Talk:Columbia University/Archive 5

On listing affiliates as if they were part of the University.
Barnard College is listed in the undergraduate schools section as of it were a school of Columbia, when in fact it is an affiliate. Upon editing this, one of the page administrators reverted my edit saying, correctly, that Teachers College is also an affiliate. Therefore both Barnard and Teachers College should be referenced as Columbia affiliates. This is shown in the Columbia website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RoblesXIV (talk • contribs) 21:56, 4 November 2018 (UTC)


 * As with most of the arguments concerning this article, I doubt if anybody outside of Morningside Heights gives a damn. I just think we should be consistent in how we refer to affiliates, and not include some and exclude others. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:27, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

They both receive Columbia degrees - therefore, they are part of the University. The University President, Lee Bollinger, signs the diplomas. Malik Shabazz is right, nobody outside of Morningside Heights gives a damn. If Barnard and TC people want to call themselves Columbia alumni (which they are, they can join the Columbia Alumni Association) so be it. Good grief people, just give it a rest!2601:192:4C80:1BDD:CD43:1150:4E09:6A37 (talk) 15:31, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, no. Barnard students are not Columbia alumni - they are Barnard alumni! A degree from Columbia is a really big deal and I think Columbia students feel like Barnard students are diminishing their achievement when they claim they too are "Columbia grads". Barnard grads can say they graduated from Columbia, but the moment it is revealed they attended Barnard they will be seen as imposters. It's better to say you graduated from Barnard than to be exposed for claiming you attended Columbia.Bluemu314 (talk) 01:54, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

The Columbia University handbook specifically states that the bachelor's degrees conferred upon by the Columbia University Board of Trustees to Barnard students "Barnard College: to prescribe the manner in which the degree of bachelor of arts conferred upon graduates of Barnard College shall be maintained at all times as a degree of equal value with the degree of bachelor of arts conferred upon the graduates of Columbia College" (Under "Charters and Statues" in the Office of the Secretary of official Columbia University documents; most recent amendment was June 2017). Additionally, yes, they are Columbia alumni because they can join the Columbia Alumni Association (some of them are not just members but officers of the association), they are recognized by Columbia 250 (which is the Columbia University site highlighting accomplishments of CU alumni), and they are eligible to win the Columbia Alumni Medal for distinguished contribution to the global community by an alum or alumnae of Columbia University. Both Barnard and Teachers College students are eligible for all of these benefits. Get your facts straight. And follow the Wiki guidelines on getting a consensus approval before making edits on them main article page or you are at risk of being banned from Wikipedia. This is still in the Talk page with dispute, thus, you are breaching rules by making edits on your own whim. 2603:3005:5002:6000:E9C3:69A:5E8E:9CAE (talk) 14:20, 9 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Barnard is an affiliated school of Columbia. It is not an undergraduate school of Columbia. It has a separate admissions process, separate endowment, and separate alumni base. The reason Barnard students are allowed into the Columbia Alumni Association is because they don't have enough alumni support and funding independently to maintain one of their own. It's clear we are dealing with a Barnard student who doesn't want to face the facts.Bluemu314 (talk) 16:47, 9 November 2018 (UTC)


 * As Malik Shabazz accurately says, you all are making too big a deal of this. As far as the facts go, Columbia lists Barnard as one of its "schools" so we should probably treat it as a constituent part of the university. --regentspark (comment) 16:58, 9 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Actually, this is false. You can be added to the CAA if you contact their alumni office and request to be added. Additionally, Barnard alums are included in the Columbia150 which is an initiative that promotes the successes of Columbia graduates. Many of the people on that website are Barnard only graduates and they are seen as no less as a Columbia alum. Furthermore, Columbia's own constitution states that the degree at Barnard is of EQUAL value to the degree received at Columbia College.Pebblefire (talk) 11:51, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Bluemu314 All of the points you made doesn't disprove or make any less true what the IP user said. You're just jumping into conclusions pointing fingers now. The degree, docs, and websites validate the IP user's point. 2600:1000:B027:23A:C9EA:E937:2302:1AFB (talk) 18:37, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

FYI: Bluemu314 in all likelihood is sock of banned prolific socker Hellishscrubber. The newly created accounts fifth or sixth edit summary said like his sock "when you make claims find a secondary source" showing good knowledge about wiki, and then immediately went to reinstate the edits of his banned sock puppet Hellishscrubber at NYU and other articles. The Hellishscrubber account added puffery to Columbia University while removing sourced contents from its peers to make them look bad. As evident from his edits and comment in the "Extreme Wikipuffery" section of this page, Bluemu314 intention is exactly the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.122.88.235 (talk) 21:20, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

The Columbia webpage lists Barnard, Teachers College, JTS and UTS as affiliates of the University. To refer to any of them as just another Columbia school is an inaccuracy, whether or not anyone gives a damn about this matter. Since when did giving a damn about the relevance of certain facts diminish the importance of stating them correctly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by RoblesXIV (talk • contribs) 21:44, 12 November 2018 (UTC)


 * It's not incorrect. They are affiliates AND schools/colleges of the University system. The only reason you're looking to add the affiliate label is to single them out as inferior, not for accuracy. Since when did becoming an affiliate mean that they are not a college of the University? All of those schools are represented in the Faculty Senate - the overall governing body that determines policy and changes for the entire University. Separate institutions would never behave this way. Have you seen UC Berkeley and Stanford doing this? Yes, they are separate administratively, but they are still considered schools of the University and the students are considered Columbia graduates. If the University's official documents say that the affiliate degrees are equivalent to all of the other Columbia degrees, that is not yours or any other popular jurisdiction to say they are not. It is up to the Board of Trustees and the Deans. Full Stop. 2601:192:4C80:1BDD:71C0:F6AC:A3B5:5795 (talk) 18:39, 13 November 2018 (UTC)


 * RoblesXIV definitely seems like a troll. Looking at your editing history you've already been warned by Wiki administrators for vandalizing the Barnard College page. And he didn't sign his Talk comment so it definitely looks like he has something to hide. Admins, you should carefully monitor his activity. 2601:192:4C80:1BDD:71C0:F6AC:A3B5:5795 (talk) 18:45, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

