Talk:Composite bow

Comment
Good article, but you didn't mention anything about the string, such as what it was made of and how it is attached to the bow.

Not bad, but I believe there were problems with the glue in wet weather. -- ???

Someone (68.1.175.249) has added a comment to the effect that fish glue is less sensitive than hide glue to moisture. This is unreferenced and I propose to remove it. Richard Keatinge 09:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Not to mention the it was difficult to get the correct tiller. Without the correct tiller, it's difficult to even keep from losing the string when shooting. Very sensitive stuff.

My nitpick is in the bibliography, actually. The books are titled "The Traditional Bowyer's Bible".

Comments
The English in here is rather bad. The article is choppy, sometimes repetitive, and is often vague in addition to having some grammatical errors. Cleanup is required.

As noted above, there should be some sources, perhaps someone with knowledge of bows and a reference book could add additional information.

Micaelus 04:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I have had a go, adding and editing quite a large section from Bow (weapon), though there is plenty of room for further cleanup and improved references. Richard Keatinge 16:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there actual evidence that Asian nomads invented the bow? If this is merely "conceivable," the assertion should be restated in less specific terms or else dropped. PhD 14:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Good question. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that anyone else invented the things, but nobody wrote the details down at the time. Can you suggest a better phrase? Richard Keatinge 21:23, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I have added some notes of caution about bow performance. Kooi concludes that "The results of this research further indicate that the development of archery equipment may not be a process involving progressive improvements in performance. Rather, each design type represents one solution to the problem of creating a mobile weapon system capable of hurling lightweight projectiles. While a composite bow displays considerable design and technological innovations when compared to a self bow, it will not necessarily shoot an arrow farther or faster. Performance criteria such as those applied by Pope and Hamilton ignore the fact that a good or bad bow may only be gauged within the context of the functional requirements of the archer." I have added some comments which I hope may put occasional over-enthusiastic claims into a sound engineering perspective. Richard Keatinge 12:15, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm puzzled by the sentence regarding asymmetric bows: "To some extent, this combines the power of a longer bow with the convenience of a shorter one." Technically speaking, a longer bow will be more flexible (and hence have lower draw weight and therefore less "power") than a shorter bow of the same width and thickness. I wonder if an explanation based on tillering or reduced stress on the material is more appropriate. Otherwise, I am thinking about removing or rewording that sentence. - Jtma (talk) 12:07, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, the phrasing was mine and could certainly be improved. I was trying to express the idea that, on a horse, a shorter lower limb allows the archer to use the bow more freely. The overall bow length (and hence draw length and energy stored) can be kept up by having a longer upper limb. Richard Keatinge (talk) 12:23, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * No worries. The reasoning is akin to the why the Japanese Yumi is asymmetric. However, the Manchus successfully used very large, symmetric composite bows (up to 1.7 m in length when strung) from horseback. It could be the Manchus developed an innovative horseback shooting technique suitable for large bows, but it also makes me wonder whether there's more to bow asymmetry than just horseback usage. Let me ask around and get back to this point later. - Jtma (talk) 12:50, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Responding to Image request
The main article on bows has this "modern reconstruction of a historical composite bow", if that helps. --Grimhelm (talk) 14:38, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

