Talk:Compas

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Merge Mini-Jazz and Kompa
Mini-jazz and kompa are two different genres...the two sound totally different. Mini-jazz is just another meringue created bu sheu shleu....at list that's how it seems. If not it need to be merged with the kompa article because this is confusing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.192.218.161 (talk) 16:06, 12 December 2014 (UTC)


 * This comment is irrelevant because of its lack of music knowledge. The mini jazz as defined, is a reduced band as opposed to the heavy meringue or compas bands of the era. This is the same cadence, same tempo and bipartite and mostly the same dance. It is the same thing with jazz: cool jazz, big band, light, Latin, etc. Pintade (talk) 22:46, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Zouk called compas?
Why is zouk called compas????? explain???? Compas is a drum-cowbell-conga that old Antillean kadans band used in their music. most zouk don't feature a cowbell or congaline...is it the tambora drum (dominican drum)??????? Zouk use the tibwa and chacha from biguine, as well as a guitar scratch, synthesizers, soul-style vocals, funky basslines and horns from cadence-lypso. That is zouk music....that is why zouk is called a fusion. It is not all about compas. Exile one was not a Domininican, Antillean or Haitian band. though the members were mostly from Dominica, the band represented all the creole speaking caribbean. They were based in guadeloupe, lived in Martinique, toured in Haiti, France and everywhere. Cadence-lypso and exile one, as well as grammacks and Kassav have contributed significantly to compas music.....this gave rise to "new generation" compas with bands featuring full-horn sections, synthesisizers, soul-style vocals, funky basslines, and midi technology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.192.218.161 (talk) 03:12, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Zouk is the FRENCH ANTILLES COMPAS because: 1) Since the compas was introduced to the French Antilles of Martinique and Guadeloupe, these islands have become Compas lands. The dance and music have been adopted since. 2) For those who have some music notions, it is easy to compare the rhythmic, percussion, tempo and dance, which are no different. Scholars have proven it. 3) ZOUK BETON is a fast carnival beat mixed with gwo ka, ti bwa and other styles promoted only by the group cassav. It faded away in the same 80s and French Antilleans have continued to play their Compas music. Cassav, was the first Caribbean band to introduce the MIDI technology into its music. The sound was new and everybody followed. However, was it a new music? NO. a new dance? NO. The music repertoire of cassav is 90% Compas music. Erick Virgal, Jocelyn Beroard, Patrick St. Eloi, Tanya, Edith and so many others have a COMPAs music repertoire.
 * The question is how the French Antilles of Martinique and Guadeloupe have made the transition from the fast carnival beat zouk beton, faded away in the same 80s, to simply zouk, danced, played and sounded exactly like COMPAS?
 * Complication and confusion arise when neophytes make passionate assumptions Pintade (talk) 00:01, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I FEEL THIS IS UNFAIR TO HOW NEMOUR MERINGUE STYLE IS GETTING ALL THE CREDIT FOR WIBERT MERINGUE STYLE "CADENCE". IN REALITY, IT WAS THE CADENCE THAT GAINED MORE POPULARITY IN THE FRENCH ANTILLES WITH COMPAS BEING THE LESS INFLUENCIAL UNTIL THE 70'S WHEN COMPAS BANDS STARTED EMULATING CADENCE-LYPSO AND THE FRENCH ANILLES CADENCE STYLES. BANDS LIKE GRAMMACKS, LES AIGLONS, EXPERIENCE 7, EXILE ONE, AND EVENTUALLY KASSAV.

AM READING COMPAS HISTORY AND IT'S ALL CADENCE "OR COMPAS"....YET BOTH STYLES ARE MERINGUE. THIS STYLE IS NOT NEMOUR OR WIBERT CREATION. IT IS JUST A MERENGUE THAT BECAME POPULAR BY BANDS FROM HAITI AND THE FRENCH ANTILLES. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.192.218.161 (talk) 06:15, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

He brought the same genre to the French Antilles under a different name. The people in Haiti obviously stayed loyal to the Compas name. So you think just by changing a name you have different music? This has been the problem all along. Also, weren't you warned for SHOUTING? Savvyjack23 (talk) 01:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Why the title cadence-lypso is so important for Dominica and the French Antilles?
Cadence-lypso started as a mix of kadans and calypso, but the style developed more as kadans. as dominican bands started introducing the synthesizers, a full-horn section influenced by calypso/funk, rock guitars, soul-style vocals and funky basslines....this is when the compas started its modernization to zouk music. it's true that the music maitained the cadence or compas beat(ex. the cowbell and tambora drum, not so much the conga. the use of the cymbal, which also play the same rhythm of the jing ping gwaj. this rhythm is also found in the "tibwa" and maracas/rattle-scraper rhythms played on the bele, biguine and chouval bwa from the french antilles. all this became part of the style that later evolved into zouk, thought compas left the biggest influence.

It all started with compas, but dominica kadans or influence coming from dominica and the french antilles have changed compas from a more latin music into a more commercial genre of music. compas is being promoted or should i say have been promoted....zouk or zouk love always been a romantic genre speaking about love issues, while compas was more up tempo and aggressive. today, compas is following the same pattern as zouk love or compas love. that's where the confusion started.

Cadence-lypso and zouk have been there since the 70's and 80's, and after evolving over the years u now expect everyone to change the name to compas? talking about the genre that hepled put money on our pockets lol...wasn't that the sucess of bands like exile one and kassav who paved the way for modern creole music? who was the first to get sign to a major record label? or started the introduction of digital technology such as the synthesizers and midi...even when the haitain bands had to up grade their compas style to compete by adding synthesiers and more technology. didn't that promote creole music?