The article should not replace facts with what people think or feel. Yes, probably nobody outside of morningside gives a damn, but that does not justify listing inaccurate information. Some Columbia students/alums are too insecure and some Barnard students/alums struggle with their unique bold beautiful identity. Resulting in this mockery of a talk page. Why did the IP user feel the need to mention the word 'inferior' when someone else mentioned 'affiliate'? Why even is that ever a comparison and why is there such a need for validation on either side? As for the article, affiliates institutions and undergraduate schools are not the same. The very definition of an undergraduate school is different from an independent institution or a medical/law school etc. The IP user tries to validate his/her/their point by giving a url that lists 20 results, but only 3 are undergraduate schools of columbia, CC, SEAS, GS - clearly known for decades by hundreds of thousands of people. Written in Bold words in the university's constitution and noted here (https://www.columbia.edu/content/academics) ["These include three undergraduate schools, thirteen graduate and professional schools, a world-renowned medical center, four affiliated colleges and seminaries"]. Altering this FACT is not only wrong and magnifies insecurity, but a slap in the face of all those who fought for decades to incorporate women into the university before establishing Barnard. It is not about the quality, degree or prestige, it is about facts and the fact is clearly written for the public to see. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nochorus (talk • contribs) 22:18, 4 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Incorrect. Being an affiliate makes you no less of an undergraduate institution of Columbia. Barnard is BOTH. To use your own words, as highlighted here and thousands of current students and alumni already know it would be a slap in the face NOT to include Barnard as one of the FOUR undergraduate institutions when Columbia's own article of incorporation states that Barnard is a faculty unit of the degree granting body under the University, Barnard itself says it on its FAQ (https://barnard.edu/frequently-asked-questions-8), and students are so intertwined there is almost no distinction. 2601:192:4C80:1BDD:CD9E:C7CD:FD43:4988 (talk) 04:58, 16 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Did you even read my comment? Who even claimed "no less of an undergraduate institution?" I literally said the exact opposite and try to make the point that it is held to the same standard [even the degrees are held to the same standard]. But you saying "FOUR" does not make it a fact because Columbia has three undergraduate colleges [read why if you don't know ->]. There is not even a single official source or declaration on your claim that "it is one of FOUR undergraduate colleges" - and there won't be unless Columbia totally merges Barnard at some point. There is no question that it is part of the university's system [that can be verified by numerous avenues] and Barnard is a faculty unit of the degree granting body and everybody is intertwined, among tons of other unique relationships. Nobody is questioning that. But you are trying to reach a conclusion based on these systems in place, articles, and unique relationships. And it is a conclusion - not a fact or a declaration. Just like in the court of law, it does not make it an official part of the three undergraduate college group just because somebody ties some strings together. The inclusion in the list would be incorrect because it would not be coming from the administration but based on conclusions reached by individual[s]. I welcome you to visit Columbia or call/reach them on social media, who would be happy to verify and provide more information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nochorus (talk • contribs) 00:08, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Looking at this IPV6 and other addresses of the warring edits, it looks like the recent wikipuffery on this page might still be active. Constantly trying to vandalize the page by warring and not even looking at the other edits they are reverting. V6 is from the northeast so it's most probably a Barnard student/alum. Sometimes I get blown away by their intelligence and then there's delusional people who can't even accept facts. If you really want what you are asking, please go ask President Lee Bollinger of Columbia or Sian Beilock of Barnard. Discuss about making your claims official. Maybe this will stop all the drama on and off campus once and for all. You diss so much about 'superior/inferior' while nobody mentioned that and you are the only one who brought toxicity used those words in the first place. The relationship is perfectly defined in the article. But it is apparent from your warring messages that the only reason you repeatedly try to vandalize the page is because you want to make a point by putting it in the list. I heard much about seeking validation but actually seeing it like this...it's just sad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.193.79.132 (talk) 02:58, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Source: "The degree of bachelor of arts conferred upon the graduates of Barnard College shall be maintained at all times as  a degree of equal value with the degree of bachelor of arts conferred upon the graduates of Columbia College. The equivalency of the degrees shall be maintained in such manner as the University Senate may prescribe." Source: https://provost.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Faculty%20Affairs/Charters%20and%20Statutes%20September%202016.pdf2601:192:4C80:1BDD:C882:BCBF:5842:647E (talk) 19:18, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * "Columbia University was founded by royal charter as King’s College in 1754 and renamed in 1784. Barnard College was established in 1889 as both an independently incorporated educational institution for women and as one of the four official colleges of Columbia University." Source: https://barnard.edu/frequently-asked-questions-82601:192:4C80:1BDD:C882:BCBF:5842:647E (talk) 19:18, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * "Membership for all alumni clubs should be open to all Columbia University alumni including Barnard" Source: https://alumni.columbia.edu/toolkit/engagement#/search/%22clubs%20should%20be%20open%20to%20all%20Columbia%20University%20alumni%222601:192:4C80:1BDD:C882:BCBF:5842:647E (talk) 19:32, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * "The CAA Board is the governing body of the CAA, and seeks to keep alumni connected to the University and its Schools. Source: https://alumni.columbia.edu/content/get-involved2601:192:4C80:1BDD:C882:BCBF:5842:647E (talk) 19:35, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Board members part of the Columbia Alumni Association (BC designates Barnard graduates) https://alumni-association.site.drupaldisttest.cc.columbia.edu/content/caa-board-members2601:192:4C80:1BDD:C882:BCBF:5842:647E (talk) 19:35, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * This is the page for Columbia University. Official source from Columbia states that there are 3 undergraduate schools [CC,SEAS,GC]. Source: https://www.columbia.edu/content/academics.


 * Barnard with its undergraduate school is part of the "greater Columbia Community" [20 in total]. That's why your FAQ states four with this distinction. It is different from Columbia's 3 colleges, as Columbia itself states. This article needs to keep this distinction. (TF Munat (talk) 20:09, 18 January 2019 (UTC))


 * This is ridiculous. Do you know who else is considered affiliates? hospitals. Would you say a physician at Massachusetts General Hospital is not considered a member of the Harvard University community? It's an AFFILIATE institution with everything you stated above as separate: articles of incorporation, separate endowment, cash flow statements, legal statures, safety, admissions to residency programs. Would you say the same for Brigham and Women's Hospital and Boston Children's? Affiliate means that very thing - they are a part of the university!!!!!67.134.206.9 (talk) 19:27, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

The original argument was to take off "(affiliate)" but was not to take off the schools completely. When we created the drop down menu for the undergraduate schools, the administrators agreed that the best course of option was to include "all or nothing" as in all affiliates are either taken off or added on. The discussion was that, as you stated, "(affiliate)" is to be removed because some users felt that it isolated those members as part of the Columbia community. The other discussion was whether to do "all" or "nothing." The agreement was reached to include "all" because it is the most consistent with primary sources, namely, the charters and statues from the Board of Trustees of Columbia University.

Even more so, Teachers College varies from other affiliates in that the college awards Ph.Ds. These Ph.Ds are actually conferred by the Columbia Graduate School of Arts & Sciences as a doctorate in education (even though the academic syllabus and research is done at TC). Furthermore, Teachers College is not only a Faculty unit of Education (like Barnard the JTS), but it is an official Department of the University as the Department of Education (as cited again, in BOTH the faculty handbook and the Articles of Incorporation amendments) because no other school in the Columbia umbrella awards degrees in education. Lastly, Teachers College is governed by the Committee on the Master of Arts in Education, which other affiliates are not. This committee is precisely what allows TC to award education degree under the Columbia name (other affiliates do not have this because they have repeated subjects that is also represented in the College, i.e. BA in Sociology at Barnard vs BA in Sociology at Columbia College). We cannot keep having the same debate over and over and over again. This has been happening for a few years now and new editors keep coming in attempting to change it. This edit should be lockedPebblefire (talk) 11:35, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

I completely agree with my friends from TC and BC that they should be included in the list but their status as affiliates should also be indicated. Why hide? This should also anger some TC and BC students because they have pride in their schools.--OneColumbia (talk) 11:39, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

And if we're adding TC and BC what about JTS and UTS? Either way, we have to be impartial here.--OneColumbia (talk) 11:45, 22 June 2019 (UTC)


 * It's not hiding it as much as a matter of inclusivity. By "scarlet lettering" TC and BC, you are essentially deeming "separate but equal." Additionally, this matter has already been settled in the last five years by multiple administrators. We are closing the debate on this matter and no further edits are permitted 2601:192:4C80:1BDD:30C6:FD:6935:41FC (talk) 04:01, 26 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Did you forget to log in? You're a bit bossy for an IP with a grand total of three edits... —Nricardo (talk) 15:16, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm all for inclusivity and that's why we're trying to include BC and TC in the first place. Now, you have other folks saying that BC and TC should be removed from the list all together and I'm against that. That being said, the IP user 2601:192:4C80:1BDD:30C6:FD:6935:41FC has demonstrated questionable behavior including deleting legitimate comments Nricardo has made. It's not "separate but equal", it's about "facts and impartiality". I don't understand how BC and TC is different from JTS and UTS for that matter and you have to be impartial. Columbia.edu lists these schools as affiliates and ignoring these facts is detrimental for Wikipedia.--OneColumbia (talk) 10:24, 28 June 2019 (UTC)