...The bow in the image is made of fiberglass. I was going to leave it until we can get an image of a genuine item. But I'll leave it in for now. Richard Keatinge (talk) 18:06, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I peruse a forum that some horn bow makers regularly visit. If I asked one of them for permission to use a photograph of their work on Wikipedia, would that suffice? - Jtma (talk) 12:50, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * If the author gives their permission in the specific form required by Wikipedia (see Requesting copyright permission), I think that's fine, not that I'm a lawyer. Definitely not if they won't, and worth noting that it's not OK if they just say it's fine to use on Wikipedia. Richard Keatinge (talk) 13:41, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Great, I'll ask. The guy in question is a bowyer named Gao Xiang. He doesn't speak English, so we'll see if it's successful. In the meantime, let me give you a preview of the photos he posted on the forum: unstrung Kaiyuan bow and strung Kaiyuan bow. - Jtma (talk) 15:53, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * So I have replaced the initial photo with one of a genuine horn, bamboo, sinew composite. I obtained permission from Gao Xiang himself, and have submitted an email to the OTRS team for verification. - Jtma (talk) 01:17, 23 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Many thanks. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:27, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Source for poundage
Does anyone have a reliable source for the claims of high poundage in the lede: Some Mongolian composite bows are known to have been able to produce a draw weight of nearly 160 lb (72.5 kg).? - CompliantDrone (talk) 15:48, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I removed the claim since no one has provided a source for over six months. - CompliantDrone (talk) 06:15, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a to-do for the future, but Stephen Selby's "Chinese Archery" contains historical sources that state Chinese horn bow draw weights were typically in the 70 kg range. I'm sure composite bows from other cultures had similar poundages. - Jtma (talk) 11:44, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Another reference: Adam Karpowicz's "Ottoman Turkish Bows: Manufacture & Design" discusses war bows in the 120 lb range. - Jtma (talk) 12:07, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Good article?
Is it time for a nomination? Richard Keatinge (talk) 16:54, 20 May 2011 (UTC)


 * To answer my own question, I hope so, and I have added the nomination. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:27, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

multiple changes
I have removed "The composite construction can be an asset in regions where suitable wood for self bows is on short supply, but woods which can stand either draw stress (such as birch) or compression stress (such as pine) but not both are abundant. Woods which would not make a decent bow on themselves can be successfully combined to make a bow." which seems to apply to laminated bows rather than to composite bows made with horn. The word "raids" was added to "incursions"; I can't see that this adds anything. A list of possibly or definitely Turkic peoples who did indeed use composite bows has been added; we don't need a complete list here and the sentence already mentions Turkic peoples. Finally, the arms of Savonia have been added, featuring a drawn recurved bow. I don't see any reliable evidence that it was in fact composite and while this image might possibly be of interest, I'd suggest that a good reference for the fact of it being a composite bow, and for some comment about its use in the area, might be better. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments on advantages section
I am surprised that there is no mention of the increased energy storage potential in composite limbs. The effect is well described in Clarence Hickman's 1935 patent 2,100,317. In short, if you take a 2x4 piece of wood, cut it into 2 1x4's, bend them circularly to the point of almost breaking, and glue them together, here's what happens: the laminated 2x4 will support 50% more weight before breaking while supporting a load that is trying to un-bend it (it breaks easily in the other direction). It will also bend 50% further (in one direction only) before breaking. The laminated 2x4 will store up to 2.25X more energy. Hickman achieved over 2X energy storage in reality. Here's a great article that was pointed out to me on a message board:.

The 1997 article by Kooi and Bergman is not a reputable source for the claim that there is little practical benefit to composite bows, other than smaller size. They only mathematically modeled non-composite bows, and from the text, they are clearly unaware of the effects of laminating highly stressed layers. They attributed the flight distance records of composite bows only to improved materials, and show a clear lack of understanding of composite materials. On the other hand, they never claimed to be experts in laminated materials. Taking their quote in their conclusions as evidence that there is little benefit to composite bows is a poor choice, IMO.

Recently, archery forums have talked a lot about "Perry reflex", as well. As an example, user avcase describes a 6-lamination limb, where two sets of three layers are first laminated in low stress, but high curvature. These two curved limbs are then forced straight and laminated together, creating a straight limb with 2X the energy storage potential (in only one direction) compared to a self-bow of the same wood. This shows that beneficial stress in composite bows can be used in any desired shape. Hickman's patent described this very well. I would recommend citing Hickman and describing this important benefit of composite bows.WaywardGeek (talk) 10:39, 27 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think that patents are reliable sources in our sense, even if they specifically described composite bows which this one doesn't. The lamination example you mention is interesting, but we would need a better source for that as well. Richard Keatinge (talk) 09:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

