Talk:Colorado Right to Life

YouTube sources
Are there any sourced for this content that isn't from YouTube? If we can meet standard sourcing and verification policies, then this content should be fine. But as it was, I've moved it here. Please feel free to discuss further, or work on sourcing. Thanks!-Andrew c [talk] 19:26, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * At the 2008 Democrat National Convention, held in August in Denver, activists from CRTL and several other pro-life organizations unfurled a 666-ft. tall protest sign on Golden's North Table Mountain, near Denver. Made from dozens of white and yellow sheets, it spelled out the message, "DNC" (upright) and "Destroys uNborn Children," (sideways). It was visible from many points in Denver, including downtown where the convention was being held. It was entered to compete for the Guinness World Records as the world's largest protest sign.


 * Also at the same time as the DNC, American Right to Life and Colorado Right to Life brought several pro-life Black leaders to Colorado for "Power in the Park" at Martin Luther King Jr. Park, immediately next to the new regional Planned Parenthood abortion center. Guests included Dr. Alan Keyes, Rev. Clenard Childress, and Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson.

Furthermore, source [1] list "America Right to Life" not CRtL, so it would be off topic in this article anyway.-Andrew c [talk] 22:18, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Andrew, thank you for checking for accuracy, but the first Youtube citation is a recording of an actual news broadcast, so there should be no question of its authenticity or independence as a source. It's simply in video form, and hosted on Youtube for convenience. The second item is sourced elsewhere, and I've added two more citations, including one from a widely recognized and respected major newsmagazine with nationwide circulation. I'll add a note that both CRTL and American Right to Life hosted Power in the Park.Rensslaer c [talk] 18:26, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You did not address my second point. The news story does not mention CRtL, and in fact states it is a different organization entirely. Furthermore, youtube cannot be used for a source generally speaking. There are ways to cite news report that don't require linking to youtube. That said, the one valid source you have provided, worldmag.com, doesn't even mention CRtL. Seriously. The other source you added has such colorful words like The killing center, dubbed Auschwitz, by local opponents of the racist organization. I'm embarrassed for them (and possibly you if you believe this sort of citation is reliable and verifiable under our policies). I'm not disputing that these things happened. It's important that we don't do original research, and push minor points. If independent, reliable sources didn't cover these events, then what business do we have reporting on them in an encyclopedia article.-Andrew c [talk] 01:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

The Worldmag article mentions a black pro-life event at Martin Luther King Jr. Park, and says it's right next door to the abortion center. That information alone should be sufficient to establish it's talking about the same event referenced.

As for American Right to Life, it was founded by Colorado Right to Life, and should have its own article on Wikipedia, it just doesn't yet. Any efforts by ARTL in Colorado are generally and by definition done through their affiliate, Colorado Right to Life, though they use the bigger name -- American Right to Life -- to connote that it's an event with national significance.

I added more citations to try to please you -- the one citation indicates the event happened, the other citation indicates more detail on what the event was, and the video provides on-the-spot verification of what was said.

Do you have a reference that Youtube is not considered valid for any reason? I read through the rules yesterday and I certainly did not see that. Youtube is a video reference service where you can see stuff that actually happened, and as far as I know it's the only streamable place where you can still view the 9News media coverage. If I need to cite a news source for verification, why not cite their actual streamable video, no matter the source? You're not suggesting it's faked, surely.Rensslaer (talk) 20:04, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Please see WP:NOR. If Worldmag doesn't mention CRtL, we can't use it in this article. You are creating a novel synthesis of sources, which is forbidden. There is nothing currently in this article that says CRtL founded ARtL. We say Brian Rohrbough is the former president of Colorado Right to Life, and co-founder of American Right to Life,. The ARtL webpage doesn't say anything about it either . Seems like they are two different organizations. I don't see how if an event is credited to ARtL, how it is relevant on the CRtL page. I don't get the connection, and the cited sources don't explain it either. I'd like to say, while I appreciate you are trying to please me, this shouldn't be about what I think, but instead what is inline with basic wikipedia policies. If you want to seek a 3rd opinion, I'd clearly welcome that. But I believe the sourcing is very sketchy, and we should do better, in terms of what is verifiable and reliable under wikipedia policy. See WP:3O or WP:RSN for venues to seek additional input.


 * My reference regarding YouTube is twofold (but see also this). First, see CS and Copyrights. Someone cannot legally record something they see on TV and upload it themselves to YouTube, without violating the original copyright. We do not allow linking to copyright violations such as this. Second, Youtube is considered WP:SPS, as these are cases of random users uploading content. But overall, keep in mind WP:NOR. Wikipedia is not in the business of publishing things for the first time, or repeating self-published content. Just because something happened does not mean it is encyclopedic or verifiable under our editorial standards. I know we have a lot of policy and guideline pages, and things can be quite confusing. I'd be glad to try to help you as much as I can. If you have specific questions or concerns, I'd like to help, or at least try to point you to other pages if possible. -Andrew c [talk] 20:50, 12 November 2009 (UTC)