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Unless someone can site a source indicating why one ought to consider W&M the oldest American college, we should stick with calling it second-oldest. WWC 02:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * HMM...well, William & Mary has often in the past claimed itself to be the oldest. In fact, the original idea for the College goes back to the university first proposed at Henricus, which was charted in 1618.  In fact, the list of priorities of the College, displayed on a plaque on the Wren building itself, states that the College is the oldest institute of higher learning in the US, going back to the University of Henrico, and that it is second-oldest in operation only to Harvard.  While the question of being the oldest college if one defines college as a "liberal arts institute" or anything else beyond simply a seminary is an interesting proposition, the College today does recognize Harvard as the oldest.  So while I agree that Harvard should be considered the oldest, I simply wished to correct Jcbarr's mistake of saying that WaM has never claimed to be the oldest because it has.  Spwicy 05:36, 06 May, 2006 (UTC)

Merger Proposal
For the rationale behind the merger proposal, see the Talk page for List of presidents of the College of William and Mary. --TommyBoy 02:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The proposal is being discussed on the other article's Talk page. --TommyBoy 04:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

As an alternative to merging, I have replaced the List of Past Presidents in this article with a link to List of presidents of the College of William and Mary. --TommyBoy 17:15, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The "colleges" of William & Mary, including its junior colleges
Mentions of W&M's junior-college outreach seem to get removed from this page. Why not put on these facts?

1925 W&M established the Richmond division of the College of William and Mary (adopting the Richmond School of Social Work, founded 1917), later making it the Richmond Professional Institute of the College of William and Mary (1939). It separated in 1962 and later became Virginia Commonwealth University

1930 W&M established the two-year Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary, Norfolk College, which became independent in 1962 as Old Dominion University.

1960 "The General Assembly altered the College's name to "The Colleges of William and Mary," an administrative entity embracing the senior colleges at Williamsburg, Norfolk and Richmond, in addition to the new junior colleges, Christopher Newport in Newport News and Richard Bland in Petersburg." (http://www.wm.edu/vitalfacts/twentieth3.php)

1960 W&M established Christopher Newport College, a two-year branch in Newport News, later Christopher Newport University.

1960 W&M established Richard Bland College of The College of William & Mary, still a two-year junior college in Petursburg.


 * These should probably be put back on the page.


 * Added this information under the headline "The Colleges of William and Mary"

I put the section back for now. Fellow who removed it, would you like to discuss why here? WWC 12:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I ask again: would the anonymous folks who keep deleting this section please discuss their reasoning here? Will add back in in the next few days if no response. WWC 01:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Wren Building
The history of the Wren Building on the William and Mary page is entirely wrong. It was infact not built in 1931 as the page says, but it was merely restored to the form it was given after the 1705 fire. In fact the building was first erected between 1695-1699. So saying that the Wren Building was built in 1930 is completely wrong. Also, the section does not even mention at all that the Wren burned three times: 1705, 1859 and 1862. The building's exterior remianed after each burning and the vast majority of the bricks used on the exterior today are original to the building.

-- Actually, the history does not appear to be entirely wrong. Historic preservationists debate the meanings of the terms that describe trying to make something that exists look more like something that existed in the past, and these are the general senses they have come up with (quotations from the Secretary of the Interior's Standards (http://www.cr.nps.gov/local-law/arch_stnds_10.htm)):

"Restoration is defined as the act or process of accurately depicting the form, features, and character of a property as it appeared at a particular period of time by means of the removal of features from other periods in its history and reconstruction of missing features from the restoration period."

"Reconstruction is defined as the act or process of depicting, by means of new construction, the form, features, and detailing of a non-surviving site, landscape, building, structure, or object for the purpose of replicating its appearance at a specific period of time and in its historic location" The Governor's Palace at Williamsburg is a complete recreation of 1927-1934 designed by Perry, Shaw & Hepburn. There had been a building on that site earlier that looked something like the building there today, but it burned in 1781. Similary, the Capitol (same architects and period) is a reconstruction. The original was destroyed in 1747. The 1930s Capitol of today is demonstrably different from the original in some key aspects despite the architects' effort to reproduce an eighteenth-century building.

Today's Wren Building seems to be more than a reconstruction (because it is claimed to contain some amount of original wall fabric) but it clearly is not a restoration. No building on that site merely had elements removed and added to take it back to an earlier appearance: Perry, Shaw & Hepburn used the foundation and limited evidence of some facades (in the form of the Bodleian Plate, making their work largely conjectural) to design a reconstruction that also incorporated some of the wall fabric remaining from a building that had been remodeled in 1862 and itself likely contained materials from a 1705 predecessor.