More comments
http://www.manchuarchery.org/did-qing-ban-archery-mongolia This site seems to be arguing that the idea that the Manchus banned archery in Mongolia is just a myth.
 * It may be. But it is supported by a moderately-respectable reference. And the site you quote is not usable for Wikipedia, nor are its arguments which are circumstantial and would be the worst kind of original research if presented here. Richard Keatinge (talk) 09:22, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

The section on analogous bows in the new world ends with "The full three-layer composite bow with horn, wood, and sinew does not seem to be recorded in the Americas, and horn bows with sinew backing are not recorded before European contact" which seems to be a bit misleading. Yes there was a lot that wasn't recorded before European contact but sinew-backed bows made of buffalo or bighorn sheep horns do seem to have been well known to tribes of the Great Plains and American Northwest with a number of surviving examples in various museums. I know for certain that there are a couple of horn bows at Idaho State University. 97.121.9.8 (talk) 00:04, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * They're very difficult to build without good saws for the horn. We aren't asserting that they definitely didn't exist, we are following our sources and saying that horn bows are not recorded before contact. Richard Keatinge (talk) 09:22, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Far earlier
composite bows are depicted far earlier than the 2nd millennium, e.g. Uruk Stele, c. 3500 BCE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C2:23C2:F201:E8BE:BE94:6A5E:8FC3 (talk) 13:24, 14 October 2016 (UTC)


 * We would need reputable secondary sources to say so here. Richard Keatinge (talk) 13:43, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

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composite bow depicted on indus civilization seal
This seal is from NW Afghanistan indus site and displayed in schoyen gallery MS 2645.

indus civilization composite bow 202.188.53.210 (talk) 04:59, 11 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Interesting. The drawn bow on the left does seem to show significant reflex. The two strung bows on the right do not. To include this in the article, however, we would need a reliable source guessing that it does indeed depict a composite bow - it's possible to make a self bow with considerable reflex - and I'd guess that an actual dated relic would be useful. Also, what can be said about the dating of this seal? Richard Keatinge (talk) 21:05, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * mature harappan 2600-1900 BC 202.188.53.210 (talk) 10:12, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Disadvantages section
The disadvantages section could use better citations. There are basically no citations backing up the claims about certain humid areas using the composite bows less— the only cite is the Strategikon reference. All the other links are just precipitation charts. Having a direct cite for these claims would be really helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1007:B116:4F6B:98D:7E78:507D:CA98 (talk) 01:47, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Decurve bows in the Sahara
At this edit I have removed a claim that composite bows were known in the Tassili plateau in the Mesolithic. This is referenced to a nice piece of rock art that shows a decurve bow. The art isn't dated and isn't diagnostic of a composite bow.

I have also removed a comment about Saharan charioteers in the Mesolithic. I agree that the rock art given as a reference does represent a chariot, and it's obvious enough that we could say so. But again, it isn't dated. And, since it doesn't include a bow, it isn't relevant to this article.

The book doesn't seem to support any of the comments made here. In particular, searching it for "composite" brings up nothing, and while bows are mentioned and so are San, there's no obvious indication that it mentions San people in the Sahara or anywhere near it. Or composite bows.

Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:18, 11 November 2020 (UTC)


 * At this edit you have reinstated the original research with the comment "Rv, WP:OR". I note you're a new editor and I wonder if you are quite clear about what WP:OR is, why we're not supposed to do it, and why we're supposed to remove it rather than reinstate it? Richard Keatinge (talk) 18:18, 11 November 2020 (UTC)


 * First of you have not assumed good faith and revert the edit calling it WP:OR when it was not, second this is the Composite bow wiki and third the time book mentions of the bow is the Epipaleolithic which is Mesolithic for Europe. Toltol15 (talk) 18:04, 11 November 2020 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) I'm happy to assume your entire good faith, but the edit is still OR for the reasons that I give. Indeed, this page is about composite bows - the references are not and don't belong here. And the book does mention bows in Bubaline art, which dates them to before 5,000 BP and indeed to the local Epipaleolithic / Mesolithic, but it still doesn't mention composite bows.