 * "Horrible" is not an objective measure of anything. I agree with IP user in that marking TC and Barnard as separate universities apart from the Columbia umbrella singles them out as inferior. Also, didn't we literally have this exact same discussion two years ago? We need to stop repeating debates once they've been settled. Barnard and TC are equal institutions who are conferred Columbia diplomas as the rest of the other schools are on that list. We already state in-text of the Wiki article and TC and Barnard are affiliates with separate endowments, financials, security, and admissions. So I agree, we've already stated pretty clearly they are affiliates. Others who are making a stink about NEEDING to put the label "affiliates" are elitists who are only trying to segregate TC and BC from the Columbia communityPebblefire (talk) 17:26, 2 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I never said horrible. To the point you're trying to make, I'm trying to do the exact opposite. That's why we're trying to include BC and TC in the list. It's not about segregation or elitism, it's about the facts. In terms of impartiality, if you're including BC and TC, a legitimate question arises whether JTS and UTS should be added to the list. Just adding BC and TC, therefore, demonstrates that unfortunately some editors on Wikipedia cannot put aside their personal feelings when it comes to editing. What I'm pushing for is simple. Write the facts Columbia.edu requires us to write. I also don't understand your argument that the word "affiliate" somehow means inferior and that's only your opinion. Affiliate means that they are retaining independence while also being part of the larger Columbia community. And I call for proper investigation whether the IP address user and Pebblefire are different users.--OneColumbia (talk) 02:25, 3 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The point that I'm trying to make is the fact that many administrators and editors have discussed this in the past (re: above). The original discussion came about when Barnard had the "(affiliate)" label and TC didn't. The debate came to the conclusion of "all or nothing" if you're going to do it for one school, do it for all affiliates. We agreed to delete the "(affiliate)" title because the article already states in-text details about the affiliate agreement (i.e. administration, endowment, security, admissions, etc.) while the list itself shows inclusivity. As stated in previous edits (not about this, but wiki edits in general), university websites are actually not considered reliable primary sources and the Columbia University documents officially state the charters and statues that BC and TC degrees are equal of value and are considered faculties/departments of the university. There is no point in singling them out as "separate but equal" by marking them with "(affiliate)" as they all receive Columbia degrees. The reason why UTS and JTS are not included is because while they are affiliates, they do not receive Columbia degrees unless they do the joint program with Columbia. If you look at their diplomas, their degrees are conferred by their own respective board of trustees rather than Columbia's board of trustees. Thus, they have their own degrees with their own official graduation regalia. However, join BA/BS degree programs or graduate programs do exist in which it is easy to also be admitted to a Columbia program and receive Columbia degrees. Lastly, UTS and JTS are not eligible for the Columbia Alumni Medal while BC and TC are. BC and TC's relationships are much more integrated with Columbia and the only difference is purely administrative (in fact, if you receive a PhD from TC, your funding comes from TC, but the conferral is from the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences)Pebblefire (talk) 12:54, 3 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I find it odd that your entire argument for including TC and BC in the list is based on inclusivity (great, based on your edit above, it seems we agree that TC and BC are affiliates) but when it comes to JTS and UTS, that's out the window. What you're doing is precisely practicing "separate but equal" under your definition. Since you mention degrees, I want to mention that if you go to the Columbia registrar in Kent to verify TC and BC degrees, they will tell you to go to their respective registrars. Also, Columbia uses the National Student Clearinghouse to verify degrees (see https://registrar.columbia.edu/content/certifications). However, the National Student Clearinghouse draws a distinction between Columbia (code: 002707) and TC (code: 003979). If the two schools offer identical degrees as you claim, there's no reason why the National Student Clearinghouse draws a distinction in terms of verifying degrees. We don't have a separate code for CLS or GSAS, for example. I also think you should be upfront about your affiliation to TC because I think you're being unreasonable. --OneColumbia (talk) 13:50, 4 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Agreeing with yourself, not waiting for an actual vote by other members of the wiki community, and declaring a consensus by yourself is not consistent with wiki's policies. When this debate was settled two years ago, those exact procedures were followed. Furthermore, the National Clearinghouse provides certifications on institutions. I think you are a sockpuppet account from RoblesXIV or NoChorus who constantly cited the national clearing house data and ignored all of th other counterevidence against your position. There is no argument that Barnard, JTS, TC, and UTS are administratively separate institutions with separate admissions, endowment, and security (as already stated above. please read the previous statements). There also is no argument that they are affiliate institutions - don't be presumptuous about other people's stance without fully understanding them. As an affiliate institution, they are still a part of the Columbia umbrella as the Board of Trustees grants BC and TC's degrees (not JTS and UTS). The national clearinghouse cites their legal articles of incorporation as separate institutions which is correct because their administrative offices for transcripts are in separate locations. Their degrees are all printed, conferred, and sealed by Columbia. Furthermore, the official documentation from the Office of the President (under the Secretary and Registrar's documentation cited multiple times over in the course of the last few years) very clearly state that BC and TC are faculties of the university whereas JTS and UTS are not. JTS and UTS are not "separate but equal" because faculties are not shared and they have their own separate degrees (printed on the diploma as "The Board of Trustees of the Jewish Theological Seminary" though students can pursue a dual degree at Columbia and also receive a second Columbia degree easily). Even more so, TC is considered Columbia's "Graduate School of Education", "Department of Education" and "Faculty of Education" based on the official documentation I've cited numerous times already. Thus, TC is an official college of Columbia University. The degree is conferred by the Administrative Board on the Master of Art in Education by Columbia University. There is no denial about their affiliation relationship - there is already an entire paragraph devoted to that on the main article. But to put a scarlet letter on the institutions by singling them out on the list only creates strife in the overall Columbia community and is unnecessary.Pebblefire (talk) 14:26, 4 July 2019 (UTC)


 * So again, we do seem to have a consensus that TC is an affiliate of Columbia. While admitting that TC is an affiliate, your argument is that it doesn't need to be restated in the list because it's stated in the article. The only point we disagree, then, is whether TC should not be labeled as an affiliate on the list for the sake of inclusivity. If you believe I'm a sockpuppet account, which I unequivocally deny, the administrators are free to investigate my account provided that a full and complete inquiry is made whether Pebblefire is a sockpuppet account, has multiple accounts or used IP addresses to give a false impression that Pebblefire's opinion is somehow popular. TC's affiliate status is clearly indicated in multiple places on Columbia's website and I have consistently said that BC and TC are part of the larger community but they retain their independence, hence their affiliate status. I think it's obvious that Pebblefire is either a student or a graduate of TC but you have to be impartial here.--OneColumbia (talk) 16:03, 4 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm almost certain that the indefed sock user Pebblefire is still editing the Columbia page. I request a complete investigation and it's unfortunate that the user didn't reply to me on this page before editing because he doesn't have a legitimate argument to present.--OneColumbia (talk) 12:18, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

I've also reviewed past discussions by admins and most of them, if not all admins involved in the discussion, agree that we should list TC as an affiliate. If it's an apple, we write apple. If it's an orange, we write orange. It doesn't get easier than that.--OneColumbia (talk) 11:21, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

2020, and we're doing this all over again. Drmies (talk)
I share the view that Barnard College and Teachers College are indicated as affiliates on Columbia U website (including Columbia Alumni Association website) and should be indicated as such in the article. --HamiltonProject (talk) 15:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Admin regentspark and other users including ABCDE22 and OneColumbia have correctly argued that Teachers College and Barnard College are affiliates of Columbia. I am asking for a consensus to settle this issue once and for all. --HamiltonProject (talk) 08:24, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

At least 7 official university documents and websites confirm that Teachers College is an affiliate school.


 * 1. Columbia University Office of Planning and Institutional Research (also posted on the Provost's website) Headcount enrollment by school: no mention of Teachers College (https://opir.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Statistical%20Abstract/opir_enrollment_history.pdf)


 * 2. Columbia University Office of Planning and Institutional Research (also posted on the Provost's website) Faculty distribution by school: no mention of Teachers College (https://opir.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Statistical%20Abstract/opir_faculty_history.pdf)


 * 3. Columbia Alumni Association - Alumni Community: Teachers College under affiliate schools, "Please note we are currently not permitted to offer access to alumni of affiliate schools (Teachers College, Barnard College, Union Theological Seminary, Jewish Theological Seminary, and affiliate programs.", however also note that "The Graduate School of Arts & Sciences (GSAS) is the granting school for all Ph.D., Ed.D. and Masters of Philosophy degree holders at Teachers College. T.C. alumni from these specific degree programs will have access to the Alumni Community directory upon graduation." (https://alumni.columbia.edu/content/alumni-community/eligibility)


 * 4. Columbia University Homepage (Columbia.edu): Scroll down to the bottom, Teachers College listed under "AFFILIATE SCHOOLS" (https://www.columbia.edu/)


 * 5. Columbia University Academics website: "The University offers an outstanding and comprehensive array of academic programs. These include three undergraduate schools, thirteen graduate and professional schools, a world-renowned medical center, four affiliated colleges and seminaries, twenty-five libraries, and more than one hundred research centers and institutes". (https://www.columbia.edu/content/academics)


 * 6. Columbia University Charter and Statues: Representatives from Teachers College listed under "d. Affiliated institution members" in Section II "The University Senate" "...Subject to renegotiation of the existing affiliation agreement with Teachers College, two representatives of the faculty of Teachers College". (page 17) (https://secretary.columbia.edu/files/secretary/university_charters_and_statutes/University%20Charters%20and%20Statutes_June2017.pdf)


 * 7. Columbia University Fact Sheet (from the Provost's website): Teachers College listed under "affiliate school" https://opir.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Columbia%20Facts/Facts_2019.pdf

--HamiltonProject (talk) 16:14, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Affiliate doesn’t mean non-affiliate when you want it to... once again, the argument is not over whether TC is an affiliate(it is) it’s whether it is appropriate to put the word “affiliate” next to TC in the grad school listing, which to me is clearly redundant and confusing... to avoid confusion the relationship between TC and CU should be fully and accurately described in the body but the grad school listing should be left alone... CUfiveo (talk) 07:55, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What you are basically doing here is putting Puerto Rico in a list of 50 states without any explanation whatsoever; Columbia website says they only have 14 graduate schools including the medical center so if we have 15 schools on the list, it contradicts official sources. Thus an explanation is required if we are going to keep Teachers College in the list. Alternatively, we can remove affiliate schools altogether or create a new list just for affiliate schools.--HamiltonProject (talk) 17:29, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

