Talk:Columba

relations
Columba's family is written as "of the MacLochlainn house", in contrast to every article I've ever seen saying Columba was from the Cenel Conaill, Jeez, John McLaughlin gone on a new conspiracy teory about the McLoughlins? lol. I'm converting it to Cenel Conaill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.201.2 (talk) 16:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Writings
I am looking for information regarding the writings of Columba. All the sites i have searched thus far only give me a biography of his life. However, i am working on an assignment for my Latin class for which i need to know about his works. Can anyone help me?

Copyright
My mother tells me that Colmcille was the cause of the first copyright laws.. anyone got any information on this?


 * I think she's probably refering to the dispute over the psalter.

There was no such idea as copyright - much less a law about it - until centuries later.

Yes you are correct the term copyright was never in use until centuries later, but by traition the dispute over the psalter was in effect a copyright ruling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.201.2 (talk) 16:31, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Masculine/Feminine?
First, 'Columba' is not Latinised - it's Latin. To Latinise is to make a foreign word look like Latin, as opposed to translating it with a Latin word. Example: The Hebrew name "Moishe" means "Leader". The Latin for Leader is "Dux"; but it's not 'Dux' who goes to Pharoah and says, "Let my people go!" - it's "Moses", which is the Latinised form of "Moishe" as opposed to a Latin translation.

Second, you're right. A male dove or pigeon is a "columbus" and a female dove is a "columba". But it's the female dove, not the male, who represents peace and the spirit of G-d, and all that; so, since St. Colmcille is a "Dove of the Church" (which is the Bride of Christ and, thus, female), his Latin name is feminine instead of masculine.

Third, 'Calum' is the Gaidhlig form of his name, but he was born and raised in Ireland; and his complete name was not 'Calum' or, anns a' Ghaeilige (Irish), 'Colm'/'Colum', but "Colmcille".

As it happens, Colm/Colum/Calum traces to the same Proto-Indo-European root as 'columb(us/-a)', thus Columba is not a Latinisation but a translation of the "Colm" part of "Colmcille".

Colm = dove, pigeon; cill = church, holy place, monastery - as in Cill Dara (anns a' Bhearla, "Kildare" - which is an Anglicism of Cill Dara, just as "Kathleen" is an Anglicism of "Caitlin").


 * Considering Columba was a male.. why is his 'Latinized' name Columb-a instead of Columb-us .. as it would be. *shrugs*


 * 'Columba' is the Latin for 'dove' and is a feminine noun.


 * Maybe some study of Gaelic would be in order. His name was Calum. If in Latin he was being called "Dove of the Church" that's not a personal name and does not need to be masculine. In any case a number of male names in Gaelic today end in -a: Màta, Anndra being notable.

Saint Columb the man and Saint Columb the woman
There were more than one Saint Columba. The most famous one is the Irishman who settled at Iona in Scotland, but there are at least three female saints who bear the same name; (1.) Saint Columba (the Virgin) originally from Ireland but has dedications in Cornwall, (2.) Saint Columba of Sens who was originally fron Spain but has dedications in France and another (3.) Saint Columba of Spain. Although there are three differnt people their legends are curiously similar.

Talskiddy 20:29, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Colmcille or Columba?
or Colmchille? Would any kind Gaelic speaker care to add a phonetic spelling? Nick Barnett (talk) 17:03, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

"Colmcille" is, far and away, the name by which he is known in Ireland - in either official language; "Columba" is the name by which he is best known in Scotland, where he is buried.

There is no evidence that "Colm" is a Gaelicism of Latin but the evidence is that they share a common Indo-European ancestor. The early Celtic and Italic languages were very close - especially Gaulish and Latin, which is why the latter so easily overtook the former after the Roman conquest of Gaul.

Sensible people don't give two figs what he is called in English. Let them get their own saints instead of culturally misappropriating Irish ones.


