Talk:Commentary on Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid

Untitled
Please see Talk:Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid and Talk:Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid/draft version. Thank you. --NYScholar 12:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The word "merged" isn't quite right; see my editorial interpolation in the editing mode in this article. What I have in mind is cross-linking the two articles, this one and the "draft" of the article on the book, via a cross-ref. supplied in the section on "Critical reactions and commentaries" in the main article on the book (both long version and "draft" version have that section, but the "draft" version has the material moved from it to this article "Commentary...." --NYScholar 13:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

In the past, in the archive talk pages of the article Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid, several editors have expressed concern that this kind of structure leads to increasing adding on of examples; notice that there are already a lot of them; there is a sort of balance if one considers that the first two book reviews do contain negative comments on the book. It is not advisable to continue tacking on commentary upon commentary (tit for tat, e.g.); one needs to evaluate the sources' value (credibility, reliability, notability, representativeness, etc.) and now to scrutinize what is included with an eye for neutral presentation and conciseness. There are editors who have expressed a desire to restructure this part of the article more topically; that could be problematic because it would probably result in trying to find similiarities among what in at least some cases are rather idiosyncratic comments on the book. To do that would be to distort what those commentaries state.

We provided the introductory section to define some prevailing recurrent topical patterns (recurrent themes, motifs) in the reviews and other commentaries on the book. Perhaps some editors could work on trying to decide on a possible more topical organization that would also maintain neutrality and yet reduce verbiage or numbers of examples. Just some thoughts. --NYScholar 17:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Rename to: Controversy on "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid"
The article on the book should just speak about the book and any reviews that are not merely limited to condemning Carter. This article should be renamed from Commentary to Controversy as things like 14 people quitting is more than just commentary and words but political action.--Wowaconia 06:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Any commentary from notable figures should not be deleted, if length gets to be a problem make a sub-page. So this sub-page would be renamed "Controversy..." and if the collection of commentary quotes here becomes too long than that could be made into another sub-page called "Commentary.." or two sub-pages one for notable individuals and one for notable groups. As long as its quotes and refs are made its not POV; its reporting. If there was an article called "Shia opinion of Saddam Hussein" it would not be POV even if the vast, vast majority said nothing but bad things. Quoting notable people and groups is not POV.--Wowaconia 06:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I adamantly do not support renaming this main article as "Controversy...." That is not NPOV; more neutral language is necessary so as not to violate Neutral point of view. The people who resigned wrote letters commenting on their resignations and on the book directly. note the use of "commentary" in para. 2 above. Obviously, this article (which is to be a "main article" (see the links) not a "sub page" cannot be called "Controversy." For a precedent see the history of the naming of the article Plame affair.  Renaming any such article "Controversy" is asking for trouble.  This article clearly states what it concerns: "Commentary on Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid (New York: Simon and Schuster, 2006) summarizes and illustrates some representative critical reaction to and commentary on this book by former president Jimmy Carter, which has been highly controversial." --NYScholar 07:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

How about "Reactions to..."? AnonMoos 07:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

See sentence quoted above: "Reactions to" is not broad enough to include both ". . . critical reaction to and commentary on"; whereas "Commentary on. . . ." is broad enough to include both "reactions to and commentary on" and to include "criticism" and "book reviews"; I don't have a particular problem with "reactions" otherwise, but I think that it is too limiting a category, potentially would raise some kinds of "reactions" that are POV from various users who would drop in to post them, creating possibly vast problems, and that "commentary" is broader and more neutral. --NYScholar 23:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Relevant content for this article
I generally support the idea of moving some of the content out from the parent article in to one or more articles for readability purposes. I have a concern with this version because it lacks Carter's response, which is pretty relevant to this information. The proposed version would also leave a much longer response than description of criticism in the main article, which doesn't seem like a very logical layout to me. Just my two cents. If we included Carter's response here, I don't know if that would require renaming the article to something more appropriate. --YoYoDa1 19:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Added a cross-link to "Carter's response to criticism of the book"; see the article. Thanks. --NYScholar 23:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Consensus reached?
See Talk:Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid. --NYScholar 23:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

