Talk:Columbia University School of General Studies

Evaluation of Columbia Mature College (GS)
For the record, in 2006 I wrote here that this article should include critiques of the GS as the "back door" to Columbia, since there are many sources referring to the widespread opinion that that's what the GS is (due to the GS having much lower standards than Columbia College, and having a student body that is just very different from Columbia College students). You can't just pretend the GS is identical to Columbia College. Otherwise, this page feels like puffery, not encyclopedic. In the thirteen years since then, editors (many unsigned, who I can only assume are GS students) have deleted my two or three posts on this Talk page about this issue. To me, that reinforces the idea that this page is being used by cheerleaders of the GS to promote it, rather than by WP editors trying to completely and accurately describe an important institution to a general audience. Aroundthewayboy (talk) 03:36, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Sure, while we're at it, let's also discuss the disparities within CC. Let's include on Columbia College's page a section on athletic freshman and transfer admits who, as a general rule, are about as bright as a box of hammers. I mean, it's such a big controversy and this is an encyclopedia, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.242.6.231 (talk) 21:00, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Aroundthewayboy 23:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

This isn't really an apt comparison. Typically, CC applicants are ineligible to apply to GS and vice-versa. The exception to this is JTS students and actor/ballerina types. While the admission rates are higher at GS than CC, they are not always higher than SEAS, and its entirely unclear that that "quality" of students is lower (supposedly GS has the highest average GPA). Considering that a huge number of GS students are transfers (with time off) from Columbia's peer institutions, its probably very unlikely that there is much disparity between SAT scores and such--at least for those who started college right out of high school. Coffeemilk 09:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I am a current GS student and I'd like to add to this apples/oranges debate. CC students can be compared to well-oiled machines. They have been jumping through the hoops for so many years now that they usually just hit the ground running. GS students are, by nature, more rusty. I agree that some GS students are not up to par but I have also met many CC students who like, can't, like, understand why they have to take Art Hum. I've had several professors (notable ones) tell me they always enjoy papers written by GS students because they project more depth and experience than what their younger CC students can produce. Conversely, I have noticed that CC students do much better in the quantitative and hard science courses because they have been sharpened to a much higher extent than students who have not had to maintain the type of thinking required to excel in such fields.

CC students are top notch and deserve the opportunities they have worked so hard to attain. They are also the product of a life process that requires things such as access to good schools, strong parenting, money, and a greater capacity/opportunity for early maturity. The pressure is intense beyond belief. No argument there. There is probably a good argument in stating that CC students have made more sacrifices than GS students in order to attain their seat in class, too. Who knows? To make a case for CC being superior to GS due simply to a difference in application standards is to make a case for Darwinism, though. Higher education exists in order to empower anyone who seeks it out. To limit its opportunities to those who "survived the best" early in life condemns higher education to the same elitist myopia so often displayed in the worlds of business and politics. Higher education should be an exception to the institution of Darwinism and programs such as GS represent prime examples of such logic.


 * I've edited the page to address these issues to provide, as you say, "as full background information and context as possible." Finally, judging an entire school based on a single graduate—as you do with Kelly Bensimon—is somewhat peremptory. Elibrisomnia (talk) 20:43, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Aroundthewayboy (talk) 03:24, 1 July 2009 (:::::Encyclopedias should cite credible sources, not just anyone who says something. And what’s cited shouldn’t be taken out of context—the full quote from the Spectator article is “There seems to be this minority
 * (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/08/05/honorands.html).Elibrisomnia (talk) 21:34, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If you really want to disparage GS, consider the fact that the average age of a GS student is around 28. From what I've read, GS graduates are hired comparably to CC graduates, ignoring certain life experience factors, but GS students exit around age 30 whereas CC students gain their first opportunity to really enter the workforce at 22. The way I, as a prospective GS student, view the matter is that GS offers a second chance to qualified applicants, but it remains a second chance to people who've hit the hoops the first time around.


 * Beyond that, if you consider that there is more to life than pure smarts (Harvard College undergraduates, for instance, have an average 136 IQ according to some studies, when 136 IQ represents a Z-score of a tiny bit above 2 and Harvard admissions rates for 2400 SAT corresponds to a Z-score of ~3.9 or higher), GS students may be qualified in other ways, and the wise CC student will take advantage of that by seeking to exploit GS students' life experience. After all, one of the biggest reasons to attend an Ivy is the other students; not only do you use them for networking opportunities, you can also exploit their unique experiences. In my readings, a small percentage of HC acceptees DO decide that they would prefer CC instead, and one of the reasons for that is the diversity of the student base, and for similar reasons, while Wharton grads are often hired preferentially to CC grads, some who get in choose to ditch University City for Morningside Heights instead. Why? Because Columbia is New York, and Columbia has a more diverse and interesting student body. GS students are part of the core Columbia experience, and you can't get that out at Penn. 76.101.249.145 (talk) 00:25, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

