Talk:Command and obedience in the Bundeswehr

Military courts
Germany has two military courts that were created in 2006. See the legal act here (German): http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/errv/BJNR126200006.html 149.154.154.231 (talk) 22:38, 28 July 2012 (UTC)


 * A Truppendienstgericht is not a military court (Wehrgericht/Militärgericht). Please compare the German article which says:

"" Die Bundeswehr hat keine eigenen Wehrgerichte, ihre Angehörigen unterliegen der zivilen Gerichtsbarkeit. Für die Entscheidungen nach der Wehrdisziplinarordnung und der Wehrbeschwerdeordnung sind aber besonders eingerichtete Truppendienstgerichte zuständig. Der Art. 96 (2) des Grundgesetz lässt eigene Wehrstrafgerichte für den Verteidigungsfall, für Auslandseinsätze sowie für Schiffe auf Hoher See zu, bislang wurden diese jedoch nicht eingerichtet.

Die Schwarz-Gelbe Koalition plant seit 2012 die Einführung einer zentralen Militärgerichtsbarkeit für Straftaten von Soldaten im Auslandseinsatz mit Sitz in Kempten.""

--Gamsbart (talk) 05:49, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * To quote the english version of Wikipedia: "Most militaries maintain a court-martial system to try cases in which a breach of military discipline may have occurred." The german military law is divided into two parts the criminal law which is handled by the civil courts and the disciplinary law which is handled by the military courts. The Truppendienstgerichte have jurisdiction just for military crimes like cowardice, desertion, and insubordination. Still they are military courts. The German text you are citing (which I guess you are capable of understanding) is just doing this exact division between criminal law (Wehr_straf_gericht) and disciplinary law (Truppendienstgericht). The Truppendientgericht is working like a normal court with the difference that it has jurisdiction just for military casses regarding disciplinary actions. Still you have a judge who is supported by two soldiers, a prosecutor and an attorney for the soldier in question.


 * Both courts even have a page on the German Wikipedia: North: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truppendienstgericht_Nord and South: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truppendienstgericht_S%C3%BCd 149.154.154.231 (talk) 22:18, 28 July 2012 (UTC)149.154.154.231 (talk) 16:16, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * And the appeals process of both of these "courts" goes to the Federal Administrative Court, indicating that they are not an independent military court system but part of the civil administration. Every employer necessarily has a mode of operations with which they decide on how to react to perceived failures to fulfill obligations under the employment contract. Given the nature of the armed forces AND the history of Germany, the process is here is more elaborate. --91.67.245.87 (talk) 17:03, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Severe consequences
''Subordinates who do not execute military orders with claim to obedience may be punished with imprisonment up to three years (in particularly serious cases up to five years), if they acted negligently. "Severe consequences" means aggravated battery, a restriction on the German armed forces.[10] ''

These sentences are difficult to understand.

I suggest that the first sentence should read as follows:

''Subordinates who do not execute military orders with claim to obedience may be punished with imprisonment up to three years (in cases with "severe consequences" up to five years).

The second sentence should read:

"Severe consequences" means that the result of the disobedience either would have grave consequences for the security of the Bundesrepublik or for the combat worthiness of the forces, or that it caused death or severe bodily harm to another person.

I suppose my English needs corrections, so I will not attempt to change the text myself.

84.23.155.84 (talk) 15:31, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the proposed change. 178.201.29.46 (talk) 23:33, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I have changed the article accordingly, replacing Bundesrepublik with Germany.93.192.233.93 (talk) 10:28, 11 May 2015 (UTC)