See updates at Talk:Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid/draft version. --NYScholar 15:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikiquote
I created a sample Wikiquote page (for purposes of illustration) in the event that the consensus reached is rather to have a short page or section re: "Critical reactions and commentaries on the book" in the longer article Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid and to add a Wikiquotes template tag to it. Then there could just be a paragraph of introduction (as in the first paragraph of that section) w/ such a tagged template to Wikiquote. The format of that Wikiquote page needs more work, but that is an illustration of its potential usefulness in resolving some of the arguments about the quotations alluded to in the talk pages of the main long (too-long?) article, where people complain of a so-called "quotefarm". --NYScholar 22:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Fifteen resign
--Shamir1 01:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The text of the letter is already linked in the New York Times article cited (The Lede) in the main article and in the section dealing with the Carter Center's Board of Councilors. (See note 38 in Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid and note 36 in this article and note 34 in the Wikiquote.; see also the references section (cross-linked in this article). Comparable articles incorporating links to the letter (and also from SPME) are already cited in the introduction and elsewhere in the article Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid/draft version and Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.  It refers to "over a dozen resignations"; if one says "fifteen" and more people resign, one continually has to revise the number.  "Over fourteen" would do but is awkward.  The earlier resignation (prior to the 14 more) was Stein's I think (first, then 14 more), and he has a considerable amount of space devoted to him in this article.  The fourteen resignations apparently followed his.  Maybe this could be clearer.  Someone else can work on it if deemed necessary.  I added brackets so your link posts as an external link now.  I, you, or someone else can look into seeing how else possibly to incorporate it if not already cited in the article, in proper prevailing citation format.  Please check the sources about these (additional fourteen) resignations already cited. Thanks. --NYScholar 01:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's the NYT pdf link to the letter: (79.4 KiB). --NYScholar 02:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The members of the Board of Councilors of the Carter Center who resigned according to that letter are: Alan Abrams, Steve Berman, Michael Coles, Jon Golden, Doug Hertz, Barbara Babbit Kaufman, Liane Levetan, Jeff Levy, Leon Novak, Ambassador William B. Schwartz Jr., William B. Schwartz III, Steve Selig, Cathey Steinberg, Gail Solomon.

One more to make fifteen is Kenneth W. Stein. --NYScholar 02:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Removal of photo of one of Carter's critics
Removed the photo of the critic w/ the caption quoting his criticism; not in keeping with Neutral point of view; the privileging of that critic's criticism through linkage of his image and caption is POV editing; removal of this image was already discussed in archived talk page of main article from which this "Commentary" has been split off. See the talk pages before adding content to this and related articles. There are various tags on the article indicating the controversial nature of the subject and the reason for increased vigilance about neutrality and avoidance of POV editing throughout articles about this subject. --NYScholar 13:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

"Bases" is the plural of "basis"
[moved from the article Palestine Peace Not Apartheid by anonymous IP; re-copied for accuracy; the anon IP omitted my reply. --NYScholar 10:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)]

An anon IP user changed what was a correct spelling to an incorrect word. The word intended is "bases," the plural form of the word "basis." See Basis definition. "Bases" is not a typographical error; it is the word that I intend to use in that sentence (Dugard in "Academics"). --NYScholar 02:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello, Yes, Bases may be the plural of basis. But I don't believe the word belongs in that sentence. Please review the last sentence of definition 4 below. It says "He was chosen on the basis of his college grades." It does not say "grade" which is singular, but rather "grades", which is plural. However, to insert "bases" does not do the english language justice. Language is not a science. It is more of a living thing, always changing, flexible. Therefore, it may be prudent to present the material without deviating from common english. To substitute bases for basis would sound like this: "He was chosen on the bases of his college grades." This is misleading. It suggests to the reader that the subject of the sentence was playing baseball or on a military base. Please refer to www.dictionary.com. Below is simply a pasted definition of the word for you. I hope you'll agree. Thank you. Anonymous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.90.92 (talk • contribs) 21:58, February 15, 2007 (UTC)
 * ba·sis     /ˈbeɪsɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bey-sis] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun, plural -ses  /-siz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[-seez] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation.
 * 1. the bottom or base of anything; the part on which something stands or rests.
 * 2. anything upon which something is based; fundamental principle; groundwork.
 * 3. the principal constituent; fundamental ingredient.
 * 4. a basic fact, amount, standard, etc., used in making computations, reaching conclusions, or the like: The nurse is paid on an hourly basis. He was chosen on the basis of his college grades.
 * 5. Mathematics. a set of linearly independent elements of a given vector space having the property that every element of the space can be written as a linear combination of the elements of the set. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.90.92 (talk • contribs) 21:45, February 15, 2007(UTC)


