Talk:Common blackbird/Archive 1

Page name
moved this page back because it's crazy that this very ommon bird didn'thave its own article, and none of the reidrects had been fixed. jimfbleak 20:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Pest?
Unlike many other introduced species, the Blackbird has invaded natural bushland habitats in addition to alienated lands and the surrounds of of towns, and it competes with native birds. Morecombe, Field guide to Australian birds, 2000. The index to Tim Low's landmark book on environmental destruction in Australia Feral future (Penguin, 2001 revised edn.) lists the Blackbird 8 times. It's not the most serious pest bird in Oz, but it's certainly in the top ten, probably in the top five. It occupies a similar position in New Zealand (if my memory is to be trusted) and (I think) in quite a few other places too. Tannin 18:42 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure, Jim. I'm afraid I only know about Oz. It's certainly accurate for those parts of the world. I was originally unsure: was it better to say "pest in Oz & NZ" and risk incorrectly implying not a pest in (e.g.) Africa, S. America, or say "pest in lots of places" and risk getting that wrong. Either way is a mistake. I think your present formulation is good, at least until someone with more knowledge comes along to flesh it out. (They are, by the way, a serious PITA in SE Oz. Single most common bird in my garden. I go to bed at nights sometimes dreaming about designing a computer artificial intelligence application sufficiently powerful to selectively trap and kill Blackbirds and yet leave native species untouched.) Tannin


 * Seems fair. I've been to USA and Canada, and not even seen a European blackbird (the native Red-winged Blackbird is the pest there). Most of sub-Saharan Africa has an unsuitable climate, and I didn't see any on my only trip to India, which has its own Turdus thrushes, but I've no knowledge at all of S America ( or Oz as you probably realise!).jimfbleak


 * Really? I see more Common Grackles than any other kind of icterid. I rarely see Red-winged Blackbirds, even when I'm farther out in the country. --Evice 14:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Volume
Shuld the article make mention of the volume of the birdsong? From personal experience I know you can hear a blackbird from a fairly good distance, and the songs can be loud, from proximity, but of course it would have to be sourced. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 02:24, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

National bird of Sweeden
Might be interesting to say more about this than one line. Snowman (talk) 10:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Photo of juvenile blackbird
The bird looks a bit cornered in the photo and perhaps a better image will become available in the spring; however, the photo shows its whitish pointed tongue, which might be a feature of interest in the description/anatomy of the bird, if a satisfactory reference can be found. Snowman (talk) 18:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Sing a Song....
The text and the caption to the image use "...sing a song of sixpence..." but the text in the image is "...sing a song for sixpence...". "for" seems to make more sense to me - when did the phrase get changed to "to"? &mdash; G716  &lt;T·C&gt; 07:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well spotted, I hadn't noticed that. I've never heard it with "for", but nursery rhymes aren't cast in stone. I've changed the caption so that at least it agrees with the cover. Jimfbleak (talk) 07:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Toward FAC
I think this will be a good FA one day. I thought about it and figured GA status didn't really require egg dimensions.

For FA - much more exhaustive - I think it should probably be a bit beefier overall, maybe 50kb in total or more at a guess.


 * egg dimensions
 * listing of brood parasites, if any d'oh. I missed it!
 * more detail of infestation in Australia (being an Aussie)
 * clarify how distantly related icterids are
 * synthesize a more coherent cultural section