Look at the sucess of compas in haiti, as opposed to the french antilles, then tell me who making the most progrss. u gave a style that was accidentally improved as zouk...it became popular paving a way for all to benefit, right?.....like for ex. why is the name zouk is so more popular that compas.

All haitian did was introduce a beat (tambora drum. conga and cowbell). antilleans added the tibwa and chacha rhythmic pattern with rock guitars, soul-style vocals, and funk basslines and horns. in addition, the synthesizers and midi. this is the modernization of creole music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.192.218.161 (talk) 20:02, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Dominica holds the title "cadence-lypso" a golden era for modern creole music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.92.176.37 (talk) 21:38, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

COMPLICATIONS AND CONFUSION ARISE WHEN NEOPHYTES MAKE PASSIONATE ASSUMPTIONS THAT PROVE TO BE IRRELEVANT. IN THE SAME ORDER OF IDEAS, HOW WOULD YOU COMBINE TWO DISTINCT MUSIC STYLES WITH DIFFERENT RHYTHMIC, BASE LINE AND PERCUSSION? THE COMPAS IS CHARACTERIZED MOSTLY BY ITS TEAM UP "CONGA, COW BAIL AND RHYTHMIC STYLE. CAN YOU INTRODUCE OR EVEN MIX CALYPSO BASIC RHYTHMIC WITH COMPAS? IT IS ONE OR THE OTHER. IT IS EASY FOR IGNORANT TO ASSERT THINGS THAT THEY CANNOT DEMONSTRATE. THAT WOULD BE TOO EASY TO JUST ADD A FEW STUFFS IN A MUSIC TO CREATE A NEW STYLE. NOPE. YOU INHERITE FROM YOUR CULTURE OR WORK HARD WITH INTELLIGENCE TO GET IT. ALSO, PUERTO RICAN, CUBAN AND SO MANY SOUTH AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE NO PROBLEM SHARING SALSA. THE SAME FOR ROCK AND OTHERS. ONLY IN THE CARIBBEAN THIS PASSIONATE COMPLEX IS SEEN.

Not neutral
I´ll like to add the comment that Nemours and Sicot work together within the Orchestra Internacional in 1954. So, it´s difficult to say that there is only one founder of the konpa dirèk.--Juan Quisqueyano 20:58, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Nemours is the promoter of the konpa direk name. However, what he called konpa is the same meringue that Haitians have been dancing for years. He simply popularized this light and easy to dance meringue style. Webert Sicot did the same thing with his cadence.Pintade (talk) 13:21, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Maestro Nemours Jean-Baptiste promoted himself as the Creator of "Konpa" thru most of his songs when he was alive. If you, Wikipedia, have a chance, listen to some of Maestro Nemours Jean-Baptiste's songs with some translators and they will be able to tell you the truth. "When he was alive, no one could contradict his self-promotion because he was saying the truth. Now that he's dead, everyone is saying and writing anything they feel like." There a saying in Haitian that says "The dead people are wrong and the living people are right". If you want to use some references, check Mr. Eddy Garnier's page on Face Book and you can view an article that he wrote about Maestro Nemours Jean-Baptiste, and how he analyzed his songs one by one to prove his Creation.

P.S. Wikipedia, please do a lot research about the information people are posting because a lot people are saying that Wikepedia information is not credible. Vive Konpa or Live Konpa!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.168.221.62 (talk) 04:58, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Why the person who didn't have the gut to sign the comment tried to associate him/herself with konpa music? what is the connection here?Pintade (talk) 15:05, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Ophelia Marie is the first kadans female singer to achieve international popularity in the late 70's. Why isn't that mentioned here? Her style was imitated by many in the French Antilles eventually evolving into Zouk-love. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.205.126.84 (talk) 14:00, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

That's because this is compas music, not the compas (cadence) brought to the French Antilles by Sicot. However, being that cadence is compas if you feel it is necessary to include her here than feel free to do so; leave room for common human error. Savvyjack23 (talk) 16:46, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Accuracy disputed
Edit warring on this article has meant it reflects what the latest editor wants it to say, rather than what reliable sources (see WP:RS say about the subject. Dougweller (talk) 10:03, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

The Compas music article is reliable. Its in accordance with many writers such as Gage Averill, Peter Manuel, Carpentier, unwritten facts and testimonies from many compas artists, etc. this is why this inaccuracy notice is a surprise. This compas music article is made of facts not emotion or propaganda. Compas as a meringue modern is a real music genre. Wikipedia should be very careful with those trying to get undeserved credits. For example it is a known fact that zouk was a fast tempo carnival style created and popularized by French Antilles group kassav. The style was a mix of gwo ka, calypso, biguine, African and cadence or compas with the full use of the MIDI technology. This style faded away quickly after its creation in the 80s and as usual The French Antillean went back to their roots compas music. The problem now is French Antillean artists are playing compas everywhere promoting it as zouk. there is a mismatch between their definition of the zouk and the music they are playing. So we have started to correct this inacuracy by making sound corrections, providing accurate facts and references that unfortunately are deleted as often as possible. There should be a protocole for that. Their latest action has been to put their zouk text under protection and start messing with the compas article. We repeat: as a fast carnival beat mix of gwo ka, African, biguine, calypso, cadence or compas...zouk cannot influence kizomba, Cabo verde styles and any music genre as such. However, French Antillean artists can influence others with their compas music. In addition many artists such as Tito Paris from Cabo verde and others areas had already been influenced by meringue compas artists. It is a known fact...read Peter Manuel in his Musics of the Non-western World, University press 1988 page74. We provided proof of the source of the word zouk introduced in the 80s by Haitian artists who toured the French Island...but as usual they would delete it. Facts is not important for them but their agenda. So I hope I have enlighten readers some how so they could understand what is behind the Accuracy disputed.Pintade (talk) 14:09, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * 'We'? Dougweller (talk) 13:18, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia articles are not built around unwritten facts and personal testimonies. There has to be reliable sources. If there are in fact different definitions of a style, where different groups use different terminology, all definitions that are in actual use should be covered in the article, with sources. --bonadea contributions talk 12:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