 * The plural form of the word "basis" is clearly "bases." (See "-ses": that's the plural form.) If one is talking about more than one "basis," e.g., two or more "bases" (as I was in that sentence), one uses the plural form.  Your example is not related to the sentence in which "bases" appears.  It could be re-written to use an entirely different word or construction for the sentence perhaps.  But I can't take the time to do that now. --NYScholar 03:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC) [added threading to the comments.--NYScholar 03:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)]
 * I removed the word entirely, since the singular form does not convey my intended meaning. The second source cited makes Dugard's support for the bases of the analogy clear; the first source is no longer accessible to non-subscribers of the newspaper. (This subject relates now only to the article Commentary on Palestine Peace Not Apartheid, not to this article, since the splitting of this article in a longer version has been approved by an administrator and occurred (see below). --NYScholar 03:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think its better this way (removal). What troubles me is that the first source is no longer accessible- to me at least, and the second does not address Carter's book.  A citation from the first source of Dugard referencing Carter's book specifically would be nice, but J Stor would be nice too. If the shoe was on the other foot, this matter would annoy me. I kinda like Carter you see. Thanks. [Please sign your comments with 4 tildes.] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.90.92 (talk • contribs) 17:54, February 16, 2007 (UTC)


 * I've added an accessible version of the article as well and, after checking its content, elaborated a quotation from it for greater clarity of development. (Whether one "likes" Carter is not germane; the editors of this and other Wikipedia articles are striving to achieve the goals presented in Neutral point of view.  (Again: please see talk header information above and please sign your comments with 4 tildes.) [Also: Talk pages are only for discussion of making improvements to the article, not for discussion of its subject or how one feels about it.] --NYScholar 04:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Paul Findley's Op-Ed on Carter book
Paul Findley,  --64.230.121.192 18:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I just added this source in bibliographical format to the main article Palestine Peace Not Apartheid. I had already moved the anon IP user's comment here, but realized later that the user probably intended people to consider adding the source to the appropriate sec. of the references list, which I did. Hope that's okay. --NYScholar 20:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Deborah Lipstadt
Added in Lipstadts accusation of "soft-core denial" against Carter. Not sure why Lipstadt isnt listed as an academic/journalist critic already. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DJSemtex (talk • contribs) 15:50, February 10, 2007 (UTC)


 * She's an academic. Quotations from Lipstadt (along with linked sources) are already in Wikiquote regarding both the book and commentary about the book: see Wikiquote: Negative...Academics.  This article includes "selected" negative comments, not every single negative comment: Please read the archived talk pages for this article and the article Palestine Peace Not Apartheid; consensus is to avoid a so-called "quotefarm".  This material does not need repetition in this article.  (See the replies to your unsigned comments already made in the article on the book.)  Lipstadt's article about Carter's book is also already listed in the references; her name is linked and the discussion is already in a section of the article on her.  See the tag re: WP:BLP as well.  "Accusation[s]" against a living person are libelous and putting them in an article on a living person for the sake of putting in such "accusation[s]" violates Wikipedia policy.  She is already listed both in Wikiquote (Please click on the link to it in the main articles) and in the references list and in the link to her own article (Please read it).  I do not think that this is notable enough to highlight further; it is already accessible in the article about her, with corrected citations.--NYScholar 08:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Please See previous comments on the page of the main article and please sign and date comments. If you are a new user, please consult Wikipedia guidelines, including talk page header links. If you do add material, you need to do so in a manner consistent with the hard work on citations formatting that others preceding you have done. The format needs to be consistent. Do not just toss in external links and unclear citations. Authors, titles, publications, dates of publication, and dated accessed are necessary in notes format. All that material re: Lipstadt's quotation is already provided in Wikiquote. Please read it. And please sign your comments with four tildes in Wikipedia format. (See talkheader.) Thank you. --NYScholar 08:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Despite my own sense that the material is already covered well in Wikiquote, I've added some development on Lipstadt to the article as economically as I could, giving full citations to the sources in the prevailing format for this article. --NYScholar 14:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

