Talk:Colonization attempts by Poland

Courland colonization
First, please don't remove this section; the article on Courland colonization is much worse than this section (it should be expanded based on what we have here). Second, discussion of Courland colonization is valid here, as Courland was at that time a Polish dependency (and it is clear in the text it was mostly independent). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:10, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And please discuss first on talk, before you remove referenced information, and move the article. Tymek (talk) 18:12, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Then please expand Courland colonization and don't add it to "Colonies of Poland". Skäpperöd (talk) 18:31, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If you feel that article needs expansion, just devote some of your time and do it. Why are you telling me to expand it? Tymek (talk) 18:35, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not telling you, I don't even know who of your mailing list is using your account right now. Skäpperöd (talk) 18:54, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Please avoid personal attacks and keep on (content) subject. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 02:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No PA here, just facts. It is odd to discuss sth with a shared-password-account. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The colonies of Courland belong to the article about Courland colonization, it is not ok to redefine them as colonies of Poland and create a content fork under a wrong title. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * So seems like you have a problem. I do not have this problem though. Tymek (talk) 20:42, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was not moving, no consensus. GrooveDog FOREVER 03:11, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Colonies of Poland → Polish colonization plans — Relisted. @harej 15:07, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

[Poland never had any colonies. The article is about colonization plans. The colonies of Courland, listed here, were neither colonies of Poland nor of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, even when Courland herself was part of the PLC.] --Skäpperöd (talk) 18:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, in the act of secularization of Courland, it was clearly written that the Kettlers were obliged to pay homage to the Polish kings from all their lands. Tymek (talk) 18:31, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sources that Courland's colonies were colonies of Poland? Skäpperöd (talk) 18:54, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Since the Kettlers had to pay homage from all their lands, the overseas posessions were automatically included. It does not take a genius to understand it. Tymek (talk) 20:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Without sources, that is a WP:SYNTH. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:59, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I think we should keep the estabilished titles for such articles. Discussion of Courland colonization as part of Polish colonization plans can be found in many places, for example here. PS. And here (this one is written by a professional historian, Dariusz Kołodziejczyk), here, here, here (see also this English pdf),, . --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 02:39, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: The above was ammended after my response  Skäpperöd (talk) 18:13, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no "established title" for this article, the article was just created and named "Colonies of Poland" by you, and this title does not fit per WP:SYNTH. The colonies of Courland were not colonies of Poland, regardless of whether Courland was part of the PLC or not. You are talking of "Polish colonization plans" yourself, what is the trouble to move it to that title? Poland never had any colonies, this article is about plans. And a headline in a website that mentions Courland's colonies does not prove that these colonies were colonies of Poland. If they were, they should be adressed as such in literature, and they are not. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:07, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Poland had no colonies? I always thought it did in Ruthenia and Russia... 76.66.197.30 (talk) 03:43, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The term colony is not applicable in such a context (just like Poland was not a colony of Russia in the 19th century or Germany during WWII...). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:54, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is this relisted? There was no consensus for the move last time, just a month ago. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Support. The article discusses the various plans that were considered.  Given that and the fact that Poland never had colonies, the current name is clearly wrong and needs changing. Vegaswikian (talk)


 * Oppose. Per my argument above, also, per WP:NC - be precise only when necessary. We don't need to be precise here. If "colonies of Poland" would simply redirect to "proposed colonies of Poland", why bother? Hardly anybody would type "proposed" when googling/wiki-looking for the subject anyway. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:47, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

SYNTH concern: Courland's colonies were not "colonies of Poland"
Whether or not Courland was part of the PLC, Courland's colonies were not "colonies of Poland", neither were they colonies of the PLC. The section about Courland's colonies belongs to the article Courland colonization, not here. Skäpperöd (talk) 05:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, after a proper merge, this section could be shortened. But as I pointed out above, there are sources which discuss Courland colonization in the context of PLC, so it's hardly a SYNTH issue. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:32, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Websites discussing "Courland colonization in the context of PLC" are not sources that Courland's colonies were colonies of Poland. That Courland was part of the PLC is not disputed. Skäpperöd (talk) 18:13, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The article does say - just like some of the sources - that colonies of a vassal can be seen colonies of the sovereign. That said, the article makes it clear that PLC itself cared little for the colonies, and they were primarily Courland initiative. Still, they are discussed in that context and hence should be discussed in this article. I don't see any problems with that. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 05:02, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

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