What is written here about compas can be found in the work of many writers and publishers such as Gage Averill, Peter Manuel, All Music Guide, compas magazine, Gabriel Debien, Tambor battant, etc. They all talk about Nemours Jean-Baptiste populazition of the compas name; how this music was introduced to Dominica and mostly the French Caribbean Islands in the 50s to become their basic music; the influence of compas on Cape verdean artists like Tito Paris in the 70s, etc. Regarding kizomba make a review of many CDs and see for yourself. I am not inventing anything because I am committed to the same standard of objectivity without passion.

So your sudden focus on the compas article left me a little confused. I would also appreciate it if you could be more specific here: " If there are in fact different definitions of a style, where different groups use different terminology..." ThanksPintade (talk) 14:35, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I FIND IT UNFAIR TO HOW NEMOUR MERINGUE STYLE IS GETTING ALL THE CREDIT FOR WIBERT MERINGUE STYLE "CADENCE". IN REALITY, IT WAS THE CADENCE THAT GAINED MORE POPULARITY IN THE FRENCH ANTILLES WITH COMPAS BEING THE LESS INFLUENCIAL UNTIL THE 70'S WHEN COMPAS BANDS STARTED EMULATING CADENCE-LYPSO AND THE FRENCH ANILLES CADENCE STYLES. BANDS LIKE GRAMMACKS, LES AIGLONS, EXPERIENCE 7, ECILE ONE, AND EVENTUALLY KASSAV.

AM READING COMPAS HISTORY AND IT'S ALL CADENCE "OR COMPAS"....YET BOTH STYLES ARE MERINGUE. THIS STYLE IS NOT NEMOUR OR WIBERT CREATION. IT IS JUST THE MERINGUE, THE NATIONAL MUSIC OF HAITI THAT BECAME POPULAR BY BANDS FROM HAITI AND THE FRENCH ANTILLES. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.192.218.161 (talk) 06:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)


 * As I ask of all editors, provide reliable sources that support your viewpoint. In contrast to your personal opinion, Michael R. Hall says that Jean-Baptiste Nemours was the one who popularized compas direct in contrast with Silot's cadence rampa. On the other hand there is your opinion and the problem is "Because I say so" is never an acceptable justification for a claim in Wikipedia. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:33, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Compas Rhythm
Compas music (written as Compas Direct in French or konpa in Haitian creole) is a rhythm created by the late Maestro Nemours Jean-Baptiste. Before the creation of Compas Direct, there was the genre RASIN which still exists today. But the night club owners and the promoters used to contract the Cuban and Dominican Groups, especially during the Holiday Seasons to come to Haiti to entertain the people. Compas, Konpa, was created by Maestro Nemours Jean-Baptiste, not Popularized by him.

There is no doubt that Maestro Nemours Jean-Baptiste is a musician well qualified to be able to conceive and improve upon a new swing. His care in adapting his original ideas to the tastes of the public is acknowledged by their pleased attitude toward his inspiration. He gave impetus to Haitian Music by creating the rhythm known as "Compas Direct." This creation was enthusiastically welcomed and it brought immediate "fame" to Maestro Nemours Jean-Baptiste. ('Source IBO Album ILP 107 "THE SENSATION OF THE DAY".)'

From its inception, this new rhythm was approved of by everyone. Both young and old could dance to it with ease.

~finrFinrasipc (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:49, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Nemours popularized compas music instead of creating it. It's obvious he is the originator of the name "compas", however, as a meringue, compas is not his creation. This is the same meringue people have been dancing and singing for years in Haiti. Great popular heavy meringue bands such as "Super jazz des jeunes", "Orchestre Isa el Sahe" all the musical groups that existed before 1955 were all playing meringue. The meringue was in the brass bands of Occilius Jeanty, in the street, in Cuba "tabatiem tombe", America "yellow bird", south America, etc. Pintade (talk) 20:43, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Artists of kompa
Kassav which Jocelyne Beroard work with many artists. They worked, for example, with Wyclef Jean and Tabou Combo. So they sang some song konpa. But their songs are essentially zouk. They're not compas or méringue artists. --Idylh (talk) 12:47, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