"The Wren" can't have burned in 1705 because Christoper Wren's supposed remodeling did not take place until after the fire of that date.

Saying Wren's involvement is "perhaps apocryphal" or that "historians dispute" whether he designed the building now standing (or even the remodeling after 1705) is a bit like saying historians depate the Holocaust -- sure, you can find someone to take the other side, but he has a clear agenda and no credibility or evidence.

19th Century Funding
How was W&M funded after the Revolutionary War (when it severed formal ties with England) and prior to 1888?

Top Five Overlap schools
I know that S&P listed a "Top Five Overlap Schools" for W&M, but does anyone have any idea where S&P got this information? Is there any reason to believe this isn't second-hand information copied without verification? I presume this is from Fiske, but I don't have a copy to check.

Edits re: political economy pedagogy and Jefferson
1. Is there any source that "William and Mary developed the teaching of political economy"? I looked a little, but I did not find anything.

2. Mentioning only Jefferson's reform efforts and not his dissatisfaction with the results is not NPOV because it suggests to the reader that the results carried Jefferson's imprimatur. For sources, see, e.g., http://www.missq.msstate.edu/sssl/view.php?pid=18928, http://www.uvaguides.org/resources/historical/jefferson.asp, http://www.members.tripod.com/candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm.


 * The list of priorties on the Wren Building says that William and Mary was the first to teach political economy. See the image of the plaque on the Wren Building article page.--Bkwillwm 14:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks - I added that back in (with a link to the plaque). Cka3n

Jefferson's reform efforts & the University of Virginia
I wanted to solicit the opinion of others as to the history text regarding Jefferson's reform efforts.

The uncontroversial portion of the text is this: "Beginning with his 1778 Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge, Thomas Jefferson was involved with efforts to reform the College.  Jefferson guided the College to adopt the nation's first elective system of study and to introduce the first student-adjudicated Honor System."

However, although the reform efforts are certainly part of W&M's history, and although Jefferson's involvement is worthy of notation, "[m]entioning only Jefferson's reform efforts and not his dissatisfaction with the results is not NPOV because it suggests to the reader that the results carried Jefferson's imprimatur. For sources, see, e.g., http://www.missq.msstate.edu/sssl/view.php?pid=18928, http://www.uvaguides.org/resources/historical/jefferson.asp, http://www.members.tripod.com/candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm."

Vaoverland confirmed the underlying facts, adding "as a biographer notes, 'Jefferson would one day sharply criticize William and Mary, and eventually he designed, built, and administered the University of Virginia in open opposition to his alma mater.'"

Cka3n 01:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually I added the "as a biographer notes" sentence and the Willard Sterne Randall reference. I thought it would go better as a direct quote from a biographer than as a simple assertion. In any case, I agree completely that it is not neutral to invoke Jefferson's famous name in connection with William and Mary without at least indicating "the rest of the story." Dpbsmith (talk) 14:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Since the revisions are continuing, I thought it might be better to move the text here until we can find a stable version.


 * Sorry, I didn't understand what you'd done. There is a notable lack of edit comments in many of the recent edits... I just tried pushing down the entire "But" comment into a footnote. Let's see if that is a satisfactory compromise. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:39, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

History and milestones
William and Mary is the oldest university in the American South. The College was the first to teach Political Economy; Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations was a required textbook. In 1781, William and Mary became the first college in America to become a university by uniting its law, medicine and arts faculties; it was also the first college to establish a chair of modern languages. Chemistry was taught beginning in the nineteenth century; alumnus and future MIT founder William Barton Rogers served as the College's Professor of Natural Philosophy and Chemistry from 1828-1835.

Beginning with his 1778 Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge, Thomas Jefferson was involved with efforts to reform the College. Jefferson guided the College to adopt the nation's first elective system of study and to introduce the first student-adjudicated Honor System. Also at Jefferson's behest, the College appointed his friend and mentor George Wythe as the first Professor of Law in America in 1779. John Marshall, who would later go on to become Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, was one of Wythe's students. The College's Marshall-Wythe School of Law is the oldest law school in the United States and is named after these founding jurists.

Other version --

History and milestones
William and Mary is the oldest university in the American South. The College was the first to teach Political Economy; Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations was a required textbook. In 1781, William and Mary became the first college in America to become a university by uniting its law, medicine and arts faculties; it was also the first college to establish a chair of modern languages. Chemistry was taught beginning in the nineteenth century; alumnus and future MIT founder William Barton Rogers served as the College's Professor of Natural Philosophy and Chemistry from 1828-1835.