More will come to mind. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, they're $%*%% everywhere when you visit Melbourne...cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Check needed
T. m. kinsii, resembles the Sri Lanka Whistling-thrush (Myophonus blighi), and the out-of-range Tickell's Thrush (Turdus unicolor)
 * will need to check this statement. Tickell's Thrush is actually easily possible as a vagrant in Sri Lanka and not out-of-range. Shyamal (talk) 07:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm re-adding "out-of-range", as it fits with the ref. given. Checking the various other sources I have available for this species and region (HBW vol. 10, Thrushes by Clements et al, The Ripley Guide: Birds of South Asia by Rasmussen & Anderton, and Birds of the Indian Subcontinent by Grimmett, Inskipp & Tim Inskipp), none indicate that there are any records from Sri Lanka, with the nearest record being ~1000 km to the north in NE Andhra Pradesh, and approx. the same distance to an out of normal range record in NW Karnataka. Considering how far out of range some birds manage to get themself, that of course doesn't mean that Tickell's Thrush is entirely impossible for Sri Lanka, but at present there's no evidence in the form of a record to suppport that. Rabo3 (talk) 01:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Ticks
Perhaps a little more about the life cycle of ticks could be included to clarify why they are commoner in rural Blackbirds, rather then the urban blackbirds. I might be wrong, but I think that ticks that affect birds are specialised for feathered creatures. I am not entirely sure that bird ticks can cause Lyme disease in humans, but I have heard of deer and animal ticks causing Lyme disease in humans. As well as a skin rash Lyme disease also causes a flu-like illness. Snowman (talk) 23:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I have used the existing references to expand the Natural threats section. Snowman (talk) 17:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Are blackbirds sexually monogamous?
They appear to be socially monogamous, but are they sexually as well? Mathmo Talk 06:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Most unlikely. This reference suggests that they have evolved behaviours to reduce extra pair paternity which suggests that they are unlikely to be sexually monogamous. The frequency and timing of courtship and copulation in blackbirds, turdus merula, reflect spermcompetition and sexual conflict Dariusz Wysocki, Konrad Halupka (1999) Behaviour 141(4):501-512 http://www.springerlink.com/content/jhh3hnp0u0mwgf5b Shyamal (talk) 11:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Confirmed by this study. This provides a figure of 17% extra pair paternity. http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/15/3/508/TA01 Shyamal (talk) 11:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Good article notes
OK, looking good so far - notes to come:


 * The stubby Other blackbirds looks lost at the end. Why not rename Etymology, to the more inclusive Taxonomy which can then include this information as an addendum (also streamlines it with other bird FAs like Common Raven. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Any reason why Habitat and range rather than Distribution and habitat? (actually maybe we should get a consensus for all birds)....cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Populations are resident in the south and west of the range, but northern birds... - style issue, I'd use 'sedentary' and wikilink it (wiktionary?) as resident maybe confsing to non-birders. Also, but to 'although' which is softer.


 * May as well condense lead into 3 paras. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * ..are normally considered to involve escapes, - escapees?


 * ..was accepted as a genuine wild bird - 'has been accepted as a genuine wild bird' - perfect tense better here


 * It has a repertoire of other calls.. - a number of other calls. Repertoire should be used for all of them I guess.


 * I'd rename Taxonomy and subspecies and make it a subsection of taxonomy - actually, organizing the headings as per Barn Swallow as you've got description above taxonomy there if you're concerned aobut having description way down the page.


 * Have status as subheading under distribution and habitat and others as subheadings under behaviour.


 * Combine stubby paras in status

In summary, a couple of minor tweaks and it is successful. Prose is good for GA, may need a little more massaging for FAC. For FAC, I think we can bolster it and I have some symbolism stuff (referenced) which can hold that section together. Good work cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ I think I've fixed all the above, I really wasn't sure whether "natural threats" was better as a separate heading or a subheading of "behaviour". Please change or leave as you think best. Jimfbleak (talk) 08:04, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Great. Actually, if you can, can you get the dimensions of the eggs in the article? cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:54, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Egg dimensions: best place I know is BTO website: http://www.bto.org/birdfacts/indexa_all.htm Then click on 'Blackbird'. Can't be bothered to edit this now, but may do later. 88.96.65.6 (talk) 16:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Requested move
Move Parsecboy (talk) 17:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposing a move to Common Blackbird as it is the official name in IOC and HBW. There are many species termed blackbirds which can be discussed at a disambiguation page Blackbird. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:32, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Support