What a passionate comment? it's funny... All the kassav were evolving in their compas or cadence bands before narcissism turned their heads. Oh I get it: zouk is style that plays and dances exactly as compas. What an audacity? You forgot about the 50s when you were playing marzouka and beguine...when Haitian musicians introduced you to the meringue compas? taught you how to play and dance it? the first bands at the bananerais, Tropicana, l'auberge, etc. Louis Lahens? the Sicot brothers? let me laugh because you're so strange and patheticPintade (talk) 03:32, 26 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Do either of you have a reliable source for any of this? That makes it easier to settle the issue rather than just who wins the edit war. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:23, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Ricky81682 It is obvious there cannot be any comparison between compas and zouk for the simple raison that prior to 1955 French Antilleans were dancing marzouka, beguine and Latin. In 1955 Nemours and Sicot toured the Caribbean, specifically Guadeloupe and Martinique to school them (compas/cadence) since then these Islands are replete with cadence or compas bands. check YouTube. kassav was initially "Les vickings de la Guadeloupe as opposed to "Les vickings d'Haiti". kassav music repertoire is 90% compas and still it's a zouk band. Have you reviewed the discography? After more than 50 years playing and dancing a music you still cannot acknowledge it? the zouk was a fast carnival jump up beat that faded away in the same 80s. again if I can call it zouk; it was an experiment. compas (dance and music) has always been the main music there. zouk only exists by name; where ever cassav and other bands tour compas is promoted as zouk. listen to this so-called cassav zouk and listen to Tabou combo or any Haitian compas band...skah shah, zin, etc. Scholars have written about it but no...they prefer the propaganda...a world without laws or clear criteria...they will tell you yeah we added tibwa and we got another style. Check these sources about compas and zouk:

All Music Guide, Peter Manuel, Gage Averill, Even the sometimes not too accurate Jocelyne Guilbault said that the cadence played by French Antilleans was not different from the so-called Antillean kadans. (These are not simple internet links that anyone can generate)Pintade (talk) 15:49, 4 December 2014 (UTC)


 * kassav was formed in 1979 and not in the 50s. Zouk and Kompa are different but still share a lot of similarities and resemblance, like a lot of musics Caribbean. In Un opéra en Haïti (Lucie Hubert), there's a definition that says kompa is a genre of Haiti near the Puerto Rican merengue; a barn dance with orchestra of drums, percussion, brass and piano. In the blog Le Monde, there is an interview with Jocelyne Beroard (Kassav member)that says gwoka is the base of zouk, but this music is enriched with all the music listened younger (interview "Jocelyne, Kassav 'and the invention of zouk" (in French).) --Idylh (talk) 14:11, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Derivatives
there is no reason to have two sections talking about cadencelypso so I merged it below with the derivatives. also, i added cadence in the Caribbean with compas history. why don't mini jazz get merged with compas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.101.45.22 (talk) 07:11, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Differences between "derivative genres", "subgenres" and "fusion genres"?
See these good points as a benchmark at: Talk: Infobox music genre Savvyjack23 (talk) 05:06, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Removal of Funkyorgan.com
I removed the references to Funkyorgan.com because it does not qualify under WP:RS. It as described a blog about organ based soul, jazz, funk, blues, gospel and pop music which is entirely anonymous and self-published and for that reason, per Verifiability, it is "largely not acceptable as sources". -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected per complaints at WP:ANI and WP:AN3
The article is full protected for two weeks to stop an edit war. See a complaint at WP:ANI as well as a report at WP:ANEW (permalink). If you want to make a change in the article during the two weeks of protection, open an edit request and an admin will review it. Any proposed changes that lack reliable sources or don't have consensus may not be done. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 17:33, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 December 2014
I'm an involved admin so it's better if I make a request. I'd like to request the following changes be made -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I formatted the section so we can get hte sections we agree upon. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:14, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm going to get rid of the subheadings and ask for the ones which seem agreed upon. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:55, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

No offense, but to a beginner to these subjects, it will be very very difficult to understand all of this. It took me a few months. There's no easy fix. Like I said, I have many sources of my own but like User:Pintade and myself, we are alone on this. I had confirmed his edits with my sources which is why I never challenged. (I actually did a few times and found out that he was right on all accounts! Check his talk page.) I was confused at first just as you are. So, I won't allow these articles to be butchered. Insert the tags and we will source them. Thank you. Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok, let's discuss each one and see what we can agree upon. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:14, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. Savvyjack23 (talk) 21:23, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Kompa direct in lede

 * Change "kompa" to "kompa dirèk" in the bolded lede. I have no idea which is correct but the etymology section uses kompa direk. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * (1) It is no longer often called kompa direk, besides this spelling of kompa became popular before Haitian Creole had a standardized writing language of omitting the m for the n etc. Konpa direk is the Creole spelling only of compas direct, the way it was originally spelled by its founder. This source refers to all spellings pg. 6.119 Also, see pg. 161 and glossary at pg 304  which writes about konpa and ''konpa direk, using the correct spelling. Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * But is it also know as "kompa direk"? I've seen it as compas direct but I haven't pieced together all the variations. What are all the variations that are worth including? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:39, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Originally, Nemours called it compas direct and for short it was called compas. You see, in the administrative setting, the French language is the de facto of the country. However, it has been written in Creole form which is why we have konpa direk and konpa. Before, the language was standardized omitting the m in favor of the n, Haitian artists would even spell it kompa and the spelling is indeed in circulation regardless as well as the correct spelling in Creole. So to answer your question on which variation is worth using, the only answer I can honestly give you is ALL of them. How can you omit any of them? Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:09, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok, what's all of them? Perhaps "Compas or compas direct (Creole: konpa direk or 'kompa) ...." ? Separate the language translation errors. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:41, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I think the Etymology should cover the whole name for compas as it is hardly referred to as such anymore. Technically, we cannot say kompa is the creole translation (the m would be omitted in such a translation; silly, I know...) So, I suggest: "Compas or kompa (konpa)" I don't know why I didn't think of this way before. Savvyjack23 (talk) 02:27, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Singing and dancing since the 1800s