GS is the most diverse undergraduate college when it comes to nationality, age and family backgrounds. SAT scores are naturally lower for international applicants, older applicants and applicants from low-income homes -- thus, it is natural that GS does not publish these scores. Indeed, for all these three categories of students they are not deemed to accurately measure scholastic ability. If you are 45 years old, your life experiences will be more important in admission than SAT scores; it is simply not a very relevant variable -- unlike it is for say CC students, with 90% American students, applying straight out of high school. In the end, GS is the school with the highest GPA -- if CC was so much more difficult to get into, then how do you explain this fact? And, perhaps CC ought to be even more difficult to get into, as the quality of their applicants, with a 10 percent admission rate, does still not measure up to a GS student when it comes to performance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.22.241.72 (talk) 20:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Other
Major school of columbia university, page needs expansion. -- 05:35, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like the article is measuring inputs instead of outputs. While admission criteria is different between GS and CC (age apart, most CC students would not be admitted to GS), far more GS students attend top graduate schools than GS. The Post Bac program at GS alone places more students in top medical schools than any school in the country. Regardless, the fact remains that GS is the highest performing college at Columbia. This is evidenced in the percentage of students with GPA's of 3.85 and hight compared to CC, SEAS and Barnard. Considering GS students take the same classes alongside CC students, then GS must be doing something right. Moreover, GS is a fully integrated undergraduate college at Columbia. It is perfectly acceptable to say "I graduated from Columbia University" regardless of whether one is a SEAS, CC or GS student. Furthermore, many top graduate programs (Harvard Law for example) actually prefer GS students, and therefore accept far more GS students into their rank than CC students. Employers also seek out Columbia grads, and GS in specific. Any animosity between CC and GS originates in CC, and comes from CC students who are completely unaware and/or jealous about GS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Christoven123 (talk • contribs) 01:08, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Harvard Extension
I reverted the entry on Havard Extension because the school is different in nature to the Yale, Brown, and Columbia programs. The two main differences being (1) Admission to Harvard Extension is open enrollment, and admission to a degree program within H.E. is granted as a matter of course. This is not the case for the other three. (2) Harvard sets aside a separate faculty for extension courses. At Columbia GS, CC, and GSAS share a single faculty. Brown REUs are part of Brown College, and the same goes for Yale special students. Coffeemilk 01:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * the harvard extension school has open enrollment for people who want to just take a class or two but has a nominal admissions process including foundation courses for people who want to be what they call a degree candidate and recieve a bachelors or a masters. most of the extension faculty are full time harvard college profs who teach at the extension school as well as the college or the graduate school. most of the extension school classes are run from the same syllabi as the college or the graduate school. its close but not exactly the same as GS.


 * Penn also has a College of General Studies like columbia. students study during the day with the reg students.

>Penn does have a College of General Studies, but the students are not integrated into the curriculum the same way that GS students are at Columbia. Penn GS students have a separate faculty, and require special permission to take classes during the day within the traditional undergraduate college.


 * It should be noted that while the Extension School's open enrollment classes are what constitute its bread and butter, degree candidates who go through their admissions process are counted as Harvard University students as well as Harvard Extension students.Extension just becomes their affiliation i.e. 'College' or GSAS. People taking open enrollment classes do not have that privilage. The only difference between Harvard and Columbia GS is that a prospective student has to meet a certain GPA requirement by taking HARVARD classes. This process alone is rigorous and costly. Secondly, I emailed the Extension School regarding thier Bachelors program and they indicated to me that there is "no such thing as an Extension School degree and that all courses taken through the Extension School by degree candidates count toward a Harvard University degree". The professors are the same as Harvard College or GSAS professors, the school operates under the FAS umbrella, it has its own crest, and many courses are exactly the same as the College Courses. They also told me that if a student maintains a 3.33 GPA after two semesters (or after 32 credits), he or she can take a maximum of 2 Harvard College or GSAS courses during the day a semester. I am not trying to over promote the Extension School but I am trying to say that while Columbia GS and Harvard's ES operate in different ways, they still share the same mission. MORE so than Brown or Yale which fully integrate their students into the DAY program. And besides Columbia GS students aren't fully integrated as this article would make one think. GS students cannot even use the CC career services, they have to use their own. Atleast the Extension School allows a student to use the Harvard College Career Services and the Harvard University Alumni Association.