As tagged above (tag "Controversial"): "This is a controversial topic, which may be under dispute. Please read this talk page [including archived talk pages] and discuss substantial changes here before making them.  Make sure you supply full citations when adding information to highly controversial articles." --NYScholar 15:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Removal of personal attack
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to attack other editors. Please comment on the contributions and not the contributors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. (Personal attack removed) --NYScholar 13:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Removal of obvious vandalism
By 69.229.8.34. Warning to this user. You will be blocked if you persist in this behavior. --NYScholar 08:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Shulamit Aloni's "aparatheid" quote
NYScholar, why did you delete my quote of Shulamit Aloni arguing that Israel has "apartheid"? It supports Yossi Beilin's acknowledgement that Israelis themselves use that kind of criticism. This is an important issue, because Americans were accusing Carter of anti-Semitism by using the word "apartheid". This shows that even notable Israelis like Aloni, a former Knesset member, use the word "apartheid" themselves to describe Israeli policies, just as Carter does. Nbauman 05:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't belong elaborated in this article. If you want to discuss it in detail, put it in the cross-linked article on her. This article is on the book. Read the citation in the footnote. The source is cited. There is a link to Yossi Beilin and to Shulamit Aloni in the citations to their articles; people can read what Aloni thinks in more detail in her own article. The point about Israelis' agreeing w/ some aspects of Carter's pov is already in the summary paragraph toward the top of page. Please scroll up; note to her work is there too I think. (I thought I added it in response to your earlier comments.) I'll check again later. The point was already made quite some time ago. Your addition to this is not new. This article is about selected representative views; every single example is not going to be explored in detail. It's enough to cite them in notes. People can read the source article for such detailed explanations. --NYScholar 12:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Just re-checked the paragraph. Yes, note 9 is still there; it links to the title of her article, which makes her point clearly.  Anyone who wants details can read the cited source.  No more is needed. Note 9 is cited twice; in both places where the topic occurs. --NYScholar 12:43, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The quotation you supplied went off topic in its own direction. I linked her name; I added a brief sentence about who she was in note 9 before you wrote this comment.  Please read the whole note and click on all links there.  The subject is well covered via those links. If you want, follow the format already in Wikiquote and add her quotation and note citation there in a way that is parallel to rest of that format.  Anyone who clicks on Wikiquote will be able to read a quotation that she might be making directly about the book; but the quotation has to be directly about the book; what you supplied was generally about apartheid, not the book per se.  The title of her article concisely presents her perspective on the book; one realizes that she is answering a question posed about Carter's use of the word apartheid. It's clear enough, I think, as it is. --NYScholar 12:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Dennis Ross
[moved from my personal talk page. --NYScholar 06:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)] Hi, this is vital but missing from Palestine Peace Not Apartheid. Please take the time to add the bulk of the op-ed to the article, or let me know if you can't. Thank you. --Shamir1 03:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've been watching the Academy Awards and just saw this message before turning off my computer for the night. I don't agree that there is any justification "to add the bulk of the op-ed to the article" (that would be POV pushing). Quotations from Ross's earlier interview etc. are already in the part of the main article (Commentary) on his views.  I have added a source reference that should suffice.  The source is an op-ed; I've added it as a source in the appropriate sec. of references in the main article on the book and as a note citation in the main article on commentary on the book.  It is now referred to.  Any more would be POV pushing.  You might choose a short quotation and add it to Wikiquote for the Commentary article following the format there.  The Wikiquote is a selection of representative positive and negative comments re: the book. [Note: To Shamir and others: I have moved this exchange to the talk page of the article.  Please place such comments in the talk pages of articles in the future and not on my personal talk page.  You can easily bring a source to the attention of everyone else reading the talk page.  Thank you.  --NYScholar 06:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)]

Personal blog post (Reliable source?)
Moved here for discussion as to whether or not this personal blog post is citable given Reliable sources in an article pertaining to a living person;: WP:BLP and Guidelines for controversial articles:

<< Martin Peretz, editor-in-chief of The New Republic, includes a short review in his personal blog, stating:"And it's not just that he admired Hafez Assad, admired him more than any other poltical leader--Carter called him a 'statesman'-- in the region. Or that he always had good words to say about Arafat. Or that he now has good words to say about Hamas. He almost never has a sympathetic or empathetic word to say about the Jewish state... But if anybody else is killed in the area it is the fault of the Israelis. Even the suicide bombers are the fault of the Israelis. And the arms smugglers. Plus the rocket wielders... It shows just how silly he is ... and malicious. And ignorant, since it also proves that he knows next to nothing about what apartheid was like in South Africa."

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