 * Delete the words "that people have been dancing and singing since the 1800s" from the lede and footnote 2. I know Pintade just added it here but the source itself states that it is about when meringue started (technically when carabineer, the even further prior genre) not when compas started. It's misleading as other reliable sources state that compas did not come into being until the 1960s. It's pretty odd to say that the compas genre has been around since the 1800s based on a source that states that the predecessor to the predecessor genre started then.-- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * (2) Compas is meringue, the only difference is that it has evolved a bit of course since the 1800s but the dance is still the same. This source uses meringue/compas in reference to the dance in the same manner. So is the 1800s statement far-fetched or original work? No Names are just names. An example: Salsa music, which is a Cuban music genre based on Cuban son, was coined Salsa by Puerto Ricans living in New York. Cubans call Salsa music Casino. Today, they are using the name Timba, which has added new modern elements to their Casino but it is still a Salsa/Casino sort of like Rock and Roll and Alternative Rock; still forms of rock music. Sort of like meringue and nouvelle generation compas. Nemours Jean-Baptiste did not create a new sound at the time, he only re-branded it from meringue to compas direct (or compas for short). Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Your source says that Nemours wants to claim it was a different and distinct. Is it the same or a different genre? If it's the same, then why is there a separate article? The article on Timba mentions that the roots are from the 1940s but that the genre started in the 1980s. Salsa_music says it started in the 1970s. You are advocating that we say people have been singing and dancing compas music for a hundred years before the genre existed. Actually, according to the Manuel source, it was the prior dance style that's been done since the 1800s. The discussion of when mergenue was danced belongs at Merengue (dance). When it was sung belongs at Merengue music. What is your point here? You could say "compas is part of a tradition of singing and dancing that's been done since humans first came here" if you really want to go all the way back. It's meaningless then. That's a reason the article has been edit warred so heavily, there's random statements that discuss dozens of different genres without rhyme or reason. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:39, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

@Ricky816822 Here is the original part "Compas...is a modern méringue, the national music genre of Haiti that people have been dancing and singing since the 1800s. Popularized by Haitian sax and guitar player Nemours Jean-Baptiste in 1955" I don't see that much confusion. Since meringue is the real name of this mid-tempo style it makes sense to stress it out. If you read Monroy de St. Marry, Jean fouchard, Dr. Dumerve and even Catier, etc. you will learn that the meringue has been around since the early 1800s. Remember the minuet was a couple dance alike the gavotte that French people are still dancing the same way in the South of France; Alsace Loraine. The menuet and the slow meringue are danced the same way. The meringue is often called a "minuet-Congo". Nemours hasn't changed anything in the meringue dance, as a matter of fact, his first tunes were meringue from the great "Super Jazz des Jeunes". He even went to court to justify the use of these music sheets. (off record) So the merit of Nemours has been to render the meringue lighter unlike the big meringue bands such "Orchestre Isa El Sahe", Super Jazz des Jeunes, "Orquestre Septan trional", etc. Another point is the starting of Nemours' band from "Conjunto international": My answer is that Nemours and Sicot have been playing together for a long time. Nemours ensemble was first a reduced "Ensemble Atomic" replacing "orchestre citadel" in which Nemours was maestro. the band was reduced to 6 musicians but soon it accommodated more musicians to become a full band "ensemble aux callebasses". Nemours officially presented his band on July 1955 and since it has kept the same basic features. I hope I brought something to this discussion. RegardsPintade (talk) 06:20, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you arguing about the music or the dance? Because this article to my understanding is about the music and Merengue (dance) is about the dance. Articles are incoherent if you just want to make every article about the entire full history of Haitian music and dance. It's about staying on the topic so that's it's not duplicative across multiple places. According to Michael R. Hall, "Jean-Baptists's creation of the band Conjuncto International in 1955 marks the foundation for a new genre. I don't care what Pintade thinks: your opinions does not qualify as a reliable source. If you are right, then you should be able to find someone who agrees with you and include here; stop telling me I need to read the sources that you aren't listing here. If St. Marry, Fouchard, everyone supports your view, why can't you just cite them and then we can move on? It doesn't have to be online, I don't really care where your sources are as long as they are accurate. If you can't, then your views are clearly just a fringe theory that's inappropriate to include here. My issue is that the lede should be on the actual title of the article, namely the genre of compas music, not on the entire history of Haitian music. Finally, the source itself says "the carabineer, which in both salon and rustic folk forms, acquired the status of a national dance in the early 1800," so I am really starting to question whether people are accurately reading these sources or just copying and pasting whatever has some string of words they like. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:53, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

By the way, the Merengue (dance) is Dominican. It's not danced the same way at all. The Dominican music variant is way too fast for the Haitian dance for starters (faster than zouk beton). Perhaps, a dance page should be made for Méringue as well? But again, that's another undertaking, which I lacked sources for initially. It is true that méringue dance has remained vertically untouched. The carabineer (karabinye) has evolved into the meringue dance. So essentially this could still be true pending additional sources. See: [http://books.google.com/books?id=gwEL9mUcVA8C&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=haitian+contredanse&source=bl&ots=4bsQ1Kcn4_&sig=1vZ3F9EHJ-VpHtPeSo61h0vagzM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FtooU822Acjn0gGQiIDADA&ved=0CCcQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=haitian%20contredanse&f=false A Day for the Hunter, a Day for the Prey: Popular Music and Power in Haiti by Averill, Gage pg. 33] Savvyjack23 (talk) 02:43, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Let's stop with the sources. My issue isn't the source totally, it's a question of what's an appropriate lead sentence. My reading of WP:LEAD is that we should a clear concise first sentence to the article, namely "Compas (also known as konpa or kompa) is a modern méringue musical genre in Haiti with European and African roots." I want a period there and be done with it. Adding "that people have been singing and dancing since the 1800s" makes little sense (and contrasts with the infobox) especially when you admit that the basis for this is the historical background of the prior genres. Are you saying that compas has been sung since the 1800s? If so, then we should change the infobox but again the sources don't state that. Instead of deleting it, can we at least agree to move it to the history section and properly put it in context? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:04, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Etymology

