Talk:Comprehensive school/Archive 1

State School?
Why does the introduction say that a comprehensive is a State school? Surely they only criteria is that there is no selection on academic ability? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domminico (talk • contribs) 13:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The normal name for a school in Britain run by a town, county or central government is a state school. The name excludes fee charging private schools.  (The USA is using very poor English when it calls its regions states.)  Andrew Swallow (talk) 02:23, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Possible Dispute
Whilst I appreciate - and welcome - the additional detail I am not happy about the tone and approach of recent edits. References in favour of comprehensive education have been removed and replaced with dubious party political references. For example you have deleted the reference to the fact (please note - fact) that Margaret Thatcher during her time as education secretary continued the policy of the previous Labour government on comprehensive schools. In fact most of the changeover from the tripartite system to the comprehensive system happened in the period 1968-75, mostly under a Conservative administration.

The material on the merits of the system is now biased because you have deleted the main arguments in favour which were:

"Supporters of the comprehensive system argue that it is unacceptable on both moral and practical grounds to select children on the basis of their ability. They also argue that comprehensive schools in the UK have allowed millions of children to gain access to further and higher education, and that the previous selective system relegated children who failed the eleven plus examination to a second class and inferior education."

Additionally the current article makes a whole series of evidence free value judgements about comprehensive education – such as:

“There is a widespread perception, shared by many of the system's advocates, that the comprehensive system has not been the success hoped for.”

“Academic performance is usually well below selective schools. This is unsurprising, since selective schools will have a natural advantage over comprehensives. However, it can be argued that the difference cannot be explained by differences in students alone.”

Who argues this? Where is the evidence for this assertion?

“In spite of the intentions of a ‘grammar school education for all’, many comprehensive schools lack resources and good teachers.”

Whose intention was it to provide a 'grammar school for all'? What evidence exists that the lack of resources and teachers is worse in comprehensives schools? Supporters would argue that teaching in a grammar school is easier than teaching in a comprehensive and that grammar school teachers would not be able to cope in the comprehensive environment.

These are not isolated examples and I am considering a wholesale rewrite of both these pages. But I feel I ought to seek comment from the authors – a courtesy not extended to me as the original author – before I do so.

Shropshire Lad

Response
While I understand that you feel strongly on the changes I have made here, I'm not certain that you're aware of the context in which it took place. Over the past two months I have been researching and writing revisions to the articles on the tripartite system, a subject that suffers from considerable neglect on the internet. Partly because of the large amount of information on comprehensive education I picked up in the process, and partly as a result of the major changes in the information carried by related articles, I felt that a thorough rewrite would help improve the situation. I found myself making so many changes that it seemed sensible to undertake a full rewrite to give the article a coherent style. I did not do so lightly, knowing that it would upset previous authors. However I hoped that they would understand the scale of surrounding changes and the organisational changes that had taken place.

I suspect that you may be unaware of some of the new information put up as a result. In partciular, you may wish to look at Debates on the grammar school, which puts the arguments for both sides on the merits of the tripartite system as articulated since the 1940s. You may also not have seen the large amount of information about discussions over the introduction of comprehensive education in the 1960s, located in the main Tripartite System article. While I would sympathise with the idea that this information should be put in the article on the comprehensive, I personally think that debates in the fifties and sixties were about the failings of the existing system, not the merits of its replacement. If you would like to include this information in the article on the Comprehensive system, I would fully understand.

As for what you classify as 'value judgements', I fully accept that these are matters of opinion. However I am saddened that you think I have included these out of personal belief rather than a desire to note contemporary debates about the system. In response to the specific criticisms you raised:


 * “There is a widespread perception, shared by many of the system's advocates, that the comprehensive system has not been the success hoped for.” I took this from the recent radio 4 series 'Comp', which was quoting educationalist Clive Chitty and journalist Melissa Benn, both of whom were and are noted advocates of the Comprehensive system.


 * “Academic performance is usually well below selective schools. This is unsurprising, since selective schools will have a natural advantage over comprehensives. However, it can be argued that the difference cannot be explained by differences in students alone.” This has been argued by Ruth Kelly, Estelle Morris and anyone associated with the government's policy of turning comprehensives into selective schools. While I agree that it is a matter of opinion, it seems to be one shared by the two main parties and many of those preparing the forthcoming White Paper.


 * As for your questions about a 'grammar school education for all', that phrase was the one used in Labour manifestos for several years prior to the issuing of Circular 10/65. If you want a specific use of it, you can find it footnoted at the bottom of the Tripartite System article. It was regularly said by Gaitskell, Crosland and Wilson. I don't think it is unreasonable to point out the difference between intentions and reality in the same way I think it is correct to show that secondary modern schools did not receive the parity of esteem that their architects envisaged.

I recommend that you have a look at the Tripartite article, since other concerns of yours (for example the lack of a reference to the Thatcher-era comprehensivisation) would, in my opinion, be met by the content there.