That analogy is weak and the "official" sources you cite aren't official or correct... your website isn't more official than the official Statues and Charters of CU which clearly state TC graduates get CU diplomas... TC should definitely not get lumped in with JTS or UTS or even Barnard, the relationship between Columbia and them are so much different. TC is an official grad school and can only give out CU diplomas while JTS offers non-Columbia degree programs with only one joint degree program... UTS doesn’t offer any programs leading to a Columbia University diploma... TC’s President is a CU dean... TC is on another level than those seminary schools and it should be reflected in the listing... TC is the official grad school of education of CU it shouldn't have the word "affiliate" redundantly shoved next to it, rather you should fully describe the relationship in the body

PS as was stated before the word "affiliate" doesn't mean "non-affiliate"... you keep forgetting CUfiveo (talk) 19:40, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If you look at page 17 of the Official Statues and Charters, it is clear that Teachers College is an affiliated institution. I will not get into the diploma issue (according to Columbia Alumni Association website, Ph.D., Ed.D and M.Phil. candidates at Teachers College do receive Columbia diplomas, not sure about the other degree candidates and I am not taking a position on this issue pending review), but again, this should be resolved according to the official university documents. The question of whether Teachers College is an affiliate school should also be resolved according to the official university documents. I think it is entirely possible for a graduate from an affiliate school to receive a Columbia diploma but the fact remains that Teachers College is designated as an affiliate school of the university under the Official Statues and Charters.
 * If you oppose lumping Barnard College and Teachers College together because they are "so much different", think about lumping Teachers College and the Business School together. They are completely different.--HamiltonProject (talk) 20:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

OU STILL DONT GET THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD "AFFILIATE" STOP EDITING UNTIL YOU DO... (check out page 97 for TC degree/diploma info: S243: "The University will confer appropriate degrees and diplomas upon students... the college shall grant no degrees or diplomas." https://secretary.columbia.edu/files/secretary/university_charters_and_statutes/University%20Charters%20and%20Statutes_June%202013.pdf) Barnard only gives out bachelor degrees and negotiated their relationship with CU completely separate from TC... TC exclusively grants CU graduate degrees as the official graduate school of education, the business school exclusively grants CU graduate degrees too, thus they both should be listed together in the grad school listings CUfiveo (talk) 21:10, 4 June 2020 (UTC)


 * You can interpret affiliate as you wish but that is basically the word used every time in official documents when Columbia describes their relationship with Teachers College so why oppose using the same word? You seem to think that whether a school is an affiliate or not is solely determined by the diploma (because you want to argue that Teachers College that you were accepted to grants Columbia degrees), and that is not true. Here, I am talking more about the financial aspects and that they have their own board of trustees, which justifies the use of the word affiliate. Columbia Business School does not have their own board of trustees. Barnard College and Teachers College do. Barnard College pays a couple of million dollars every year to Columbia to use Columbia facilities. Teachers College has an affiliation agreement signed with Columbia and you do not sign an agreement with yourself. Hence, affiliated. You admit that you were accepted to Teachers College on my page (June 2, 16:39 UTC) so you should stop editing the article as it is conflict of interest to do so.--HamiltonProject (talk) 03:55, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I just cannot understand why CUfiveo opposes lumping Barnard College and Teachers College together (see above) but is fine with lumping Teachers College and the Business School together despite the fact that they are more far apart in terms of their relationship to Columbia. There is an affiliation agreement that was signed between Columbia and Teachers College and you do not sign an agreement with yourself. It is a business transaction for both parties to sign the affiliation agreement and both parties have certain responsibilities under the agreement. User:ABCDE22, User:Contributor321, it would help if I can get your opinions on this issue. --HamiltonProject (talk) 04:46, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

At first, I would like to thank User: HamiltonProject for his/her/they wise edit before the last edit where he/she/they has mentioned about board of trustee and financial policy, I think it has already resolved the problem. The coming to the topic of user: CUfivio; I am really yet to get this new topic I mean Teachers College own website mention it as affiliate so why we should not mention that? https://www.tc.columbia.edu/student-handbook/about-tc/#:~:text=Teachers%20College%20became%20affiliated%20with,individuals%20from%20around%20the%20world. Besides Columbia Uni mention it as its affiliate besides Barnard and other affiliate (see the underneath of official Columbia website where the university list its school). When Columbia says its not affiliate rather then official grad school which is echoed by Teacher's College then who we are not to mention that? ABCDE22 (talk) 11:28, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Another thing to mention user: CUfivio, that when I gave my opinion I understood completely the matter of "Diploma" which you have raised that is the reason that wikipedian has kept TC and BC on school list besides a DISCLAIMER (Hamilton project recently did and is present current structure) or mentioning the word affiliate (which I once did, the previous structure). You can see that in the website Columbia; Columbia mention other two theological school besides BC and TC but we dont write them on the box because these two schools do not guarantee Columbia degree. So yeah we understand your point. Now you need to accept the fact that Teacher's college is affiliated with Columbia not an official graduate school. ABCDE22 (talk) 11:48, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

User: ABCDE22 the Handbook makes it clear "The Faculty of Teachers College serves as the University’s Department of Education." http://www.columbia.edu/cu/vpaa/handbook/organization.html... the problem is with the word "affiliate", it seems like a good number of users still think it means "non-affiliate" for some reason... CUfiveo (talk) 12:55, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

User:CUfiveo, yes they serve under Department of Education just like Barnard also a faculty of the CU but that does not change the status and I really fail to understand why are you repeating that we think that "affiliate are not affiliate"!! The difference between official school and affiliate school are done by Columbia's own website. We have nothing to do about it. Bests ABCDE22 (talk) 13:13, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Status? Columbia's own website needs to fix that then... they are lumping a grad school that can only grant CU graduate degrees with schools that can't even grant a CU degree period and an undergraduate institution... look up the definition of affiliate it means member not non-member CUfiveo (talk) 13:20, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As I have stated above, whether a school is an affiliate is not determined by whether the school gives out Columbia degrees. It is determined by the fact that Columbia and Teachers College entered into a business agreement through an affiliation agreement, the fact that Teachers College has their own Board of Trustees and their financial independence etc. Teachers College, under this business transaction and affiliation agreement, has certain obligations and responsibilities, which includes paying to Columbia so their students can use Columbia facilities. Columbia, on the other hand, must provide Teachers College students with access to libraries to hold up their end of the deal. Hence, Teachers College is an affiliate and whether their graduates receive Columbia diplomas is not relevant to Columbia's designation of Teachers College as an affiliate school. --HamiltonProject (talk) 13:30, 5 June 2020 (UTC)


 * @, we don't need to understand any defination of affiliation. There is a wikipedia policy which forbids us to do any original research (WP:NOR). We are obliged to put only reliable published info. If you think Columbia is wrong to call TC an affiliate (which TC also agree with), then contract officials from Columbia and TC. If they change their agreement and support your arguement by mentioning TC as its official school then I promise we will change it also. Don't drag us about it anymore it's not in our hand. Bests ABCDE22 (talk) 15:26, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you ABCDE22; you took the words right out of my mouth. --HamiltonProject (talk) 16:20, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * @ My Pleasure!ABCDE22 (talk) 16:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