 * Delete the second sentence of the first paragraph under the "Etymology and characteristics" section. It's pretty much WP:OR to claim that a spelling that is used is "botched" but also it's entirely OR to do that based on a link to a dictionary (the version of which is dead and is not likely an RS of a proper dictionary anyways). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * (3) Botched is a borrowed word. Dead link? Sure, maybe now. See:  pg. 285 Also, tell me if you can find a "mb" or a "mp" in the words that begin with the letter k. See:  So the statement of botched and not understanding the phonetic between French to Haitian Creole is CORRECT. Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no source that it's "wrong" other than your interpretation of what the dictionaries say. That's synthesizing sources which is another example of original research. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:39, 5 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Is there a specific source that says, you can't spell a Comb with a k? That's why we have dictionaries. That is not synthesizing sources. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:12, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Are there sources that spell comb with a 'k'? At what point do you acknowledge that it's an alternative spelling and not a 'wrong' spelling? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:39, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, I say what you are saying though, a source that says kompa is spelled wrong other than a blog. Again, not easy. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:23, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm saying it's better not to open the argument. It's a translation and I'm certain there's plenty of translations that people find 'wrong' everywhere. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:59, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

You know I was thinking about this and I agree with you. It is definitely called kompa way more than it is konpa whether incorrect or not. It is a name; names are notorious for being spelled incorrectly anyway. I think kompa should take priority and the part about the "mb" or a "mp etc." be omitted. It can maybe be a note or something. I think it hinders that section of the article. Savvyjack23 (talk) 02:19, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Mini-jazz

 * Delete the third paragraph under mini-jazz. The first sentence adds little and there's no source that any of those musicians would even consider their music to be compas music. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * (4) "Young musicians added an electric guitar to their compas ensemble, which further lead to Mini-Jazz." See pg. 73 If you listen to Mini-Jazz musicians, they shout out both Jazz and Compas. Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * "If you listen ...." is not a reliable source but your personal opinion. If I disagree, should we just edit war until one of us wins? That's not a way to resolve this. "Young musicians" aren't those specific musicians. You're making an opinion about which ones you think belong there. Again, that's not a way to resolve this and all you'll guarantee is edit warring over which musicians belong where. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:39, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

@Ricky81682 Why you're deliberately concerned about eliminating this part of the mini-jazz section, which explains the contribution of these young musicians to the style? tell me? is this really an important priority? I guess if we are here to edit and talking about music, once should be paying attention to CD or Album review? There should be comparative review, critical thinking. remember what make a style are mostly its distinguishable characteristics. In the case of the mini-jazz how could you just state that they did know whether they were playing compas? could this be relevant? I guess you need to review " Les gypsies, Les shleu shleu, tabou combo, difficiles, les vickings, etc. that everybody was dancing...same way as today. the same dance whether in the French Antilles or Haiti? same conga-cowbell-drum team up. in was that time these musicians developed their guitar scratch and intricate styles. I don't think you need to delete this part. it's counter productive. RegardsPintade (talk) 06:36, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I really hate repeating this again and again but you are not a reliable source. We don't go by what our editors think is the right answer. I want the section removed because the moment you add that section and someone else says they hear something different, the two of you fight over it which can continue forever. If I listened to all those albums and told you I disagreed with you then how do you propose we settle this? Just reverting each other until someone else locks the article? As to the specific musicians, the same reasoning applies: do we just go by whoever anyone thinks is an example of the mini-jazz genre? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:40, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

While compas musicians added mini-jazz to their repertoire, the two genres are NOT the same. The reference I mentioned above wasn't solid, as it offered a minor review of the genre and I debate some of its accuracy. I will attempt to locate others. Savvyjack23 (talk) 02:14, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Fusion of kadans and calypso

 * Delete the sentence "This fusion of kadans and calypso accounts...." under Cadence-lypso. The only reference for that statement is a listing of a series of albums I believe which means WP:OR. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * (5) WRONG See pg. 92 "Cadence-lypso was created out of Trinidadian Calypso and Haitian cadence-rampa...''" Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok, I can't see it so I won't argue with you. Would you agree to remove the current list of albums in replace of your source? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:39, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I would use this source. But I don't know what you mean by current list of albums. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:16, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Footnote 19 says " Grammacks: mediba (kadans), banana (sweet kadans), ou pa bon, (kadans), ou pitit (kadans), reggae down, disco live (kadans) this same tune is categorized as zouk retro by Deejay Zak (midlay kadans 11/24/2011) Exile one: akiyaka, gade deye...(Midnight) get ready 1997, etc." It seems like a list of songs at least by either Grammacks or Exile One with a random comment about DJ Zak. This is a list of primary sources and thus WP:OR. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:38, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I can't speak for those. I actually removed them in favor of a much more credible and accessible source. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:16, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm a little confused. Are you ok with me replacing the list of albums with the reference you provided? As I said, I can't see the actual text but the URL you have links to page 100 while you cite page 99. The book is referenced in multiple places at least. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:12, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, please replace all albums as references. If the sources I provided can cover those, I think it would be in the reader's best interest to refer back to that instead. Savvyjack23 (talk) 02:10, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Haitianmusic.net