 * I'm impressioned that HES is less prestigious than CSGS, despite HES being Harvard and CSGS being Columbia. CSGS is way closer to a proper CC degree, in that CSGS students attend the exact same courses as CC students, barring 3 classes in the Core Curriculum for which they have equivalents. HES, on the other hand, provides separate classes for HES students and provides a degree in "Extension Studies" granted by Harvard University instead of Harvard College. Harvard knows how to protect its brand; a school where anyone can enroll and many can get in would greatly destroy the prestige of Harvard College itself if it were fully comparable, whereas Columbia takes more chances by having a program that, while being highly selective for non-traditional students, allows them to attend the same classes as Columbia College students and presents them with an essentially comparable degree.


 * I am also convinced that HES students often try to delude themselves that HES is real Harvard, when HES degree programs are closer to Harvard's Corporate Social Responsibility program, by allowing qualified community members, including non-teaching members of the staff (is faculty appropriate?), to obtain a Harvard-certified degree at a discount rate. From reports given, HES classes are definitely not identical in rigor to Harvard College, not simply because the student body is less selective and thus less competitive, but also because the instructors were told to adapt to the lesser abilities of the student base. Columbia is not at the same level as Harvard in terms of prestige and possibly quality of instruction, but it's the real thing, as opposed to something watered down. That said, both HES and Columbia provide important functions in the American tertiary education system. Both are oriented towards non-Trads, but HES offers a more flexible program, a better alumni network, as well as better continuing education options, while CSGS, in my view, offers the better degree. 76.101.249.145 (talk) 00:50, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

This last paragraph on Harvard misses the point. GS students education is identical--there is no day program. That is, the students are mixed into the same classes, which is not the case at Extension schools. The education at Harvard, et al, is not identical because of this reason. It doesn't matter what umbrella it operates under. They are also not the same mission; it is not extension. The school of continuing education at Columbia fulfills that mission. And "many courses are exactly the same" simply highlights that they are separate at Harvard. At Columbia, they are not separate. Finally, schools do not confer degrees, only the trustees do, at the recommendation of Deans of the schools/colleges. The schools recommend them. Therefore, of course, the degree is Harvard University, in the same way that a certificate would be. This point fails to address the issue at hand.

recent updates
The page was recently updated, and the two major changes are:
 * A new picture of the School’s logo.
 * a Notable Alumni and Attendees section.

I think that the picture that was added is outdated. If anything, we should add the current seal, not the sketch that was the basis for the current seal.

Also, I object to the addition of Notable Alumni and Attendees. This is going to make the article unecissaraly long (as future editors add who they consider to be famous). In additiona, we will also have editing wars over who is and who is not important enough to be included. Instead, I recommend manking this list into a category, so that the information is acceable, but not part of the main article. Before I make these changes, I wanted to see if there are objections or better suggerstions.

Best. Matan 14:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I think we should keep Notable Alumni/Attendees. It should be cleaned up a bit. I'm not clear why the author of 1 novel need be included. I would remove:

Irma B. Jaffe Philippe I. Reines Max Aguilera-Hellweg Joe Connelly

Any objections? I think with these removals and you've got people of note and the top of their field. I'm ambivalent regarding Mac Borg.

-ws Wwsnyc 20:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Recent updates

I am unable to find any recent logos freely available online, except for the logo that is the GS Student Council's. You can take off the one I added if you wish. With regards to Notable Alumni and Attendees, I am simply going with the wikipedia convention of adding an alumni section to any article about specific colleges. It is on the Wikipedia entries for Columbia University's undegraduate schools, Columbia College, SEAS and Barnard.

Adc
 * I changed the shield image. As for the Notable Alumni and Attendees, since no one else seems to mind, lets keep it for now. If it gets too much, we can re-open the issue. Best, Matan 04:01, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Current Students
I wonder about the advisability of listing current students. If these students were listed without their knowledge, it's creepy (even if the information does come from items published on the GS or Columbia websites or in school newspapers such as the Spectator or the Record). If they listed themselves, it's a little sad. In either case, I wonder what the encyclopedic value of this section is. 160.39.247.200 19:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Im the one who added the section. Looking at it now it doesnt seem to be beneficial. Any thoughts before I go ahead and delete it? 06:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I would remove the current students section. The alumni section can also use some trimming... Matan 15:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

links to "cu-wiki"
To the anonymous user who is adding links to the “cu wiki,” please read this section to understand why I removed it: External links