I suspect that the best way to resolve this dispute is for us to create a new page, counterpart to that about debates on the grammar school. Debates on the comprehensive school could then give space for arguments for and against, and we could remove the inflamatory material from the main page on the comp. I considered doing this earlier, but felt that it overlapped with the grammar debate article. In light of what you have said, I can now see that there is a strong case for such a page, and would be happy to help you flesh it out.

As for wider rewrites, I personally cannot see anything politically motivated in the article on the Comprehensive System. If you see anything, I would be happy for you to correct it. In the article on Comprehensive schools, aside from the section on debates, I accept that there are a few sentences in the history section that could be interpretted in a negative light. This was not my intention, and if you can think of better ways to phrase them it would certainly benefit the article. However I think you might be overreacting in sugesting a full rewrite of both- it seems rather unnecessary to reproduce 80% of the information content. But, if you have the time and genuinely think my writing and research are that poor that they should be replaced, I can do nothing to stop you.

I hope that we can find a way of resolving this calmly and to the benefit of the articles' readers. --Evil Capitalist 17:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC) (Copies on both Shropshire Lad's talk page and at both the relevant articles)

I agree that an article on a contentious topic such as this should have better citations, although I think if wikipedians look on pages such as those on the tripartite system and debates on the grammar school then they will find evidence. Meanwhile let's keep politics out of an encylopaedia.86.137.250.248 15:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Reply
It is a huge jump to go from individual quotes (from Chitty and Benn) to an assertion that this is an opinion shared by many of the system's advocates. The highest profile advocate of the Comprehensive system at the moment is Roy Hattersley, and his view, stated on many occasions, is that the system cannot be judged because it was never fully implemented. In areas where comprehensives have a genuinely mixed intake the schools are usually seen to be very successful.

I also stand by my view that the entire tone of these entries (and I have read the entries on the related pages) is biased. Specifically the argument in favour of academic selection is taken as a given, whilst the main arguments against are either badly put, possibly because you are not familiar with them, or omitted.

The creation of a new page will not solve this dilemma because this is an encyclopaedia, not a debating society. The entries should be as far as is possible factually correct. If a debate exists, as it does in this area, the safest course of action is to attempt a factual summary of the position one leans towards, and leave the opposition to state their own case. You have committed the cardinal sin of putting the opposition's case for them - badly.

Shropshire Lad 19:30, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Reply to reply
On the first point, I think we are talking at crossed purposes here. The people who I said had found the comprehensive system a disappointment also argue that it had not been properly implemented. We are not discussing an abstract idea here, but the comprehensive system as it operates. Hattersley also thinks that the system has not lived up to its initial promise, because of failed implementation. I think we're arguing about unclear wording rather than philosophy here.

You are quite right to point out that this is an encylopedia, and it is one that deals with a number of contentious issues. If you look at pages such as atheism, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or abortion you'll see that one of the important functions of this encyclopaedia is to state differing views on a single topic. To characterise such a function as a 'debating society' is, in my opinion, to underate one of wikipedia's greatest strengths as a source of knowledge.

You are also right to say that I have not done justice to the arguments against selection. However, the alternative was to put no arguments at all, and as you have shown in your response to the section on 'debates' in the Comprehensive Schools article, people find that much more irritating. Those counterarguments are only placeholders until someone better equipped comes along to replace them. I would be very happy to see you edit them so that they meet your standards. --Evil Capitalist 00:21, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Merge request with Comprehensive System
I propose a merger. Both of these articles address the same type of school. Both require attention / expansion / reformatting. Davidkinnen 09:36, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I've redone the two articles. Originally I agreed with you that they should be together, but as I wrote them, I found that the two subjects did seem quite separate. One discussed a type of school, the other an educational system. I felt that keeping them apart was quite helpful, provided that any changes to the articles reflect this difference. --Evil Capitalist 18:30, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I have added a tag to merge this page with Comprehensive System. I did this firstly because I wanted to make a link to an article describing a comprehensive school, discovered there were two articles, and then frankly could not see a discernable difference between the two articles to choose which would be better. they essentialy cover the same ground and describe the same thing. neither is very long. I notice that in fact there is yet a third article entitled Debates on the grammar school which contains arguments relating to comprehensive schools. Maybe there are more still. My preferred title is probably comprehensive school, since I think that is what would be more likely to be typed in, but I am not sure yet. Sandpiper 01:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Support - I agree, these articles should be merged. Although I wouldn't claim to be the person to do it. Incidentally, is there a way that this page can be tidied? Say, move this section ("Further need for merger") up to join the original request, and use indenting to organise the intervening debate? It seems that the original proposal has got lost in a war about the POV of the content. Tafkam 18:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment if anything Comprehensive System should be merged to comprehensive school as the latter is more common. In any case is Comprehensive System a proper term, if not it should be lowercase. Djegan 18:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment - As the articles currently stand, they both have heavy UK point-of-view although they admit UK was originally influenced by Sweden. That in mind, it might make sense to move or merge the current Comprehensive school and start a new, international Comprehensive school. --TuukkaH 20:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Merger done with a little attempt at tidying as well -- Philcrbk 11:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Comprehensive Teachers
I have taught in comprehensive schools for 25 years and I can assure the public of the United Kingdom that not only is the intake of pupils comprehensive but so is the intake of teachers. They have (a few) excellent teachers, most of them are middle ability and there is a large tail too. In this respect comprehensive schools have truly achieved Robin Pedley's aim of reflecting a society that no other kind of school can.