 * Remove footnote 21 from the Cadence-lypso section. The website linked is a self-published blog and does not qualify as reliable source per WP:BLOGS. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * (6) WRONG See pg. 92 "Cadence-lypso was created out of Trinidadian Calypso and Haitian cadence-rampa...''" Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm questioning the source and asking to remove the footnote. There's no change to the sentence itself I'm asking for. What do you think about haitimusic.net, that's the issue to me. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:39, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Well Haitianmusic.net is a blog so you already know the answer to that but I would love to know where they got his sources from and I mean that in a good way. While I was expanding the genres of Haiti, they seemed to have them all already which isn't easy to muster up. Some of the genres haven't been heard since colonial times and early Haiti, and are not known to the average person from that country. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:15, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok, but perhaps the source is the blog. The question is, should we continue to use it knowing it's not a WP:RS? I have no objection to keeping the text for now but footnote 22 is the wrong book title and I imagine it's not even close to accurate but I haven't checked. That's the reason I check Google books regularly, it generally has access to good material but if not I've gone and borrowed books from the library before. It's a matter of how serious people are about getting accurate reliable information here or if they just want this as a soapbox. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:03, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I say let's keep this for now. In the meantime, I am going to try to find sources to verify what was said on this blog, so we can essentially replace it in the end. CAREFUL, some of the Google books I've added when I was much newer to Wikipedia, the sources are correct but I might have messed up on the page numbers. I can double check that also. I wasn't sure which genre from Haiti it was. Thanks for mentioning it. Savvyjack23 (talk) 02:09, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Kizomba

 * Delete the first paragraph of the Kizomba section. The source provided is another blog but it's also marketing for a company that advertises Kizomba lessons which makes it problematic. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * (7) If Kizomba is a deravtive of Zouk (not 80s Zouk Beton), then how is it not the derivative of ''Cadence (kadans)/Compas (konpa, kompa) if Zouk-love (Zouk) is the French Antilles' compas music? (Yes, confusing right?) Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm questioning the source Kizombalove.com. Would you at least agree to remove that citation? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:39, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Cape Verdean singer

 * From the next paragraph, remove the first sentence ("Today, Cape Verdean singers have gained ...."). There's no source for any of them and Lubrano is a WP:BLP issue
 * (8) I had this source somewhere, I will attempt to find it. Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Fine, I'll let it go but it's open to arguments to just list artists without any reliable third-party sources that discuss them. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:39, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * No you're absolutely right. I haven't located my source on this yet. Right now, I cannot verify this. This probably would be removed until then. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Notable heading

 * Remove the words "or méringue" from the Notable artists heading. Compas is a type of meringue so including the larger group is overly broad and outside the scope of this article. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * (9) I AGREE, it should not be called meringue artists, it should be called Compas musicians etc. Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Great. Are there artists who should be removed from the list there? I'd ask to remove all the red links but I'll let it go for now. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:39, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Well with the extensive list of red links prior, I simply attempted to leave myself a paper trail. Between the 1970s-80s there were a huge label signings of artists with this sound. All of those articles in which will be create but as you can see...you guessed it, a TON of work for a solo editor. So I'll go back eventually and contribute, thus removing the red links. I suppose the notable factor plays a part in it as well. But notable to who? That's the question. The country or the world? Most of them are notable though, and did tour outside of their perspective countries. However, on that note their are rural bands, that did not make the list. Everyone on that list were signed to a label, which in turn enables anyone present-day to download their music through an online store or purchase. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:24, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Per WP:REDLINKS, it's not clear-cut but the question is one of WP:GNG is fairly clear, are there reliable independent third-party sources about those artists. Signing onto a label is not sufficient, would it pass any of the criteria under WP:MUSICBIO? Can we at least go with criteria 2, those who had a hit single or album on the national chart (including genre charts)? If the band never really had that even, it's not likely to be worth listing. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay yes, most of them had singles, albums and even music videos all done in the studio published and national charts. (Not the U.S. charts for obvious reasons) Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:37, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok, I have the technical ability to edit the article so I just remove meringue for now. I hope there's no objections. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:07, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

What happened exactly with the compas page?
Wikipedia asks for sound references and the compas articles has complied with this requirement. So why this page is under attack for well referred sources stated over and over? why editor with IP # are allowed to modify reliable pages based on scholar researches? Why should Wikipedia readers cannot get the pleasure of reading the full sound compas article? Protection is not required for a good article with solid references, instead these IP # who often come with website references should be prevented from disturbing the steadiness of the article. protection is not effective, in fact it is problematical. I have never asked for protection nor have I reported any editor. the accuracy of an article should be enough to protect it. Considering all the solid references I suggest that the compas page be reinstated in its integrality instead of a partial display. Have a Merry ChristmasPintade (talk) 06:03, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

What happened to the mini-jazz?
The editor who suggested that the mini-jazz be removed because it has no connection to compas is not knowledgeable of Caribbean music. Mini-jazz has been explained clearly as a moment of the compas style. They were reduced bands as opposed to big band with full horn section. After the US occupation band were often name jazz and this can be found in most scholar books. I am surprised to see such an erroneous remark be taken into consideration. Please add the mini-jazz section, which represent an important moment in the compas evolution.Pintade (talk) 05:37, 21 December 2014 (UTC)


 * You are talking about this edit of mine in which I removed the section on mini-jazz. The three paragraphs I removed were not good for the reader. They failed to tell the reader the connection between compas and mini-jazz. I would be happy to see a paragraph written about the connection between compas and mini-jazz, but it will have to be written fresh, because nothing in those old paragraphs was salvageable. Binksternet (talk) 17:57, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Mini-jazz draft
Here is a draft explaining the word Jazz in compas; the original article is also included; please send me your feedback:

Mini-jazz (Haitian Creole: mini-djaz) is a reduced méringue-compas band of the mid-60s characterized by the rock bands formula of two guitars, bass, drum, etc.