Best, Matan 20:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Dear user 207.237.223.150. Usually, I would agree with you and ask to remove the "GS Lounge" link from this article. However, the GSSC made the "GS Lounge" into its official website (at least for the 2006-7 year). Feel free to visit www.columbia.edu/cu/gssc/, which redirects to the "GS Lounge." When www.columbia.edu/about_columbia/index.html will redirect to WikiCU, I will be the first person to include WikiCU in this article. Until then, good luck with your exams & papers, and have a nice day. Matan 01:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. GS Lounge is not registered to the university. Your criteria is arbitrary. 207.237.223.150 03:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, you make a good point. So I am removing the direct link to the GS Lounge, and keeping only the link to the GSSC website (hosted on the CU server), which currently redirects to the GS Lounge page. I am also removing the link to WikiCU. Please try to comply with this policy. Thank you, Matan 14:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The GS handbook?
It seems like a user pasted a lot of information from the GS handbook about requirements, policies, etc. This is problematic for two reasons: 1) It is plagiarism. 2) It is not encyclopedia-style info. We have a link to the GS homepage, and people can find out if they can fulfill the language requirement with an SAT II score by going to the source. I am planning on removing all this new information within the next two days, unless someone can show me that this 1) does not violate the school's copyright info, and 2) should be part of Wikipedia. Best, Matan 18:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed the plagiarized info that was copied from GS’s Viewbook. We can’t have plagiarism on Wikipedia, see Copyright problems. In addition, if someone wants to read about which classes fulfill the literature requirement, or about the need to consulate with a GS advisor before declaring a major, she or he can read the most updated info on the GS website. This should not be part of an encyclopedia. Matan 01:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Columbia Students for International Service
I am unfamiliar with this group, and I doubt that it is a "GS Group." Before removing it, I wanted to know if anyone can point to it qualifying as a "GS Group" and that it indeed exists. Matan 01:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, no response, so I will remove it. Matan 23:13, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Edward Klein
Although Edward Klein did attend Colgate, he graduated from the School of General Studies. See his New York Times wedding announcement (10/25/87, "Dolores Barrett Wed to Edward Klein"). http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3DA1338F936A15753C1A961948260 128.59.207.9 19:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Why is the GS compared to Yale and Brown?
Ok this article is a little bias. Columbia GS is nothing at all like Yale's Eli Whitney Program or Brown's Resumed Undergraduate Edcuation Program. Both of those programs are reserved for non-traditional students over 21 (Brown has it at over 25) with exceptional work or life experience that are returning to school. Those programs only allow about 5-10 people a year, they're not really non-traditional programs lile Columbia GS. At any rate, the comparison is flimsy because Yale and Brown's program fully integrate their students into the DAY program. Columbia GS's real counterparts, it's "peer" schools, are Penn College of General Studies, Harvard's Extension School, and Washington University's University College. There is also Georgetown's School of Liberal Studies that rightly mirror both Columbia and Harvard's program. This is in no way shape or form dismissing Columbia GS, in fact getting into any of these non-traditional programs at an ivy league caliber school is tough and costly. But it is disheartening to see that this article is trying to make Columbia GS look like its shares a different mission than that of Penn or Harvard.


 * GS also fully integrates its students into the day program. The school has largely done away with GS-only night classes. In fact, I think it is 2-3 classes tops at this point. Aatombomb (talk) 18:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * GS is similar to Penn and Harvard's program. Atleast more so than Brown or Yale's. Doesn't make the program any less prestigious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.7.101.84 (talk) 01:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

A GS student can take the same classes with the same teachers that CC students can. A typical class is made up of GS, CC, and SEAS students. I just registered for my Fall classes at Columbia, and all my classes are during the day. There are no classes that a CC student can register for that a GS student can't. The only class that is purely GS students is University Writing, but it is the same coursework as the University Writing class CC students take. The schools separate GS and CC students for this class because every student must take it their first semester there, and it provides a nice transition for GS students to be with purely GS students. Besides that class, I am unaware of any classes that CC students can register that GS students can't. Also, I am pretty sure that I would be able to take University Writing with CC students if I requested it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.232.117.103 (talk) 23:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

"There are no classes that a CC student can register for that a GS student can't." This statement is wrong. Here is an example course where GS students are not allowed. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/HUMA/C1002-20111-001/

In fact, GS like Harvard Extension School because GS and Continuing Education students take the same course with the same faculty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zxcvpoiu (talk • contribs) 13:22, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


 * This Talk Page is a mess, and it is clearly made by inexperienced WP editors (who keep doing things against the spirit of WP, such as deleting other editors' comments without permission or notification. This contributes to my strong feeling that the GS page is full of misleading self-promotion (written by GS students), which is against the rules of WP. Aroundthewayboy (talk) 03:46, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * FUR has been added. Aatombomb (talk) 18:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

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