 * I find it odd that he is under the name 'Columba' here. Throughout Ireland he is known as Colmcille, and this is reflected in the amount of GAA clubs so named. Colmcille is the most common version in English in Ireland, with the final vowel pronounced like an 'e' rather than an 'a' as is the case in the Irish pronunciation. Until recently I thought Columba was either a spaceshuttle or a variant of a guy who takes credit for discovering America. The version used here seems to be the British version, and it is certainly the case that in Ireland where an Anglican and Catholic church are in the one town, the former uses Columba and the latter Colmcille. Ceannanas Mór/ Kells in Meath, where Colmcille resided, is a case in point. A Google Irish search of 'Colmcille' has 44000 results, all of which refer to the Saint. A Google Irish pages search of 'Columba' has 66000 results, the first two of which are Columba Press and Columba Global Systems. The third directs to a website called www.colmcille.ie. The majority of the others have little or no connection to Colmcille. A further Google search of 'Columcille' adds 10,000 more results, and other variants on Colm Cille increase this figure greatly. And as a writer above points out there were very many other Columbas. I think he should be on Wikipedia by the name he is best known by in Ireland. And that is Colmcille. El Gringo 04:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Columba is the Latin name, and by far the most common English one. His Old Irish name is Colum Cille, the "Dove of the Church". The name itself is actually a Gaelicization of a Latin word, meaning "dove", which some suggest was the nickname given to him by St. Uinniau, his teacher (the guy would developed into St. Ninian and St. Finnian). Columba is hence no "British" conspiracy, and in fact is the name he is almost always referred to as in Irish historiography. Other thing, I'd reject the idea that Irish usage takes precedence, as in Scotland he is commonly regarded as the founder of Scottish christianity, and in many ways, the father of the Scottish nation. Having said that, I wouldn't be against support moving the page to Colum Cille (although I would be against Colm Cille). - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 11:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Colmcille is by far the most common used name in both discussion and the media.--Theosony (talk) 19:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm a Meathman and live next to Kells/Ceanannas Mór and everybody here knows him as Colmcille; I googled Colmcille and it led to this page entitled Columba. This sounds like a space shuttle or the fella who discovered America after Saint Brendan. 86.44.63.69 (talk) 20:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * He is much better known as Colmcille. I've never heard anyone in person describe him as Columba.
 * 'Sources (mostly from official regional/tourism and local business sites). If 'Columba' is ever mentioned, it is secondary. Just search Google.
 * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
 * Filastin (talk) 22:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Reliable?
Is all this information facts or legends?-Agoodperson


 * As close to the facts as anything like this can be. It's based on a Life written less than a century after Columba's death, and possibly within the lifetime of people who had met Columba. Adomnán may also have used parts of Cumméne's Life, and Cumméne would certainly have met many people who had known Columba. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Reintroduced Christianity?
I am not an expert in this area, so I am reluctant to intervene; but I suspect the statement that Columba and his Gaelic monks 'reintroduced' Christianity to Scotland is untrue for the simple reason that it had never completely gone away since the earlier mission of Ninian in the south of the country. Were the Strathclyde Britons and the Dalriada Scots-before the foundation of Iona- not already Christian to some degree or other? I always understood Columba's mission to be specifically aimed at the northern Picts, translated in the popular imagination to the conversion of Scotland in general. Rcpaterson 07:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I share your misgivings and Barbara Yorke's recent Conversion of Britain shares them too. Even if we limit ourselves to Pictland, Columba's retrospective importance owes rather a lot to his kinsmen. Mo Luóc of Lismore was his contemporary, and Uinniau (assuming that he is Finnbarr/Finnian/Ninian) was his teacher. Even Palladius is, rightly or wrongly, associated with Pictish foundations. Angus McLellan (Talk) 09:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Columba's legacy depends on the Picts. The Picts made him their apostle in their own tradition. They believed that Columba converted them. Since Uinniau/Ninian was probably Columba's teacher, one can speak of the Ninian-Columban mission. However, the idea that conversion of one or two great men is probably the weakest one. Christianity in southern Scotland predates both men. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 14:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Columba
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards,  Durova  17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Columba or Saint Columba
This page is currently named Columba. I notice that this in inconsistent with the naming of other Saints on wikipedia. For example Saint Kentigern, Saint Patrick, Saint Ninian, Saint Andrew, etc.

I suggest moving this page to Saint Columba.


 * Actually, naming conventions on WP denote that for general use, titles like "saint" are left out of the article title. See WP:NCWC.  Patrick is a notable exception, as is Nicholas.  Most saints are listed as "name" with "saint" in the article; or as "name of place" with saint or other titles in the article.  Pastordavid 19:55, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Arthur?
Does the fact that the name "Arthur" is used in a document that elsewhere mentions Columba really have significance to this coverage of Columba? SOmeone's putting out dots that have littel connection.

Removed ref to British Columbia
There is absolutely no connexion between Columba and British Columbia. "Columbia" is a feminised form of "Columbus" - as in "District of Columbia" (which wasn't named after St. Columba, either).

Neither was the province named after the river, nor the river named after the ship but the whole area which is now the Lower mainland, southern interior of BC, and adjacent parts of Montana, Idaho, Oregon, and Washington were all called "Columbia" - after Christopher Columbus. The river was called "Columbia River" because it was the principal river of the Columbia Country.

Later, the United States and the United Kingdom agreed to split their Anglo-American condominium of the Columbia Country along the 49th parallel. The Vancouver Island colony, the New Caledonia colony (now, northern BC), and the northern section of the Columbia Country eventually got amalgamated (1858) into the Crown Colony of British Columbia - "British", said Queen Victoria, "because Americans, too, call their country "Columbia", at least in poetry".