 * 1) . Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:34, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) This is what I think of when I hear blackbird..... ;-)-- Kim van der Linde at venus 04:41, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 3) Much as I'd like it to stay here, for sentimental reasons and the fact that I like simple article titles, the fact is that too many other birds are called blackbirds. Sabine's Sunbird   talk  04:46, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) per Cas, and in reaction against those who confuse regional bias with patriotism. Hesperian 11:21, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 5) In California, most people take Blackbird to mean Brewer's Blackbird, or occasionally Red-winged Blackbird, or even starling or crow.--Curtis Clark (talk) 16:41, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 6) Let's eliminate any hint of regional bias here; even if this was the first blackbird, the fact is, thanks to those clueless colonials, now there are lots of other species which also share that name. MeegsC | Talk 14:55, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) I'm a Brit - I know what a Blackbird is (-; jimfbleak (talk) 06:51, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) *A nice example of how systemic bias enters the pages of Wikipedia. I think if we would do a vote on Robin, with the more heavy weight of the US, it won't be the European Robin that gets the honours (it hasn't now). -- Kim van der Linde at venus 07:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Discussion
The following species all are named XXXXX Blackbird: White-collared Blackbird, Grey-winged Blackbird, Tibetan Blackbird, Indian Blackbird, Yellow-winged Blackbird, Yellow-shouldered Blackbird , Yellow-hooded Blackbird , Yellow-headed Blackbird, White-browed Blackbird , Unicolored Blackbird , Tricolored Blackbird , Tawny-shouldered Blackbird , Scrub Blackbird , Scarlet-headed Blackbird , Saffron-cowled Blackbird , Rusty Blackbird, Red-winged Blackbird , Red-shouldered Blackbird , Red-breasted Blackbird , Pale-eyed Blackbird , Oriole Blackbird , Melodious Blackbird , Jamaican Blackbird , Forbes's Blackbird , Cuban Blackbird, Chopi Blackbird , Chestnut-capped Blackbird , Brewer's Blackbird , Bolivian Blackbird , Austral Blackbird -- Kim van der Linde at venus 04:43, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid both these arguments are poor... As another Brit I too "know" that this species is called just "Blackbird", but that doesn't necessarily make it the right name for the article.  Similarly, it doesn't matter how many "Something Blackbirds" there are – this could still be "the" Blackbird.  The question really is, what does WP convention suggest?  So:
 * Does WP convention say we should follow IOC and HBW? The answer seems to be yes: this guideline says that HBW should be used for "taxonomy".  Taxonomy really means the organisation of taxa –  in fact how to divide them, but not actually what to call them.  However, discussion in the same section suggests the guideline intends to include "nomenclature", the naming of the taxa – and in that case HBW should indeed be our guidance here for both English and scientific names.
 * Can anyone confirm what the English name used by HBW actually is? Is there an online checklist?
 * Richard New Forest (talk) 21:44, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Richard, the HBW online video repository uses Common Blackbird . The WP convension is shifting and there is a discussion ongoing about what to adopt here. WikiProject Birds is confusing for me, as it is under the header taxonomy, but then they continue with:
 * This should be used for all articles except for those dealing with a country or region, where the appropriate local official list should be used, as in List of North American birds and British Birds. Thus the article on Buteogallus anthracinus is called Common Black Hawk, following HBW, but in List of birds in Canada and the United States this species is called Common Black-Hawk, following the American Ornithologists' Union.
 * For me, the main question is, what name would be best for the international public that comes to wikipedia, often not having English as their first language, from pretty much everywhere around the globe? Should we use the more or less accepted international names, or make to a degree random choices on this such as go with the Brits on Black bird and with the AOU with Common Raven and with the international name on Common Shelduck, Eurasian Wigeon and Common Buzzard?? -- Kim van der Linde at venus 04:48, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The international public that comes to our WP is coming to the English WP and expects it to be written in English.  Names of things in English are not systematic, but depend on tradition and usage. Where there is a single name most used in several of the major language areas, it should be used. Blackbird is the usual English word. That there are other birds with Blackbird as part of the name is irrelevant., any more than for Hippopotamus and Pygmy Hippopotamus or, for that matter the Malagasy hippopotamus (which I admit I just found out about right now). Is there any evidence that the single word causes confusion? DGG (talk) 15:23, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, I see that discussion about whether to use HBW or IOC – but that's not relevant here, as both appear to use "Common Blackbird". Therefore either way the WP convention seems to point clearly to that.  Is there really a good reason for this species to be an exception to the WP convention?  None has been given so far.  (Though personally I think the scientific names would be very much better for all taxa – but I've a fair way to go on that one...)  Richard New Forest (talk) 18:03, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Scientific names are possibly more accurate, but, and it is a big but, what they gain in accuracy they lose in approachability by the layman. Turdus may be better than thrush, but most people don't know what a Turdus (fnar fnar) is. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  19:31, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, but redirects would deal with that... Richard New Forest (talk) 20:53, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * @DGG, for the most part, probably not (cause confusion), but maybe in areas like the USA where there are other species. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. What does WP:BIRDS imply for this case?  I thought applying that guideline was a pretty mechanical process but I don't know enough about formal common names for birds to be sure. Kingdon (talk) 18:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Still clearly indicates Common Blackbird as far as I can see, and I think we really have to go with that unless someone can come up with good reasons why not. Richard New Forest (talk) 20:53, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Image
Image:Sg fexx 19.JPG does not show a Turdus Merula but a Turdus Philomenus. Turdus Merula youths are not blue. Turdus Philomeus youths have blue wing parts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.146.202.107 (talk) 20:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Turdus merula in Kosovo
Hello,

I would like to ask if there is any info on the Turdus merula in kosovo. Supposedly kosovo is called Kos-ovo because of the "Crni kos, Црни кос".

But, I have spent there months in kosovo and have taken many pictures of these birds. they are no Turdus merula, but Jackdaws (Corvus monedula).

So I would like to know if there is any population info on this Turdus merula in serbia, and if it has changed over the years.

thanks, mike Mdupont (talk) 19:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Given they occur throughout Europe they doubtless occur in Kosovo and Serbia. They certainly occur In Serbia per this list. I have no idea if anyone has looked at the species in these countries but if they have they have more likely used a local language to do so. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  20:45, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Photos
There are some good pictures of blackbirds nest on the German language wiki version. Would someone, who knows how to, link the english version to the best of these pictures?Snowman 10:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * This image? --Evice 00:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I just came across a good photo of a white blackbird. It's on this page: Life in Brookdale: White Blackbird. Evidently blackbirds are common in that particular area of Santa Cruz, Calif., and the photographer came across a rare white one in a parking lot. Here's the photo: http://lifeinbrookdale.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/whiteblackbird3.jpg. Perhaps the occasional white blackbird is worth mentioning in this article. 38.115.185.13 (talk) 15:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC) LNelsonChicago


 * I have 190 own photos of blackbirds here. A few (43)of them i uploaded here. If you wish more, i can upload from my gallery (thats my own pictures)what you need. I can't edit the article. I'am from germany and my english is not good enough.--Romate (talk) 07:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Cited article doesn't support text
The wiki article contains:

"This species is occasionally a host of parasitic cuckoos, such as the Common Cuckoo (Cuculus canorus), but this is minimal because the Common Blackbird recognizes the adult of the parasitic species and its non-mimetic eggs.[42]"

where reference 42 is a 2002 article by N.B. Davies in British Birds available here. The sentence may well be correct but it is not supported by the cited source where the only mention of a Blackbird is when their chicks are put into Reed Warblers nests.

A possible replacement of reference 42 above is: This article shows experimentally that in the UK Blackbirds reject cuckoo eggs that are placed in their nests. The authors classify Blackbirds as a "Suitable but rare host".

Davies and Brooke don't mention just how rare but David Glue & Robert Morgan (1972): Cuckoo Hosts in British Habitats, Bird Study, 19:4, 187-192 gives the figure of 3 nests in 59,770 examined - or 0.005% of nests (compared with 3.0% of Reed Warbler nests). Thus, within the UK it is extremely rare to find a Cuckoo's egg in a Blackbird's nest. Aa77zz (talk) 22:26, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'll amend and quote the figure shortly.  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:23, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Your changes look good to me. Thanks for responding so quickly and so efficiently. Aa77zz (talk) 08:05, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

File:Common Blackbird.jpg to appear as POTD
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