At least you two admit to not knowing what "affiliate" means... it would help if you did because you are perpetuating a confusing redundancy with the whole "affiliate" label in the grad school listing... just because the Columbia website you cite is wrong or corrupt doesn't mean we can't get it right on wiki... how else is an affiliate/official school determined other than the fact they give out CU degrees exclusively? If that isn't what determines it shouldn't it? Either way the Handbook makes it clear "The Faculty of Teachers College serves as the University’s Department of Education." http://www.columbia.edu/cu/vpaa/handbook/organization.html CUfiveo (talk) 16:26, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No, we just said knowing what "affiliate" means does not matter because we just follow whatever word is used in the official documents pursuant to WP:NOR. Again, the relationship is determined and defined by a biding affiliation agreement that was signed by both parties (Columbia and Teachers College), and the fact that Teachers College has their own Board of Trustees and budget. You do not sign an affiliation agreement with yourself, right? And no affiliation agreement exists between Columbia and the Business School or other graduate schools (except for Teachers College), for that matter. We are obliged to follow official published documents as ABCDE22 puts it and at least 7 official university documents say that Teachers College is an affiliate. --HamiltonProject (talk) 21:21, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT TC ISNT AN AFFILIATE (it's whether we should be shoving the word "affiliate" behind TC's wiki grad school listing)... At least you two admit to brainlessly perpetuating a confusing redundancy... you guys really think you should be editing when you have such a thin grasp on the English language, especially the specific word you keep editing? It's pretty obvious why this issue keeps coming up (besides the obvious lack of understanding of the word being used) and it's because of ignorant editors that fail to realize their "official" sources (7 random university websites, not official documents) are not more official than the official Columbia Handbook/Charters and Statutes. TC is in the type of relationship it is with CU because they had so much more negotiating power at the time they were able to get their unique financial situation (CU was desperate to have a complete university at the time, especially a College of Education, the first one ever mind you, so they bent)... CUfiveo (talk) 04:37, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, one of the official sources happens to be the exact Official Charters and Statues (page 17) and you got 6 other university sources confirming that. There is not even a single source that says Teachers College has the same relationship to Columbia as other Columbia graduate schools, the exact debunked myth that you are trying to perpetuate by conveniently hiding the status and the affiliation agreement where readers see the most. The relationship between Columbia and Teachers College is determined by an affiliation agreement (and that is the basis of the relationship) so it would be misleading not to make that relationship clear. If you ignore the affiliation agreement, you are basically arguing that Teachers College has nothing to do with Columbia whatsoever. --HamiltonProject (talk) 05:25, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Also no affiliation agreement between Columbia and all of the schools listed as Columbia graduate schools in the Wiki article except for Teachers College (yes all of them, including the Business School, the Law School and Graduate School of Arts and Sciences). But Teachers College does have an affiliation agreement with Columbia. --HamiltonProject (talk) 05:32, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Six other sources confirming what? Yes TC is an "affiliate" of CU but that means "part of" or "member", not "non-member" the way you use it... being financially independent proves how superior TC was to CU when they negotiated the affiliation (TC's international reputation is still much higher than CU's even today FYI) so it doesnt matter who TC is listed with on the bottom of a random University webpage it doesn't change that ALL TC graduates get CU graduate degrees (which is made clear in the official Charters and Statutes)... the OPIR website for some reason doesn't list TC, that doesn't mean TC grads don't get CU degrees, it means the OPIR is either corrupt or inept. I agree, make sure you clearly, accurately and fully describe TC and CU's relationship in the body instead of shoving it into the grad school listing which is unencyclopedic... CUfiveo (talk) 08:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If "affiliate" means "part of" or "member" as you claim, why are you concerned? That is what you want, right? Also, if Teachers College's reputation is higher than that of Columbia's as you argue, why cling to it? Higher reputation Teachers College does not have to cling to Columbia and I believe Columbia will be happy with that as well. As you admit, Teachers College is an affiliate and whether or not Teachers College's graduates receive Columbia degrees (official sources tell me that Ph.D., Ed.D. and M.Phil. candidates do; again I am following the official sources no matter where that leads me to) is irrelevant; I am talking about the financial aspects and the governance structure including the fact that they have their own Board of Trustees (how many times do I have to repeat this). --HamiltonProject (talk) 11:44, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

People are concerned when you label TC with "affiliate" in the college/grad school list because TC's presence there already implies that it is an affiliate. It's redundant, confusing, and UNNECESSARY... and who is clinging to who? TC is CU! Your source is an alumni website not an official document and is wrong if they say only TC degrees conferred by the GSAS are Columbia degrees. Look at the official Charters and Statutes, ALL TC GRADS GET CU DEGREES, S243: "The University will confer appropriate degrees and diplomas upon students... the college shall grant no degrees or diplomas." As you say the financial structure and governance structure are unique to TC, but why do you have to mention that in the college/school listing and not the body? What you are doing is adding confusion when it's unnecessary. The fact TC grads get CU degrees makes them MORE of an affiliate, the fact TC is financially separate and has its own governance are things that make it LESS of an affiliate. I think you are starting to get it, affiliates/members SHOULD be determined by whether they exclusively give out CU degrees... you think readers are really that concerned about whether their tuition money inevitably goes to TC versus CU when they are getting a CU diploma regardless? CUfiveo (talk) 16:15, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You said Teachers College has a higher international reputation than Columbia (see above) so if that is the case, why are you so desperate to make it seem like Teachers College is an official school (been on here for over 2 years arguing with multiple users)?


 * To respond to your definition of "affiliate", you state that "affiliate" means "part of" (see above, June 7 08:47 UTC). If that is the case, why do you think all of the 14 Columbia graduate schools are not given the affiliate designation by Columbia? All of the other graduate schools are clearly "part of" Columbia, no? Again, Wikipedia policy forbids us from doing original research and since official sources tell us that there are 14 graduate schools including the medical center, there has to be at least an explanation if we want to put 15 on the list. (Another solution is to remove the affiliate schools from the list altogether, so I am actually doing a favor for you TRYING HARD to keep Teachers College on the list!)


 * Finally, I am asking you to recuse yourself, as you have admitted on my page that you were accepted to Teachers College.--HamiltonProject (talk) 16:38, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Why are you so desperate to make it seem like TC isn't an official faculty? Your sources are weak. Affiliate designation means member not nonmember remember. Anyways, the way CU is structured officially is technically by 20 faculties (TC being one of them) and 78 departments of instruction, not specifically grad schools and undergraduate schools as listed in wiki. The Handbook makes it clear "The Faculty of Teachers College serves as the University’s Department of Education." http://www.columbia.edu/cu/vpaa/handbook/organization.html CUfiveo (talk) 17:27, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Because I want to follow the official sources to write THE FACTS, and not hide them. If I am desperate (maybe I should be to follow the sources), I would remove Teachers College from the list altogether but I am doing a favor for you and WORKING HARD to come up with an excuse so that it could stay on the list (despite Columbia saying there are 14 graduate schools including the medical center and 4 affiliate schools). The documents you have presented above does not contradict with official sources saying that Teachers College is an affiliate school. You did not answer my question so here it goes again: You state that "affiliate" means "part of" or "member" (see above, June 7 08:47 UTC). If that is the case, why do you think all of the 14 Columbia graduate schools are not given the affiliate designation by Columbia? All of the other graduate schools are clearly "members" or "part of" Columbia, no?--HamiltonProject (talk) 17:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

What justification would you have for removing TC from the list? I should redo the entire list altogether and set it up according to the Columbia Handbook with faculties and departments of instruction not grad schools and undergraduate schools. Who or what department is technically designating schools as affiliates/members anyways? The person who designs and decides the wording on a website isn't necessarily anyone official... CUfiveo (talk) 18:08, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you answer my question above (I am asking this for the third time)? Then I will answer your question (if you cannot answer it, then you have the answer to your own question right there). Thank you. --HamiltonProject (talk) 18:10, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

TC was around before CU, the other schools started in the University. CU wanted TC bad... the affiliation agreement is a result of CU being inferior to TC and having to give up any financial benefits they'd get from TC just so TC would become a part of the University and increase CU's reputation... affiliate designation means you are a member, you have a lot of trouble with this concept... CUfiveo (talk) 18:50, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * In answering my question, you explain that Teachers College was around before Columbia, "the other schools started in the university". However, 6 graduate schools on the list were established prior to Teachers College (Physicians and Surgeons, Dental Medicine, Law School, Engineering, Graduate School of Arts and Sciences and Architecture) yet they are not affiliates. You still have trouble answering my question: If affiliate means "part of" or "member" as you argue, why do you think all of the 14 Columbia graduate schools are not given the affiliate designation by Columbia? All of the other graduate schools are clearly "members" or "part of" Columbia, no? I am not getting into the inferior/superior argument as it is subjective with no official sources. --HamiltonProject (talk) 19:12, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

You are right, it is more accurate to say TC started separate rather than before... TC isn't given the affiliate designation by CU, CU doesn't structure itself technically that way... that's just how someone decided to word it and lay it out on the website... it's pretty obvious TC makes more sense being grouped with the grad schools rather the random schools that are listed as affiliates which should prob be eliminated altogether while adding a seminary section to the list and BC to the right section CUfiveo (talk) 19:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Teachers College is given the affiliate designation by Columbia's Official Charters and Statues (page 17), the Provost's office, the Office of Planning and Institutional Research and the Columbia Alumni Association. It is not just on the website, it is everywhere. We cannot give some affiliates a spot on the list and eliminate other affiliates because we are obliged to follow official documents and there is a lot of subjectivity and original research going on if we do so. If we do, there needs to be at least an explanation in the list, where this controversy is going on--HamiltonProject (talk) 04:24, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