Beginning with his 1778 Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge, Thomas Jefferson was involved with efforts to reform the College. Jefferson guided the College to adopt the nation's first elective system of study and to introduce the first student-adjudicated Honor System. But, as a biographer notes, "Jefferson would one day sharply criticize William and Mary, and eventually he designed, built, and administered the University of Virginia in open opposition to his alma mater."

Also at Jefferson's behest, the College appointed his friend and mentor George Wythe as the first Professor of Law in America in 1779. John Marshall, who would later go on to become Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, was one of Wythe's students. The College's Marshall-Wythe School of Law is the oldest law school in the United States and is named after these founding jurists.

Cka3n 18:28, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Second Oldest University in the American South
Wouldn't it be either "Oldest University in the American South" or "Second Oldest University in America"? Erechtheus 23:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * and the question is... ? Vaoverland 01:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. For a short period of time I had mistakenly had it reading "second oldest university in the American South" but I fixed it pretty promptly.


 * The straightforward, factual way to express William and Mary's status is to call it the second oldest institution of higher learning in the United States. This avoids all sorts of possible minefields regarding the meaning of the words "college," "University," and "America." But there's no major problem with the way William and Mary states it: "America's second-oldest college."


 * I don't like the boosterish business of avoiding the word "second" by creating an artificial category within which the college is first. And personally, I think "second-oldest in the United States" is a lot stronger than "oldest in the American South." Dpbsmith (talk) 02:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see anything wrong with this "oldest...American South" construct if the institution is very attached to and identified with the subdivision. I don't think that really applies to W&M, though. Does anybody really think of W&M as a distinctly southern institution? I spent a couple of years there, and it doesn't seem to fit to me. I guess I'm taking the long way around of saying good call. Erechtheus 01:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Admissions edits
Regarding the recent edits, the information regarding matriculation rate was deleted without explanation. As it is sourced, it has been reinstated. Although I would certainly invite other opinions, I think the matriculation information is relevant -- just off-hand, I would note that it follows the immediately prior claims that most W&M applicants are not offered admission and that most W&M applicants also apply to US News Top 25 universities. Also, I am considering adding matriculation data for the "overlap" schools, where W&M leads Vanderbilt.

The claim that W&M is the most selective public university in Virginia has been removed. W&M is has a ~6% lower admissions rate than U-Va, but it has a higher admissions rate than, e.g., Washington & Lee (not a public school in Va, but a Virginia college and, for a reasonable number of in-state high school students, a W&M peer school). Moreover, W&M has a higher admissions rate than Duke, Georgetown, and Cornell (which schools, in addition to U-Va and Vanderbilt, are apparently W&M's "overlap" schools) (data from nces.ed.gov). To me, and I apologize if I am reading things wrong, the inclusion of the admissions rate information seems mostly designed both as a slight to in-state U-Va (certainly a fun game with an easy target, but perhaps better suited for other fora) and to include W&M in a group with schools like Duke, et al.

My concern here is particularly highlighted because there have been consistent deletions or changes recently (e.g., Jefferson's legacy, these changes) which serves to booster W&M's image but which are not explained parenthetically or here on the talk page.

Cka3n 20:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Greek edit
I removed Pi Kappa Alpha from the list of greek organizations, because they got kicked off campus and their charter revoked this past semester.

No. The Gamma Chapter of Pi Kappa Alpha at William and Mary retains its charter. You are correct, however, in stating that there is no on campus lodging (for this year at least).

Washington Monthly
I removed the reference to the Washington Monthly ranking. First, there are many, many college rankings, and I am not sure why the Washington Monthly rankings in particular are worthy or encyclopedic notation, especially given their regional scope. Second, the Washington Monthly rankings are clearly inconsistent with the general understanding (e.g., South Carolina State > Harvard), so any reference to the rankings seems to need context. As the context keeps getting edited away, it appears that the reference to the WM rankings is most likely boosterism (and, to boot, boosterism in the form of a slight to in-state UVa). Cka3n 21:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

selectivity
"For the 2005-06 academic year, 31.0% of applicants were admitted to William and Mary, ahead of peers University of Virginia (37.7%) and Vanderbilt University (35.3%) but behind Georgetown University (21.5%), Duke University (21%), and Cornell University (27.1%). Of those admitted to the 2005 enrolling class, 40.9% matriculated at William and Mary, a yield that leads Vanderbilt's (39.4%) but trails those of the University of Virginia (52.8%), Georgetown University (47.2%), Cornell University (46.5%) and Duke University (43.2%)."