 * Would you be kind enough to check our OR policy, and possibly then remove the offending comment? Richard Keatinge (talk) 18:18, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The rock art is dated to 12ka I don't know what you are talking about. Toltol15 (talk) 18:31, 11 November 2020 (UTC)


 * If either of these pictures, or mention of chariots, bows etc is more specifically dated, please let us have the exact reference. A reasonable extract from the book would suffice. I don't think that any such reference exists. Some of the rock art may go as far back as 12000 BP, but that doesn't imply that any specific artwork does so. Richard Keatinge (talk) 21:21, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Reliable sources
This article contained a reference to the so-called "Silk Road Foundation", also known as "Silk Road". It's an online publisher. The website can be found here:

https://www.silkroadfoundation.org

This publication sometimes refers to itself as "Silk Road Journal", but should NOT be confused with Silk Road Journal Online, which has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

The Silk Road Journal in question is based primarily around Asian archaeology and history. It typically publishes theoretical articles written by researchers who appear to mostly hail from Russia and China. The sole editor of the publication, an American man named Daniel Waugh, has candidly stated that it has no formal peer review:

http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/newsletter/vol15/srjournal_v15.pdf

From the outset, there has been no formal process of peer review, such as one expects in the standard academic journals. We still solicit articles (a task which largely has devolved on me over the years), though we also receive (but have not been overwhelmed by) unsolicited submissions.

Decisions on what to publish (as with any journal) ultimately rest with the editor, who in this case, for better or worse, has acted as the peer reviewer. I often see what I think is gold in material that could never find its way into a standard academic publication. But the perils of rarely seeking outside opinions may mean things slip through without acknowledgement that a subject has been thoroughly treated elsewhere.

The lack of formal peer review does have the unfortunate consequence that junior scholars hoping to advance in their profession may avoid us, since their promotion will depend in the first instance on peer reviewed publication, however excellent (and widely cited) a piece might be which we would publish. Yet in some cases where there is a premium for academics in other countries to publish in a respected journal in English, we have been able to provide just such an opportunity. Many of the senior scholars we have solicited for contributions have politely refused to write for us, since they are already over-committed [...]

So, the Silk Road Foundation is a speedy publishing mill for primary research that is not formally peer reviewed. The editor describes himself as someone who often sees "'gold in material that would never find its way in to a standard academic publication'". A lot of researchers don't want to be published by Silk Road Foundation, and those that do are disproportionately from non-English speaking countries, who struggle to get their theories published in standard English-language journals.

To my mind, this is very near to the definition of predatory publishing, with the exception that the Silk Road Foundation does not even provide the benefits of high-end predatory puboishers, like DOI. It's really more like an internet blog.

The Silk Road Foundation is cited on various ethnical and archaeological articles on Wikipedia, often advancing pet theories, which is out of touch with WP:RS, which says that Wikipedia should prioritize high-quality, peer reviewed secondary research over this kind of stuff.

Although I'm not aware of any controversial material in this particular Wiki article related to its Silk Road Foundation reference, and I have no enmity for the Silk Road Foundation or its publisher, or its authors, this source does not meet Wikipedia's standards for reliable sources, and should not be cited. Hunan201p (talk) 08:02, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Working tips
The Scythian section speaks much about a "working tips" phenomenon, but I'm not seeing this mentioned in the source given:

http://www.atarn.org/chinese/scythian_bows.htm

I am unable to verify Otto Maenchen Helfen, but even so, his work can only purely theoretical and not based in archaeology, as the only forensic and experimental research on these bows dates to the very recent 21st century.

I don't doubt that earlier authors theorized about a "lift-off" effect from working tips, but strong doubts have been cast on this hypothesis. For example:

https://atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/Scythian_bow_ATARN.pdf

and,

Also, the Wiki says that lathes are totally absent in Scythian bows. Again the source predates the forensic examinations of Scythian bows, which did reveal wooden grip lathes:

So the article needs a bit of clarification here and there - Hunan201p (talk) 17:27, 7 July 2022 (UTC)