The "affiliate designation" is more a description that the school is part of the University than anything official... afilliate does not mean partial-affiliate or nonaffiliate, you really have to try to understand this because you keep reverting to the same bs... the fact the word affiliate is so problematic period is proof it's best to be avoided from now on. The controversy stems from a poorly done Columbia website directory/list that unnecessarily and unofficially made up an affiliate category that doesn't make sense and should be eliminated... each school has a different situation that should be fully described in the body not labeled affiliate on a list. CU is divided officially into faculties and departments in the Handbook and unofficially into grad schools and undergraduate schools on the website/wiki for some reason, are you going to fix that? The only reason TC was favored with a unique financial/afilliate situation is because it had a superior negotiating position and because it started separate from CU and had to merge... the explanation needs to go in the body to avoid making the wiki list redundant, confusing and unencyclopedic. If you are serious about following official documents to avoid subjectivity start citing the Handbook/Charters and Statutes not random University websites' wording... CUfiveo (talk) 08:36, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The website is only following page 17 of the Official Charters and Statues (and correctly so). The affiliate category is officially designated in the Official Charters and Statues (page 17). You have at least 7 official university documents (including the Official Charters and Statues) confirming that Teachers College is an affiliate and you continue to say that the affiliate category was "unofficially made up"? You keep on saying that "affiliate" means "part of", but if that is the case, why is Teachers College the only affiliate on the list while all of the 14 Columbia graduate schools are not affiliates (they are clearly "part of" Columbia)? Just because you do not like the facts listed on an official document does not mean you can ignore it. You state that Teachers College "had to merge" with Columbia but this is just plain false as it never merged and is a different entity according to the federal government website (Department of Education). Teachers College: https://ope.ed.gov/dapip/#/institution-profile/132611 Columbia University: https://ope.ed.gov/dapip/#/institution-profile/129905 (no separate entries for 14 Columbia graduate schools). Also, if you look at the institutional accreditation records, Teachers College and Columbia University are accredited separately by the Middle States Commission on Higher Education, because they are different entities. We cannot include a different entity on the list and hide this important fact as if nothing happened. --HamiltonProject (talk) 10:25, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Also see: Columbia University Policy Library: Affiliates Policy
 * "Columbia University (“the University”) may choose to enter into ongoing academic or business relationships with separately incorporated entities for various reasons. ::Although these entities are independent of the University, the purpose of this policy is to define the various types of relationships and reference the University’s policies and procedures governing them."
 * "The University maintains several clinical and educational affiliation agreements with other organizations... The University’s Primary Educational and Research Affiliates are: New York Presbyterian Hospital  Barnard College  Teachers College  Union Theological Seminary  Jewish Theological Seminary  NY State Psychiatric Institute"
 * Official policy can be accessed here: https://policylibrary.columbia.edu/files/policylib/imce_shared/Affiliates_Policy_.pdf


 * I feel your Teachers College being "part of" Columbia argument is a bunch of malarkey when you see the official policy, page 17 of the Official Charter and Statues and United States Department of Education website. How can "part of" and "other organizations"/"separately incorporated entities" be compatible with each other?

--HamiltonProject (talk) 10:49, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Directly from the Handbook:

Academic Structure of the University The basic organizing units of the University are its 20 Faculties and 78 departments of instruction. The Faculties are commonly referred to as schools or colleges, depending upon historical circumstances. However, the terms are not synonymous, since some schools and colleges are units within larger Faculties. Academic activity is also conducted through administrative boards, institutes, interdepartmental programs, centers, and laboratories.

The relationship between Faculties and departments is a complex one. In general, Faculties are responsible for curricular programs leading to degrees and certificates, while departments provide the instruction required by those programs. The focus of some Faculties is sufficiently limited that they are simultaneously departments, while others draw on many departments to meet their instructional needs. Conversely, some departments are part of more than one Faculty.

Two affiliated institutions – Barnard College and Teachers College – are also Faculties of the University.

The Faculty of Teachers College serves as the University’s Department of Education.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/vpaa/handbook/organization.html CUfiveo (talk) 15:07, 8 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Sure but I do not see anything on the handbook contradicting the fact that Teachers College is a "separately incorporated entity" and "affiliate institution" as per page 17 of the Official Charters and the official policy of Columbia. --HamiltonProject (talk) 16:13, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Look, most of the people go by schools and not by faculties... I know CUfiveo wants to include Teachers College in the list no matter what (since you were accepted to the school) but this is what I call confusing and not helpful for the readers. By the way, I will not start saying the handbook is corrupt/inept (as you did for the official documents published by the Office of Planning and Institutional Research and the Provost's office), but I will say it is outdated since there is no mention of the African American and African Diaspora Studies Department and Professional Studies is still Continuing Education (look like a website from the early 2000s). You refuse to accept recent official documents from the Office of Planning and Institutional Research and the Provost's office (updated every year) and the current Columbia homepage but decide to use an outdated website probably from the early 2000s to justify the listing of Teachers College. Looks like you have a double standard there. --HamiltonProject (talk) 07:15, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You realize that even if we list faculties instead of schools, Teachers College is a "separately incorporated entity", "affiliate institution" and "other organization" as per the Official Policies of Columbia University (see Policy Library) so we cannot ignore that, right? --HamiltonProject (talk) 07:27, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I welcome the opportunity to discuss because the official sources back up what I am saying. We cannot ignore multiple recent documents published by the university and the Columbia homepage to use an outdated website from the early 2000s as a source. You know what you are doing is wrong yourself and there is no better proof than the fact that you decided to resort to edit-warring without discussing it on the talk page. CUfiveo, you admit that you were accepted to Teachers College so it is time to stop this non-sense and conflict of interest. --HamiltonProject (talk) 08:18, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you again, ABCDE22. This is getting out of hand because CUfiveo is doing conflict of interest editing (user admits he/she was accepted to Teachers College), IP socking, edit-warring (doing something like 6rr) and plagiarism (or copyvio). After multiple users pointed this out, now he/she is doing a quick fix of a 4th grader trying to hide plagiarism by paraphrasing (which is obviously still plagiarism). I hope Teachers College teaches him/her about academic writing in the meantime but unfortunately it looks like we are not dealing with someone who we can have a constructive discussion; I wanted to have your thoughts going forward. Best, HamiltonProject --HamiltonProject (talk) 16:23, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

@ then we need to inform admin regarding this. I and you can't handle this. ABCDE22 (talk) 05:26, 11 June 2020 (UTC)


 * , your issue might have been solved as the page is being protected and IPs can't edit it anymore. ABCDE22 (talk) 05:43, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the admins are looking into this as we speak; thanks! --HamiltonProject (talk) 11:04, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Chill out dude! I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings when I commented on your understanding of English, but it is a legitimate point... also the threat was to make the page more official/accurate, but less like you want it, listing faculties instead of schools like the Handbook describes, so don't take it personally... CUfiveo (talk) 14:04, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If you want to make the page more official/accurate, look at the Columbia homepage or the Provost's website instead of a website (handbook) from the early 2000s containing lots of outdated information. Thank you. --HamiltonProject (talk) 14:11, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Besides the rampant strawmen arguments you pose (you are constantly lying about me on here, please stop) your biggest issue is that you think the wording on random websites is more legit than official University documents like the Handbook and the official Charters and Statutes... CUfiveo (talk) 14:37, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Please see page 17 of the Official Charters and Statues where Teachers College is designated as an affiliate. If you are accusing me of doing something, can you at least show me when or where I did that? You accused me of referring to Office of Planning and Institutional Research as "we", and although I have requested multiple times that you show me where I said that, I have yet to receive a response from you. --HamiltonProject (talk) 14:50, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Dear,, I am really tired with your BS! Anyways I did prove my points, I proved that your arguement was invalid as you can see that no one else has supported you besides you have been blocked from wikipedia for indefinite time for you disruptive editing and vandalism. I don't complained about you when you questioned my understanding of English I only complained when you cross your limits of being disruptive, I complained when you violated multiple wikipedia policy (I have pointed this in my complain to the admin) and dared to threat me and gave me "last chance". Now look whose last chance!! Lol!! It was never about my feelings it was always about your unruly behavious. So, don't shift argument to my personal feelings. Now, atleast accept your mistake if you have the ability! Anyways arguing with you is pointless! Bests ABCDE22 (talk) 14:58, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

HamiltonProject you said it on your talk page: "You can argue that Columbia University's Office of Planning and Institutional Research is inept but we have 7 official documents..." CUfiveo (talk) 15:14, 13 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The "we" here, is clearly referring to me, ABCDE22 and other users who support the idea that Teachers College is an affiliate. It is clear that the "we" in question is not referring to the Office of Planning and Institutional Research because if you look at the 7 official documents I listed, most of the documents are published by other offices of the university (and therefore would not make sense if you interpret it your way). --HamiltonProject (talk) 15:23, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