 * I removed this paragraph from the Lasting legacy section:


 * He indirectly gave his name to the Canadian province British Columbia. The Columbia River, for which the province is named, got its name from the ship Columbia Rediviva, named after Columba.


 * Columbia was such a common name for the place that Columbus discovered that unless someone has a citation for the ship being named for the saint, this is speculation. I note that a similar assertion has been removed from the article about the ship. —crism (talk) 05:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Categories
Just put back the Categories that Cavila deleted. Can you explain here why they are wrong before you delete them again?filceolaire (talk) 20:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Looking at it again I find I agree with you. Medieval Saint is a better description than Roman Catholic saint. Categories left as Cavila's edit filceolaire (talk) 20:08, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Burial place
Is Colmcille buried on Iona or Downpatrick? On the St. Brigid of Kildare page and Saint Patrick pages, it states he lies alongside them in Downpatrick, as does the St. Patrick Center (official tourism office) in the area..?Filastin (talk) 22:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

RfC: Saint's name
In relation to the Colmcille / Columba name issue, would be be possible to get comment? It has been discussed above, and most are supportive of changing the name from Columba to the wider-known name, Colmcille. Thanks! Filastin (talk) 23:02, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there is not much to add to the above discussion. In the UK he is known as Columba, in Ireland as Columcille. As far as I am aware its usually Columba in the US as well. I tried a Google search for Australia, with the same result. Frustrating to Irish folks no doubt, but that's life. Ben  Mac  Dui  09:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. I checked a handful of sources (Stenton, Campbell, Kirby, Colgrave) and in all of them he is indexed as Columba.  The only one to mention an alternative name in the index is Colgrave, who gives "Columcelli" as an alternative name in the index of his edition of Bede.  I think the article should reflect the usual name in reliable secondary sources. Mike Christie (talk) 13:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with Mike in this case, we should probably just follow what is most commonly used in secondary sources that gives us a nice ball park of what name we should use. --Sin Harvest (talk) 03:36, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

"Columba" is used in Irish works too: volume 1 of the RIA history (ed. Ó Cróinín) has him under "Columba", and the sub-title of Máire Herbert's Iona, Kells and Derry: The History and Hagiography of the Monastic Family of Columba speaks for itself. There has been no evidence been advanced to show that "Colmcille" is common, let alone more common than "Columba", in English-language sources. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

The foundation of any article is its sources. It is clear that Columba is the preferred name in the substantive material that has been used to create this article. AtSwimTwoBirds (talk) 02:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * He's still known as Colmcille in all the churches named after him near me - including in Kells, County Meath. He is also known as Colmcille in all the GAA clubs named after him, e.g. Gaeil Colmcille, also in Kells. I have yet to hear an Irish person refer to Colmcille as "Columba", which sounds like a spaceship or the guy who discovered America after Saint Breandán. 86.44.62.128 (talk) 21:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Mariners' Church (Maritime Museum) has a side chapel called after Columba. Dedicated to those lost at sea. There are paintings and memorabilia of the Irish ships lost in WWII - ClemMcGann (talk) 23:11, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

"Unreferenced trivia"
If you want to know more about Into the Mist, which made a brief appearance before reversion see here. Apparently " Re-casting the popular character of Columba as a villain... was always going to be controversial". Ben  Mac  Dui  10:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Bogus Latin
The caption under the picture, "Iustus unus magis res rei," is just a meaningless jumble. The first two words, "iustus unus," are certainly a medieval topic of concern, and you can find them all over Christian texts; the rest of it is just agrammatical babbling, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.180.49.44 (talk) 09:59, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it turned out to be a piece of vandalism which had gone unnoticed for eight months. Iblardi (talk) 10:36, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Greetings, and a good game to you all. I am the one who planted this little joke. The Latin, "Iustus unus magis res rei", is goggle translation of "Just one more thing", which is the catchphrase of the television detective Columbo. I was quite surprised that it took so long to be picked up. This round was well played, but I feel I must warn you, for I have other little jokes out there, and there may very well be more to come... Yours, Y —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.211.197.5 (talk) 00:04, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Why is this article not named Colmcille?
I'm Irish and everybody without exception here knows him as Colmcille. I never expected he'd be under a name other than Colmcille so this article name is, to say the least, very surprising! 86.45.56.77 (talk) 19:44, 14 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Your opening statement is a bit far fetched - i'm from the island as well and i've heard Columba used many many times. His common name in English is Columba and that is what applies. As the linked to article says: Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it instead uses the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. In this case its Columba. Mabuska (talk) 12:32, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Iceland Landnamabok
St Columba/Colmcille is mentioned in the Icelandic book of settlement 'The Landnamabok'. A settler named Orlygr and his kinsmen are Christian and established a monastery to St Columba at Kjalarnes near Mount Esja.