The 1915-34 US occupation introduced jazz music to Haiti. During this time and years after, local music groups were sometimes called jazz in comparison to the American big band jazz. The word Jazz became the equivalent of band or orchestra. For instance ‘’super jazz des Jeunes’’ and ‘’jazz Scott’’ were two popular meringue bands among several others during the 40-50s.

During the mid-60s the meringue-compas and cadence of Nemours Jean-Baptiste and Webert Sicot were getting too heavy for the new generation of musicians who dropped the heavy horn section and complex harmony. Most of them were starters who improved overtime. They quickly adopted the rock n roll formula and featured all compas or cadence and slow meringue. In addition to the guitars, bass, drum, conga, cowbell most of them had an alto sax, a keyboard or an accordion. At least two of them had a full horn section. (Les Freres Dejean, Bossa combo).Pintade (talk) 04:39, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Main article: Mini-jazz (Initial article) The mini-jazz movement started in the mid-1960s, small bands called mini-djaz (which grew out of Haiti’s light rock and roll yeye bands of the early 1960s) played konpa featuring paired electric guitars, electric bass, drumset and other percussion, often with a saxophone. This trend, launched by Shleu Shleu after 1965, came to include a number of groups from Port-au-Prince neighbourhoods, especially the suburb of Pétionville. Tabou Combo, Les Difficiles, Les Loups Noirs, Les Frères DéJean, Les Fantaisistes de Carrefour, Bossa Combo and Les Ambassadeurs (among others) formed the core of this middle-class popular music movement.

From 1968 to the 1970s prominent bands like Bossa Combo, Les Shleu Shleu, Les Ambassadeurs, Les Vickings, Les Fantaisistes, Les Loups Noirs, Les Freres Dejean, Les Difficiles, Les Gypsies and mostly the majestic Tabou Combo have exerted a dominance on the Caribbean and many places in Europe and South America musical scene. For example, Tabou Combo has remained on the Paris hit parade for weeks with its "New York City" hit. Tabou did filled New York Central Park in the same period. Guitar based mini-jazz like Les Difficiles and Gypsies influenced many flamenco artists. The guitar was the king instrument.[1]

These young (Haitian mini-jazz) musicians were critical in the creation of new technics that contribute to the fanciness of the style. Although Raymond Guaspard (Nemours) had already started it in the 50s, however, guitar players such as Corvington (Les Corvington), Serge Rosenthal (Shleu Shleu), Ricardo/Tiplum (Les Ambassadeurs), Robert Martineau (Les Difficiles/Gypsies/Scorpio/Topvice...), Dadou Pasket (Tabou combo/Magnum Band), Jean Claude Jean (Tabou Combo/Super Star...), Claude Marcellin (Les Difficiles/D.P. Express/Zèklè...), Police Nozile (Les Frères Déjean/D.P. Express...) and many more have created intricate mostly rhythmic guitar styles that constitute a strong distinguishable feature of the méringue.[RegardsPintade (talk) 04:37, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Trademark claim
I've removed the text around it as I can't find it ever having been trademarked, and the references do not support that. They actually contradict that idea. If you can show an active trademark we can work on the wording. Jerod Lycett (talk) 00:46, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 26 November 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: '''No consensus to move. Concerns not addressed during discussion.''' (non-admin closure)  Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 19:01, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Compas → ? – I found this page while looking for COMPAS (software). There are other similarly-named pages, including Compás (or flamenco), Grupo Compás, Le Compas, Compas (album) and certain individuals with Compas as a surname including Jonathan Compas, all listed on Compas (disambiguation). I have no opinions whether this page should be renamed Compas (musical genre), Compas direct, Haitian Konpa, or anything else - but I believe the page Compas should point to the disambiguation page. Lamacha9617 (talk) 16:21, 26 November 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:13, 3 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and also WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. See |Compas_(album)|COMPAS_(software)|COMPAS_(company)|Cooperation_Manufacturing_Plant_Aguascalientes|Rob_Compas|Tanya_Compas page views for related topics, this one gets the vast majority, except for COMPAS (software)... but that's an acronym (and could actually be the primary topic for COMPAS, per WP:DIFFCAPS). is a redirect, but I'm sceptical that a flamenco time signature rises to the level of primacy as an entire Hawaiian musical genre. Plus it has a diacritic. All in all, there's no reason for this move to go ahead.  &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 16:41, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Move to Kompa which is used by reliable sources    and provides WP:NATURAL disambiguation. 162 etc. (talk) 17:20, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The "compas" spelling has not been surpassed by the "kompas" spelling to the degree necessary to establish a common name alternative. The vast majority of sources keeps the "compas" spelling established by Nemours Jean-Baptiste. Binksternet (talk) 17:56, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
 * compas (disambiguation). In ictu oculi (talk) 18:00, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Haiti has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:12, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject France has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:12, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Music/Music genres task force has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:13, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject African diaspora has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:13, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.