We agree what makes TC unique is they are financially independent and have their own administration... so do you think readers looking at the list need to be alerted of that right there and with just the problematic word "affiliate"... putting that word there just creates confusion especially because it is redundant since TC's presence in the list already implies it's an affiliate(aka member)... it makes sense to note the situation in the body not the list since readers looking at the list care more about if they are getting a CU diploma(which all TC grad are granted) rather where their money inevitably ends up or who does the paperwork... CUfiveo (talk) 15:46, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Listen dear, look at your only cited source; they don't even let the word "affiliate" go; a faculty of the uni but in a different which is already mentioned! SO, I have a great idea for you, put your grievance before Columbia officials as you claim you are a student there, it might be easy for you; tell them that you are getting confused by their use of the word "affiliate", make sure to teach them definition of the word as you were teaching us for the past few weeks and do not forget to question them about their understanding of English as it is a "legitimate point" and ask them that why they still don't understand the point that "affiliate does not mean non affiliate". Whats the use of their Phd if they do not understand such basic word!? And when I am saying Columbia I am saying whole Columbia (inc TC and BC), so ask it to your profs also (if you really a student there) and if they don't understand; be patient with them and teach them in simple word so they could understand and if still they don't don't forget to give them a "last chance" as you had given me in your edit and make them  change their documents by if they don't, do it youself as you did in wikipedia. If you even can't do that then  ask your college to at least publish a press release to contradict their own official docs. So that we could at least consider your argument to put in the wikipedia page. ABCDE22 (talk) 16:33, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

The Handbook says Columbia is officially divided into Faculties NOT ugrad/grad/affiliate schools... CUfiveo (talk) 18:02, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The handbook you keep on mentioning is a website from probably the 2000s with lots of outdated information. Yes, there are Faculties but you see the administration dividing into schools on official documents (see below, and I mean recent ones not the outdated handbook/website you keep on giving us) and schools are used far more frequently as a practical matter and on official university documents. Look up a student on the directory and you will see the school name under title, not the Faculty name. The Faculty is also particularly confusing because Faculty of Arts and Sciences consists of Columbia College, General Studies, Graduate School of Arts and Sciences etc. but then you also had each of these schools also appearing on the same list you created, also as Faculties of the university. But for your purpose, I think it is moot because whether we divided it up into schools or faculties, Teachers College remains a separately incorporated entity and that fact will remain on either list(s).
 * 1. https://opir.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Columbia%20Facts/Facts_2019.pdf


 * 2. https://opir.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Statistical%20Abstract/opir_faculty_history.pdf)


 * 3. https://opir.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Statistical%20Abstract/opir_enrollment_history.pdf

--HamiltonProject (talk) 18:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC) Why in the list and not in the body? Putting it in the list creates confusion... the alumni/OPIR websites erroneous and bizarrely don't list TC degrees, this is either a product of corruption or ineptitude but either way they are wrong about TC (the official Charters and Statutes make it clear all TC grads get CU diplomas). https://secretary.columbia.edu/files/secretary/university_charters_and_statutes/University%20Charters%20and%20Statutes_June%202013.pdf CU is officially divided into Faculties and TC is officially one of them, full stop. Directly from the Handbook: Academic Structure of the University The basic organizing units of the University are its 20 Faculties and 78 departments of instruction. The Faculties are commonly referred to as schools or colleges, depending upon historical circumstances. However, the terms are not synonymous, since some schools and colleges are units within larger Faculties. Academic activity is also conducted through administrative boards, institutes, interdepartmental programs, centers, and laboratories. The relationship between Faculties and departments is a complex one. In general, Faculties are responsible for curricular programs leading to degrees and certificates, while departments provide the instruction required by those programs. The focus of some Faculties is sufficiently limited that they are simultaneously departments, while others draw on many departments to meet their instructional needs. Conversely, some departments are part of more than one Faculty. Two affiliated institutions – Barnard College and Teachers College – are also Faculties of the University. The Faculty of Teachers College serves as the University’s Department of Education. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/vpaa/handbook/organization.html CUfiveo (talk) 18:44, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Dear, kindly help us by noticing that before calling them faculty of the uni the handbook mention about their affiliate status institute:- "Two affiliated institutions – Barnard College and Teachers College – are also Faculties of the University." in that case also we also needed to mention that these two are affiliate and the handbook nowwhere says that it can't be divided otherwise as you have already seen the University's website does divide it by its schools. Now kindly don't comeback to your "random website" argument; it is an official source by the uni for general people like us. And let me remind you; you just removed the affiliate note never divided in faculty. Anyways that does not matter if you did then also we needed to mention the affilite point. Bests ABCDE22 (talk) 18:53, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I can barely understand you, are you sure you should be editing? Either way, there is no good reason to list "affiliate" next to TC in the grad school listing... Columbia is officially divided into 20 Faculties and TC is one of them... CUfiveo (talk) 19:05, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes I think I should be editing but you should not as has been decided by admins. And plz pose you questions to your own university as they are always after the "affiliate" word. They just can't leave it in their official documents nor in their "random website" and I have already gave you advice regarding how to change it in my previous reply. ABCDE22 (talk) 19:20, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

So why does TC need to have "affiliate" shoved next to it on the list and not just explain it in the body? CUfiveo (talk) 19:12, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Because your uni is always after this word even in your only cited source and 7 official documents cited by u|HamiltonProject and created by Columbia. ABCDE22 (talk) 19:20, 13 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Actually I think you should be thankful that we are shoving "affiliate" next to it. Because your cited source mention the affiliate status first then the faculty status. 😆😆 ABCDE22 (talk) 19:23, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

HamiltonProject has 7 random websites that say TC is an affiliate... so what? TC is an official Faculty... Why do we need to shove "affiliate" next to TC in the list? CUfiveo (talk) 19:26, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I am open to discussing other wording such as "separately incorporated entity" (from the Official Policy), but there must be some sort of explanation why we have 15 schools on the list when Columbia says there are 14 schools including the medical center and 4 affiliates. Not all people shopping in-store will read the weekly circulars but everyone will look at where the apples are actually being sold. What you are basically saying is a Fuji is an apple anyway so it would be confusing to state the fact in-store where the apples are actually being sold, because we can say it on the weekly circular. Only after being told that there is a Fuji apple in a pile of Red Delicious apples most people start to actually examine carefully; if you are not told in-store, you may not even realize it.--HamiltonProject (talk) 19:27, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Because those are not random website those are official docs anyone with eyes can check that!! Anyways according to your argument, has 7 random website and you have one random handbook. 😂😂😂 ABCDE22 (talk) 19:29, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ABCDE22, I think it is a waste of time to continue arguing with CUfiveo because he was blocked by the admins for a reason (or reasons to be more precise). CUfiveo will continue to give his arguments that make no sense as he has a severe COI and is dogmatic. I think it is time to put an end to this non-sense and his fantasy world and close this debate since we reached consensus regarding Teachers College's status as an affiliate school. When you have new arguments that actually make sense, come back CUfiveo. I tried to give you reasons and explain why we need to write the facts but CUfiveo is someone who does not understand the basic principles of Wikipedia --HamiltonProject (talk) 19:34, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

We agree that what makes TC unique is its financial independence and that it has its own administration... so do you think readers looking at TC on the list need to be alerted of that right there and with just the problematic word "affiliate"? Putting that word there just creates confusion especially because it is redundant since TC's presence on the list already implies it's an affiliate(aka member)... it makes sense to note the situation in the body not the list since readers looking at the list care more about if they are getting a CU diploma(which all TC grads are granted) rather where their money inevitably ends up or who does the paperwork... CUfiveo (talk) 18:31, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You go to the supermarket and there is a Fuji apple in a pile of Red Delicious apples but in-store signs only say we have Red Delicious apples. Well, it was on the weekly circular that they are selling Fuji apples so you do not have to say it inside the store (they are both apples!), you say. I say, why not both; we write it on the weekly circular and also in-store where the apples are actually being sold! Otherwise, it will misread the buyers/readers. Hope this gives you a better understanding why we need to write the affiliate status on the list. --HamiltonProject (talk) 18:56, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I am open to discussing other wording such as "separately incorporated entity" (from the Official Policy), but there must be some sort of explanation why we have 15 schools on the list when Columbia says there are 14 schools including the medical center and 4 affiliates. Not all people shopping in-store will read the weekly circulars but everyone will look at where the apples are actually being sold. What you are basically saying is a Fuji is an apple anyway so it would be confusing to state the fact in-store where the apples are actually being sold, because we can say it on the weekly circular. Only after being told that there is a Fuji apple in a pile of Red Delicious apples most people start to actually examine carefully; if you are not told in-store, you may not even realize it. --HamiltonProject (talk) 19:15, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Terrible analogy... CUfiveo (talk) 19:14, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Explain why it is terrible then.--HamiltonProject (talk) 19:17, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I have a random question!! Do you really think has really been accepted at TC, Columbia??!! Anyways, he/she or they are blocked now for vendalism. So, its time for chill! 😊😊😊 ABCDE22 (talk) 19:47, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * He did say that he was accepted to Teachers College on my page and on El_C's page and I think it is true given we have witnessed his dogmatic beliefs.--HamiltonProject (talk) 19:55, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, lets rest now as you have suggested; which I might have remove mistakenly during the process of shifting! I apologise for that. ABCDE22 (talk) 20:00, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Enough strawmen already! Everything I say is backed by official University literature. I'm the opposite of dogmatic... I barely have a COI and it doesn't affect my objectivity at all... the answer is I got in over a decade ago but went somewhere else no bigger thanks than to the bullshit I kept reading on here! CUfiveo (talk) 20:16, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Lol!!!! Your argument is backed by uni's literature; the same uni's literature which's official document and website is "random website" to you!! Keep your drama up I am watching!! ABCDE22 (talk) 20:31, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