This needs to be reworded to remove subjective/qualitative language. Admitting fewer students does not place W&M "ahead" of UVa. --Orang55 04:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes it does.


 * Why would we need to delete this discussion from the Talk page? Cka3n 05:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Commencement Speakers
Sources: Earl Greg Swem Special Collections University Archive Commencement Speakers Roclar 13:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)roclar

Notable Professors: Maximilian de Gaynesford
I removed him from the list of notable professors, given that he is now at the University of Reading.

Notable Professors: Criteria?
It seems there are no criteria for what professors are deemed "notable," I propose that something must be written in about them, such as an award or honor, besides their title at the college. Also, there seems to be a male bias in the professors that are chosen. I removed sam sadler, because he is neither a professor nor notable.

No basis/relevance

"accessible professors"?
The article currently states that W&M is distinguished from larger research universities by its "small university environment, accessible professors and undergraduate enrollment of 5,635". It seems to me that the first and the third items are very similar and could be combined (e.g., "small university environment, with only 5,635 undergraduates enrolled"). In any case, I have no doubt that W&M's small size does in fact distinguish it from larger universities.

However, is there any source for the claim that W&M is distinguished from larger research universities by its "accessible professors"? Google only turned up the wiki text, and the language seems to be the sort of language that populates promotional brochures.

I am going to revise as noted in my first paragraph. If there is a source, please feel free to revert.

Cka3n 23:19, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Feeder colleges
I have some concerns about the Feeder College section. The current text reads:"Similarly, in the early fall of 2003, The Wall Street Journal published the results of a survey of the alma maters of entering students at the nation's Top 5 professional programs (e.g., Yale Law School, Harvard Business School and Johns Hopkins Medical School). William and Mary placed second among Virginia's state public universities and seventh among all public universities [31] for elite graduate placement. The The Wall Street Journal sometimes refers to William and Mary and similar institutions as 'feeder' colleges, in recognition of their success at feeding their graduates to Top 5 professional programs."

My concerns:

 This is rather outdated article.  The linked document does not refer to "the nation's Top 5 professional programs" or to any of the programs cited in our text. (Nor does the related top 50 ranking .)  Because of the rankings of West Point and the Naval Academy, I believe the text should read "amoung all state-supported universities," not "among all public universities."  The article is a ranking of schools, not of universities (e.g., it includes Williams).  I don't see any evidence that the WSJ "sometimes refers to William and Mary and similar institutions as 'feeder' colleges." Obviously, there is the reference in this article, but have they ever otherwise used to the term to refer to W&M?  Also, saying that the WSJ refers to W&M and similar institutions as "feeder" colleges b/c of their placement success needs to be in context. Who, exactly, does the WSJ refer to as a feeder college? W&M is ranked #82 overall. That is a long way from #1 Harvard and #2 Yale. Moreover, the ranking list that includes W&M also includes Stony Brook (SUNY), Georgia Tech, Florida A&M University, Concord College (W.Va.), and Univ. of Md., Eastern Shore. Without further evidence regarding the WSJ's use of the term "feeder" college vis-a-vis W&M, it would be hard to argue that W&M is a feeder college and those others are not. My suggestions:

 Delete the passage.  If not, replace with:"In the early fall of 2003, The Wall Street Journal published the results of a survey of the alma maters of entering students at the nation's elite business, medical and law schools. William and Mary placed 82nd overall, 2nd among Virginia's public universities, and 7th seventh among all state-supported universities for elite graduate placement."

Cka3n 22:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

First University?
The introduction - "Although considered one of the first universities in America (if not the first)," - conflicts with the History and Milestones section - "In 1781, William and Mary became the first college in America to become a university". I know the second cites a W&M page. Is there any reason to doubt this (as per the first quote), or should both quotes be in accordance with the W&M page? Cka3n 22:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Best small public university
The statement "It is often ranked as the best small public university in the nation." is not supported by the cited link. Accordingly, we can either change the statement to match the link, i.e., delete "often ranked as" (trusting W&M's evaluation of itself) or we can delete this phrase and rely upon the ample accolades included within the article itself.

Cka3n 22:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Drunk Soldiers
Is there any evidence that the 5th Pennsylvania Cavalry soldiers who set fire to the College Building were actually drunk? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gnosticdogma (talk • contribs) 21:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC).