Talk:Comparison of wiki hosting services/Archive 7

Adding dates to Alexa traffic rankings
I started adding the update date to Alexa traffic rankings for some of the wiki farms. This was Ronz's idea. I suggest that others add the date whenever they update Alexa numbers.

Also, please note in the introduction this longstanding statement: "This article is not all-inclusive or necessarily up to date." This type of note is common in computer-related charts and lists. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:20, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest that someone make a dynamic chart, that updates upon viewing, somewhere else besides Wikipedia, then maybe we can link to it. Comparing unverifiable information from different dates is absurd. --Ronz (talk) 16:49, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It is common in computer-related charts and lists for features and info to be updated at different times for different entries. Please note in the introduction this longstanding statement: "This article is not all-inclusive or necessarily up to date." This type of note is common in computer-related charts and lists. The info is easily verifiable, as each Alexa entry has a reference. Please stop removing the longstanding Alexa traffic rankings column. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "It is common in computer-related charts and lists for features and info to be updated at different times for different entries." Simple assertions of something being "common" have absolutely no weight here.  Neither does something being "longstanding".  See WP:CON and WP:TALK.  --Ronz (talk) 17:54, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There are no policies or guidelines against including Alexa traffic rankings in an article, list, or chart. There are many Wikipedia pages with Alexa traffic rankings. See the results of this search of Wikipedia articles.


 * There is an infobox with Alexa rank as one of the parameters: Template:Infobox Website. That infobox is on many pages. It is also common to include the date the Alexa traffic ranking was retrieved. See, for example; Cramster.com where the reference for the Alexa rank in the infobox says "Retrieved on 2009-20-01." --Timeshifter (talk) 18:30, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Please help update and date the Alexa traffic ranks
I updated 18 more Alexa traffic rank entries yesterday and today, and added the date to the entries.

Rather than delete the Alexa traffic rank column please update Alexa ranks, and add dates. Here is the latest version of the article that includes the dated Alexa entries: --Timeshifter (talk) 14:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comparison_of_wiki_farms&oldid=295788703

Advice sought concerning Alexa traffic rankings
Besides the previously mentioned Village Pump discussion I left a request for advice at
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Computing

I would like to see advice here from people who edit computer-related articles in an additive way, and not just advice from people with a removalist/deletionist focus, though they can comment here also, of course.

In case someone deletes the Alexa traffic ranking column again here is the latest version of the article that contains the Alexa column: --Timeshifter (talk) 19:47, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comparison_of_wiki_farms&oldid=295788703


 * Disclaimer: I haven't read even half of the preceding discussion - it's simply too much, a synopsis would be helpful. I followed the link from the Village Pump to find this content dispute.
 * Re: the Alexa column ... if there's a good argument that shows why a casual reader would find value in having the Alexa rankings available as a point of comparison; then in concept, I have no objection to the Alexa rankings column. It's not an ideal source, but if rankings serve a purpose, then it can be a good starting point for comparison.  I also don't have a problem with out-of-date rankings (within reason - although how old is "too old" to be meaningful should be discussed).  But, as my mindset frequently reverts to my original background in audit - I do have a concern with the comparability of the figures.  Unless all of the ranks on the list are updated at close to the same time, the comparisons lose value.  If some rows show the site ranks as of January and others are as of June - any comparison begins to fall into realm of "apples vs. oranges".
 * If all of the values are updated at roughly the same time, and dated to show the date of that capture - then I have no major objection with including the Alexa column. If the column gets out of date by more than whatever age is deemed "too old" to be meaningful, then I could see hiding (but not deleting) the column until such time as they are all again updated as a group.  For arguments sake here, until a discussion takes place, lets call it a year or more out of date. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Alexa traffic ratings are completely meaningless in the real world. They are easily manipulated, only poll an extremely small and unrepresentative sample of the web-surfing public, and serve no purpose whatsoever other than to give WP:UNDUE weight. They should be removed here and everywhere on Wikipedia. DreamGuy (talk) 15:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Please see: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Computing. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, DreamGuy, you have given an opinion without sources. For what is actually reported from reliable sources please see: Alexa Internet. I disagree with your points about "completely meaningless" and "serve no purpose whatsoever". Here is my opinion: Any manipulation over the longterm to jack up the rank of a particular site would be difficult to maintain since it would require many multiple installs of the Alexa toolbar on many computers in a coordinated effort that would have to be changing over time to avoid scrutiny by Alexa. Very few websites would have the resources, network of people, and time, to do this successfully longterm, and get away with it unobserved by Alexa. As with all info reported in Wikipedia articles people have to decide for themselves as to the relative merits of Alexa traffic rankings. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Summarizing my previous comments, I share the same concerns as Barek though, like Dreamguy, I think that ultimately we just have to do without the Alexa information. Even if someone went ahead and updated each and every Alexa ranking, providing accessed-date information as well, the information would need to be updated on a regular basis.  I don't think this is enough to meet WP:V. Given that no one wants to even update the information properly even once, any further solution along this line is moot.  Further, like others, I have to question the Alexa information as being reliable. --Ronz (talk) 16:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

(Unindent). You did not have consensus to "to do without the Alexa information." People can judge for themselves as to the value of Alexa traffic rankings. Many people find them useful. It is no secret though, that you (Ronz) and DreamGuy want all or most of this article deleted. DreamGuy from a talk section higher up: "I have a problem with the existence of the article in general." If I am remembering correctly you (Ronz) want to delete most of the article down to around 10 notable wiki farms. I may be wrong. For more info see: Village pump (policy)/Archive 64.

WP:V and WP:PRIMARY are discussed higher up at. Alexa traffic rankings are used on many Wikipedia pages. That usage is discussed higher up at. Your idea of adding the date to the Alexa rank entries is discussed there also. I agree with that idea, and started added the date of access to some Alexa traffic rankings.

As for how often Alexa traffic rankings are being updated here are the diffs of the last few months of updates of Alexa traffic rankings by various editors:


 * 08:13, 6 June 2009 - Timeshifter.
 * 21:07, 4 June 2009 - Timeshifter.
 * 18:17, 1 June 2009 - 72.174.28.79.
 * 03:16, 5 May 2009 - Promethean.
 * 05:38, 20 April 2009 - Promethean.
 * 11:14, 29 March 2009 - Timeshifter.
 * 01:49, 3 March 2009 - 173.17.187.196.
 * 00:00, 2 March 2009 - 88.233.8.132.

Once editors see that the date of entry is now being used for Alexa traffic rankings, then most editors who update Alexa traffic rankings will probably enter the date. It will happen over time as editors are encouraged to do so, and it becomes habitual. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep the Alexa column. I found it very useful when I read this article a while ago. --Apoc2400 (talk) 14:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion
I could write a bot to keep the Alexa numbers up to date at some regular interval. This would require a bit of work and either Alexa's approval (I have no idea how likely they are to give that) or the paying a tiny fee. Thus, I would near clear consensus that the column is desirable (if properly maintained) before attempting this. Thoughts? --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:55, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I think the bot would be useful for other computer-related chart pages too. I am curious at times to try out various programs or services. Knowing which ones are the most popular would help me greatly in deciding which ones to try out first. At least then I could compare the other programs and service providers to the more well-known or popular ones.


 * I don't think it would work though if a fee was required. Who would pay it? --Timeshifter (talk) 20:20, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The first option is to get Alexa's permission to free access their data via automated crawling. Their site says this access is granted/denied on a case-by-case basis, so I have no idea if it would be allowed or not.  The other option is to download their data at the cost of 15¢/1000 requests.  The fee is so nominal that I would just pay it - I can't imagine it adding up to more than a few dollars a year. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:37, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, I'm not entirely convinced that this is needed just yet. I'm fairly sure the conversation above has shown that there isn't a consensus yet. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 20:42, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There clearly is no consensus for manually, haphazardly, updated ranks, which is precisely the reason that I was offering an alternative idea that would potentially address the concerns of the objectors. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:21, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Whatever happens here I believe WikiProject Computing would appreciate having this bot. So would the people maintaining the pages using Template:Infobox Website. That infobox has an optional parameter for the Alexa traffic rank of the website. For examples of it in use see Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Infobox_Website.


 * I would hope Alexa might let Wikipedia be one of the ones that get free access. I am broke, and so I can't help. If necessary, maybe a request for funds can be made at the wikiproject talk page or the template talk page. Or a Paypal tipbox link or something. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Mediation time
Seriously guys, this is well past time mediation were sought on this, at least as a first step. If an RFC/U is needed afterwards then so be it. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree. The talk section above this is part of this stage in WP:DR (WP:Dispute resolution):
 * Dispute resolution - "Ask at a subject-specific WikiProject talk page. Usually, such projects are listed on top of the article talk page."


 * I asked for advice from people here:
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Computing


 * We can also use some of the other options listed in WP:DR. I think another logical step is this:
 * Dispute resolution


 * The main reason given by Ronz for deleting the longstanding Alexa traffic ranking column is his interpretation of WP:V. See talk higher up at.


 * We have been using primary sourcing for the Alexa column.
 * WP:V refers to
 * Reliable sources - It further refers to the more detailed info at the WP:NOR policy page:
 * No original research (also known as WP:PRIMARY).


 * WP:NOR is a core policy page, and not just a guideline. See the policylist infobox to the right under "content standards."


 * WP:NOR states:


 * "No original research" is one of three core content policies. The others are neutral point of view and verifiability. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in articles. Because they complement each other, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should familiarize themselves with all three.


 * The top of WP:NOR refers people to No original research/Noticeboard. I asked their opinion at
 * No original research/Noticeboard --Timeshifter (talk) 13:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, the main reason for wishing to remove the Alexa information is because you are the only person in favour of it. Consensus is against you, as it has been for months. The only reason the material remains is because you have continually restored it. This thread is a perfect example of the problem - it is impossible to discuss the issue when you continually obfuscate the discussion by repeatedly posting mounds of material. The next step will be an RFC/U regarding your general conduct here, which will hopefully result in a rebuke and a warning that continuing to edit war will see you blocked. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * You are incorrect. See the previous talk sections, and the talk archives. Many people have supported the Alexa traffic rankings. And it is against WP:TALK to change my comments.


 * And the months of discussion you refer to concerned the links to the wiki farms. Those links are gone. They were removed without consensus. Many people opposed their removal, but Ronz removed them anyway. They have not been returned. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:01, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The Alexa links have been discussed since at least January. The real issue here is not the specific points of article content (which is why I've reconsidered taking this to mediation) but your conduct, which has been unconductive to amicable discussion of the various content issues since that time. It is certainly true that Ronz should not have been edit warring with you, but to my knowledge Ronz has not been describing editors in good standing as "single purpose accounts" for disagreeing with him, nor repeatedly giving the impression of asking the other parent by dragging the discussion out onto other talk pages. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Other than a short non-controversial maintenance question (see higher up ) things were quiet for around 2 months on this talk page until Ronz deleted the Alexa traffic rankings column without immediate prior discussion or consensus.


 * Seeking mediation was what you suggested at the beginning of this talk section. It was also suggested by a couple other editors at Village pump (policy)/Archive 64.


 * Maybe you should look in the mirror concerning user conduct. For example; this misrepresentation of yours:


 * "giving the impression of asking the other parent by dragging the discussion out onto other talk pages."


 * Interesting that you call for mediation, and then attack me for following the mediation process via WP:DR. As I previously explained those 2 discussions are exactly what mediation via WP:Dispute resolution (WP:DR) calls for.


 * As for the use of the term "SPA"; that is a term commonly used by many people, especially by spamfighters. I explained my use of it at Village pump (policy)/Archive 64. It may not be the best term to use to classify editors who focus almost exclusively on removing stuff from articles, and who rarely add info to articles.


 * Back to the issues and not the personalities. Concerning recent support; Barek, Apoc2400, and I support keeping the Alexa traffic rankings. Also, several other editors have updated Alexa traffic rankings in the last few months. See the previous talk section.