One of my cousins graduated from TC a few years ago too so I kinda have another COI... CUfiveo (talk) 21:47, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

When my cousin showed me his diploma I almost shat myself because it was straight up Columbia University... I thought it was going to be totally different thanks to what I read on wiki back in the day, and because of that I went to another school... so I'm am still pretty jealous/regretful I missed out on an Ivy League degree to be quite honest... that shouldn't happen to someone else and is why I try to edit the page... CUfiveo (talk) 02:50, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Lol!! Stop worrying about other; people are smarter then your expectation ; trust me on this. I am high a school even I got this point long ago!! Kindly now stop blaming you stupidity on wikipedia. Anyways now stop wasting our time as now even I don't have time for this drama!! Bests ABCDE22 (talk) 03:15, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

We cannot deal with a user blocked by the admins who has multiple severe COIs (CUfiveo). This is a person who has dogmatic beliefs due to having multiple severe COIs (see above, see my talk page and El_C's talk page for details) and someone who does not share basic principles of Wikipedia to write the facts he agreed was true. Having established a consensus that Teachers College is an affiliate (with at least 7 official documents published by Columbia U), we are closing the debate on this matter. For future editors: please refer to the past discussions and note that consensus has been established that Teachers College is an affiliate. This fact should be noted in the list. --HamiltonProject (talk) 03:30, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Concensus was gained that "affiliate" was redundantly listed next to TC and that TC is an official Faculty of Columbia too... I was blocked because these LIARS can't legitimately win an argument without having admins step in to protect their vandalism. HamiltonProject(sock puppet) and ABCDE22(a teenager with very poor English) both admitted to not even knowing what the word "affiliate" means they keep editing and keep citing the wording on random University websites as legit and making wildly false claims... it's hard to keep fixing the wiki according to the official Columbia University literature when it's at least 2 versus 1 and it makes it seem me/individuals are warring when we are just doing the right thing to make the wiki accurate... what is the point of this misinformation campaign anyway? The philosophy of these users is if you can't legitimately win an argument attack the person, and that is what keeps happening here... These two bully users need to be put in their place and find something better to do... CUfiveo (talk) 10:15, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That is just false. No consensus was gained for that. I categorically and unequivocally deny your baseless accusation that I am a sock puppet (in violation of WP:PA). This is the only account I have and admins are free to investigate if they wish. I do not understand why you can dismiss 7 official documents and websites published by various offices of Columbia University as "random websites" (they are official documents updated yearly) when the only source you give is a "random website" that is outdated (and even that source confirms Teachers College is an affiliate) and contains lots of inaccurate information (see above for a list of inaccurate info). You keep on making false accusations and that is the exact reason why we cannot continue to engage in a meaningful debate any longer. CUfiveo does not exhibit even a hint of being reasonable. If you stop making false accusations without any evidence whatsoever and start to be reasonable in admitting the 7 official university documents/websites we have, maybe we can talk again. But unless we share that basic fact, there is no way we can talk any further nor do I think it will be productive. Thank you very much, CUfiveo, and I wish you the very best in your future endeavors.--HamiltonProject (talk) 10:44, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@, LOL!! From where you get that is a sock puppet? It seems like you are attributing you own quality on, everyone knows who did it through IP!! Though I accept my typo mistakes but you don't need to be bother about it; in your age I would be far better then you because I am willing to learn. Even I think I am already better then you because I can read wikipedia policies and could understand those policies besides being able to differentiate official docs and random website. So don't worry about us. ABCDE22 (talk) 11:51, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

"Affiliate"
We agree what makes TC unique is its financial independence and that it has its own administration... so do you think readers looking at TC on the list need to be alerted of that right there and with just the problematic word "affiliate"?

Putting that word there just creates confusion especially because it is redundant since TC's presence on the list already implies it's an affiliate(aka member)... it makes sense to note the situation in the body not the list since readers looking at the list care more about if they are getting a CU diploma(which all TC grads are granted) rather where their money inevitably ends up or who does the paperwork...

The alumni/OPIR websites are erroneous and the OPIR bizarrely doesn't list TC degrees... this is either a product of corruption or ineptitude, but either way they are wrong about TC (the official Charters and Statutes make it clear all TC grads get CU diplomas). https://secretary.columbia.edu/files/secretary/university_charters_and_statutes/University%20Charters%20and%20Statutes_June%202013.pdf


 * CU is officially divided into Faculties and TC is officially one of them, full stop.

Directly from the Handbook: Academic Structure of the University The basic organizing units of the University are its 20 Faculties and 78 departments of instruction. The Faculties are commonly referred to as schools or colleges, depending upon historical circumstances. However, the terms are not synonymous, since some schools and colleges are units within larger Faculties. Academic activity is also conducted through administrative boards, institutes, interdepartmental programs, centers, and laboratories.

The relationship between Faculties and departments is a complex one. In general, Faculties are responsible for curricular programs leading to degrees and certificates, while departments provide the instruction required by those programs. The focus of some Faculties is sufficiently limited that they are simultaneously departments, while others draw on many departments to meet their instructional needs. Conversely, some departments are part of more than one Faculty.

Two affiliated institutions – Barnard College and Teachers College – are also Faculties of the University.

The Faculty of Teachers College serves as the University’s Department of Education.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/vpaa/handbook/organization.html CUfiveo (talk) 18:44, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Please justify why the word "affiliate" needs to be shoved into the list next to TC and not just described in the body. CUfiveo (talk) 19:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

See above for the apple analogy (I should not take up space for this multiple times)--HamiltonProject (talk) 19:46, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Columbia is officially 20 Faculties not 14 schools... CUfiveo (talk) 19:48, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Let's talk at the main section guys!! Its becoming more entartaining ABCDE22 (talk) 19:49, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

One of my cousin's graduated from TC a few years ago. When he showed me his diploma I almost shat myself because it was straight up Columbia University... I thought it was going to be totally different thanks to what I read on wiki almost a decade ago and because of that I went to another school... so I'm am still pretty jealous/regretful I missed out on an Ivy League degree to be quite honest... that shouldn't happen to someone else and is why I try to edit the page... CUfiveo (talk) 02:55, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Concensus was gained that "affiliate" was redundantly listed next to TC and that TC is an official Faculty of Columbia but that doesn't seem to matter... I was blocked because these LIARS can't legitimately win an argument without having admins step in to protect their vandalism. HamiltonProject(sock puppet) and ABCDE22(a teenager with very poor English) both admitted to not even knowing what the word "affiliate" means they keep editing and keep citing the wording on random University websites as legit and making wildly false claims... it's hard to keep fixing the wiki according to the official Columbia University literature when it's at least 2 versus 1 and it makes it seem me/individuals are warring when we are just doing the right thing to make the wiki accurate... what is the point of this misinformation campaign anyway? The philosophy of these users is if you can't legitimately win an argument attack the person, and that is what keeps happening here... These two bully users need to be put in their place and find something better to do... CUfiveo (talk) 10:29, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No consensus. See my response above. I can see the diff so no need to post the same thing twice. Thank you.--HamiltonProject (talk) 10:47, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

There was definitely concensus, you just don't want to change the wiki... everyone can go read where you unequivocally agreed to those things CUfiveo (talk) 12:03, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I encourage everyone to do that as well. Thank you. --HamiltonProject (talk) 12:26, 14 June 2020 (UTC)