Icelandic Nobel laureate Halldór Laxness wrote 'Independant People' in which the evil Kolumkilli (St Columba) has placed a curse on the land. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hugh111111 (talk • contribs) 03:34, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Apostle of the Picts - Not so
Columba was an O' Neil and could not, or did not deign to, speak the same language as the Picts and could only converse with the Gaelic speaking Scots of Dál Riada and his travels away from this area were few and infrequent.

'...Columba is not prtrayed by any of his biographers as having received a call from God to cross the sea to Pictland and evangelise its heathen inhabitants.' Ian Bradley, Columba Pilgrom and Penitent, Wild Goose Publications 1996.

Dr Reeves, who translated Adamnan’s Life of S Columba, writes that ‘The Life of St Comgall represents St Columba as only one of the agents on this occasion’, contradicting Adamnan’s claim that Columba was the leader of the mission. (Rev. William Reeves, D.D, Vita S. Comgalli, cap.44 and Archibald B Scott, The Pictish Nation: It’s People and its Church, Foulis, 1918 p235 ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.23.176 (talk) 14:39, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Why not add the digital copy of Schaffhausen's precious manuscript?
The Vita from Schaffhausen is available in digitalised form at the website www.e-codices.ch. http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/de/preview/sbs/0001 or another view of the site. Greetings from Schaffhausen, Oliver (The town's new head librarian. Don't have an acocunt yet but will). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.245.121.26 (talk) 10:51, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 12:05, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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His significance
Didn't Iona Abbey later (after his death) send out missionaries all over Europe who re-converted parts of France, Italy, etc. to Christianity? This is my vague recollection of history I learned, but it could be wrong. If right, this is a significant part of his legacy that is not mentioned in the article, and should be. Sullidav (talk) 12:56, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Bizarre naming inconsistency
This article has one of the strangest compromises I've seen on Wikipedia. The Irish want him named Colmcille and everyone else wants him named Columba, so the article is titled Columba, but throughout the article he is called Colmcille most of the time and Columba other times. Most of the References and almost all of the Sources and Further Reading refer to him as Columba.

I tried Googling (in quotes, to do phrase searches) "St Columba", "Saint Columba", "St Colmcille", "Saint Colmcille", "St Columcille", and "Saint Columcille". The top returns were "St Columba" with a whopping 2,290,000 pages, "Saint Columba" with 227,000, and "St Colmcille" with 143,000. A Google NGRAM search shows that in recent years, St Columba has been used almost 30 times more in books written in English than St Colmcille. Interestingly, St Colmcille didn't appear in books at all before 1930 and has only been used consistently in the past 40 years.

With due respect to the Irish, this unaligned reader thinks the solution is to acknowledge in the article lede that he is called Colmcille throughout Ireland, but to refer to him consistently as Columba. Jbening (talk) 12:47, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
 * It does seem reasonable that the Irish subsection of the Legacy section should use the name commonly used in Ireland, especially because it includes lots of institutions that are explicitly named "X Colmcille Y", and clearly can't renamed for the article. The different usage in this section does need explained though so I've added an introductory sentence to this section. The Irish naming is also sufficiently widely used in the English Language that it should be in the opening sentence, and not just tied to Ireland, as it's important from a usability perspective that people looking for "Colmcille" know straight away that they are in the right place. JimmyGuano (talk) 09:40, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It's 'Cuillaine", which Cu Chullaine, which is the Sun God Lugh and also Gawain, also associated with the Sun and light of Christ which is reborn after the winter solstice. It's all ancient names to do with the Sun god. Saint Cullun. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.38.189.222 (talk) 23:09, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Vita Columbae
The content in the section on the Vita Columbae is mostly about the book itself, rather than Columba as a person, who is supposed to be the subject of this article. The book is clearly highly notable and article-worthy in itself as a historic document. Would this section be better split off into a separate Vita Columbae article, with the "Other early sources of Columba's life" renamed simply "Sources"? (Despite being named "Other sources..." the very first thing this section mentions is Vita Columbae) JimmyGuano (talk) 07:17, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Scotland
The text says "The island of Iona was made over to him by his kinsman Conall mac Comgaill King of Dál Riata," There is no evidence that Iona was under Dal Riatan control at this date. I accept that the issue is moot - ie it cannot be asserted definitively either way - although for me the very clear balance of probability is that Iona - and Mull - was still Pictish at this stage. The text should reflect the ambivalence of the claims. Freuchie (talk) 20:51, 6 August 2023 (UTC)