 * Ronz just removed the Alexa traffic rankings column again even though discussion is ongoing. See diff. How is this helpful? --Timeshifter (talk) 16:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "SPA", just like "spamfighter" when used in the sense of "not a content creator like me", is still a pejorative and you meant it as such. Editors who "focus almost exclusively on removing stuff from articles, and who rarely add info to articles" are no less valuable to the project than any other kind of editor; we do not judge an editor's opinion on the number of bytes he adds to or subtracts from articles but rather on the strength of his argument. I see you've now re-added the section again, which indicates that you'd far rather edit-war over this than take the upper ground and argue it out. If there were consensus for the section then you wouldn't have to continually battle other editors to put it back in. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 07:44, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, you read minds now? Your continual spinning of the issues is not appreciated. SPA and spamfighter are descriptions. I am a spamfighter at times. So that is not a pejorative term. SPA is a term used by some spamfighters to describe single-purpose accounts who only spam (usually spam for one website). SPA is also used by other editors too. Such as when describing editors who focus on one topic, or one article. Some of those editors are appreciated and some are not. The term SPA itself is not pejorative. For certain periods of time I am an SPA. I focus on one topic. Claiming that I am edit-warring is another attack on your part, more of your continual spinning of the issues which is not appreciated. Look in the mirror when you talk about "take the upper ground and argue it out." And "continually battle other editors" is more spin. Ronz removed the Alexa column with no warning after the talk page had been quiet for around 2 months. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:51, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Clarification: As I was listed under support (above post), I wanted to ensure that all parties here understand that my position was for conditional supporting of keeping the data - if all rank values are updated at close to the same time. Alexa data can have flaws ... but in the absense of an alternate tool, it can be a useful starting point for comparisons. However, once rank values become a month or more out of sync with each other, the data becomes meaningless for comparison purposes. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I would suggest 4 to 6 months out of date. I have watched Alexa ranks over time, and they don't change dramatically for the most part. At least not in rank order, and that is what many people look for. When I was looking for a wiki farm to use for a wiki I wanted to find a more popular wiki farm as determined by rank order. I did that because I felt that it could be an indication of longevity. I have several websites and blogs, and I have seen many web hosts disappear. I don't want to lose a website due to a web host disappearing. I could also lose all my work, and the accumulated links back to my sites. I would have to upload the pages to a new website and I would lose Google popularity due to less links back to my site. That lowers placement on Google search result pages. That can lower the number of hits on many sites dramatically. Most hits to my sites come from Google search result links. So longevity of wiki hosts matter to some people, and Alexa ranks can possibly help predict longevity. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:35, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If this is your reason for wanting to keep the Alexa ranks then you'd be far better finding a secondary source which describes the relative popularity of the different options rather than relying on Wikipedia maintaining a list of primary sources for your benefit. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 07:44, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The chart is not for "my" benefit, and your continual spin of the discussion is not appreciated. Just like your attacks of me higher up via misrepresentation:
 * "giving the impression of asking the other parent by dragging the discussion out onto other talk pages."
 * What secondary source describes the relative popularity of all these wiki farms? Answer: none. And if they did what source would they use? Answer: a service such as Alexa. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would suggest to mediate the issue of the rankings going out of date, that we put the date before the rank so they will sort by date first. For example, it would look like this, "'09 June - 630,000 [4] June 12". (A bit redundant, but it would work.) I tested it and they sort nicely this way: In descending order, the ones with no months end up at the bottom and they continue to sort by rank otherwise. Maybe there is some invisible text that would make the most recent months go to the top, when in descending order. May confuse other editors though, but if we have a very dedicated editor (like Timeshift), who wants to keep it all up to date, and make the whole column consistent (note Barek's support is conditional on them ALL being up to date)... but we can't expect TS to do all this work if some admin is likely to delete it anyway... unless TS doesn't care about that risk. Lumenos (talk) 10:55, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Reply to Chris Cunningham (not at work) statement that, "Actually, the main reason for wishing to remove the Alexa information is because you are the only person in favour of it." I'm not sure there are many people who are aware that anyone would be interested in deleting this information. I support the Alexa ranking. It is not perfect but it is better than nothing. Wikipedia's inclusion policy is not that sources be perfect, but rather reliable. This would seem to be a gray area. Any source can have flaws, but Alexa mainly serves to clearly separate the tiny wikifarms from the massive ones, for sake of notablity. I don't think most people are going to judge purely by the Alexa rank anyway, so it doesn't have to be so precise. Lumenos (talk) 09:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply to Chris Cunningham (not at work) statement, "giving the impression of asking the other parent by dragging the discussion out onto other talk pages." The issue of Alexa rankings is of a more general interest than this specific article. Therefore it is appropriate to discuss it on at least one other talk page. But Timeshift went to TWO whole talk pages, didn't they? This section began with you initiating this be "dragged" into mediation, instead of seeking consensus here on this talk page. Most of this would be more appropriate under the Alexa rank section, or rather on a page that was for a more general discussion of whether Alexa rankings are useful. Lumenos (talk) 09:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Copied to Wikinfo
In case Deletionpedia doesn't catch it, I copied the article to Wikinfo, where we wouldn't have any of these problems, although the audience will be much smaller outside of Wikimonopolipedia. Or if deleted, then situations change, it could be reimported. Lumenos (talk) 07:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Embedded lists?
The Multiple Issues template at the top of this article includes "laundrylists". I would appreciate an explanation of what that refers to. That list of issues seems more like a laundry list than anything else on the page. :-) Jojalozzo (talk) 17:28, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikimatrix lists Wiki technologies not Wiki Farms
From what I can tell, Wikimatrix.org lists wiki technologies not the farms that may host them. The first sentence of the General section says "more than 100 wiki farms have been created" with Wikimatrix as the reference. Am I missing something? Jojalozzo (talk) 22:07, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It lists some wikifarms, such as Wikia. The Choice Wizard option of "hosted" I believe means "wikifarm", as in one where you don't need to install software. If you choose the other option "software" then it seems to show you software but not any web host. Lumenos (talk) 08:38, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know what their inclusion policy is but they don't have some other MediaWiki wikifarms like Referata, Wiki-Site, or Editthis.info. (These let you choose/write your own copyright license and are more likely to let you close/move the wiki.) WikiMatrix has been deleted as "spam" before. Lumenos (talk) 08:38, 26 August 2009 (UTC)