T A F. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.185.248 (talk • contribs) 22:25 + 22:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Technical point
In the 'Operation' section it notes that "All comprehensive schools take pupils from the age of 11 to at least 16." Actually, this isn't quite the case. In three-tier areas, comprehensive schools may be middle schools (taking pupils aged 9-13, or 10-14), or more commonly upper schools, taking pupils from age 12 or 13 through to 16 or 18. I can't quite work out how to re-word that though. Just put 'Most' seems a bit... clumsy. Any suggestions? Tafkam 22:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

German Gesamtschulen missing.
It doesn't even mention the Gesamtschulen in Germany, a form of comprehensive school. It could be done by translating part of the article from the German wikipedia, wich focuses mainly in the situation of comprehensive schools in the Sprachgebiet. The link from Gesamtschulen in the article Education in Germany redirects here, and in tis article, there's not even a mention to those schools.

I know it seems like I'm just criticizing without helping to solve the issue, but my German is way too bad to attempt a translation of the article in the de.wikipedia. I hope some German-speaking wikipedean can help. --Pfc432 02:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)))

>The article is prefaced by the note that it has primarily a UK perspective. Actually I am not sure why. Many articles have a entirely US perspective, but such a note is rarely if ever seen on these.JohnC (talk) 05:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Perspectives: While this is true, John, it also mentions for whatever reason that this school corresponds to the High School system in the US. It also corresponds to the Gesamtschulen-system in Germany, so it might be either worth mentioning, or kicking out altogether, or opening a new category which lists what it corresponds to in other countries. 92.226.91.145 (talk)

Assess for Schools Project
Obviously a high importance for the schools project as this article would classify many schools. However its only a start class as the debate continues. I would have thought that with the seriousness of the debate above then there would be dozens of references to give evidence Victuallers 17:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

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England & Wales start date
I came to this article for background detail on early comprehensive schools but lost interest by line 3 of the introduction, and an apparent date error. An expansion of comprehensive schooling may have occurred in 1965 but it was far from being the date of introduction of state comprehensive schools, as those who moved on to university from comprehensives well before this date will testify. Keomike (talk) 23:37, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Choice
Regarding comprehensive schools in the UK, I think the concept of "school choice" needs to be explained further. Does this mean students can choose to go to any comprehensive school in the country, or is there a list of schools for them to choose from? What if every student wants to attend the same school(s)? Tad Lincoln (talk) 06:28, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Issues
I think we can safely say that merging Comprehensive school with Comprehensive system has failed. The articles were poorly referenced then and they are no better now. If anyone has any ideas on how to rescue them - or would like to work on the task please indicate. I will make a few changes today and come back in a week or so with a few more radical ideas. At the moment I will comment out paragraphs that are unreferenced or breach our principles. Note my new template that may be of use to internationalise some of the text grade --ClemRutter (talk) 14:36, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It is certainly still inadequate- if anything more so. I tweaked the lead a little- if anyone has any ideas for improvement- would they like to share them? --ClemRutter (talk) 16:38, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

External links modified
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Merge with Comprehensive school (England and Wales) and Comprehensive high school
I propose a merge; this page, as well as Comprehensive school (England and Wales), could easily be included as a section of the article for comprehensive schools. Think I'm probably going to just be bold and do it; i'm still going to tag the articles first, however. Anaglyphic (talk) 00:30, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I've started a draft for the proposed merge here. Feel free to comment on it; however, remember that it's still a work in progress. Anaglyphic (talk) 01:00, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I looked at the issue in 20wayback, and held back then. The best we can do is Comprehensive education and Comprehensive school (England and Wales) which can be seen as a instance of Comprehensive education and Secondary education systems in Great Britain.
 * Comprehensive education is a theoretical system- a philosophy deeply entrenched in politics, priviledge, equality and social class. To many in the UK and within UK Wikipedia it is akin to a belief system or a religion. To try and merge that, with the detailing of 50+ differing school systems (differing because of differential central government funding being administered by the differing political make up of elected local government) just creates an overlong lopsided article. On a more practical point the rise and fall of UK comps is well sourced, elsewhere sources appears almost none existant. The theory of comps has whole sections in every academic reference library.
 * A two article system I believe is manageable- trying to compress them into one really is a non-starter. A sandbox is a good idea. Though there is a lot of good material, the articles do need to be planned, structured and rewritten from scratch- not just boiler plated from what we have. ClemRutter (talk) 23:02, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * As I started a draft with the intention of merging all three, i've come to agree with you; there's far too much information on the comprehensive system in the United Kingdom to compile it into one article without making the article unnecessarily long or removing information which would be notable. I'm probably going to remove the merge tag from Comprehensive school (England and Wales), but keep the merge tags for the Comprehensive high school and Comprehensive school. Comprehensive school (England and Wales) should be about the history of comprehensive schools in the United Kingdom, while Comprehensive education (or Comprehensive school, not sure it necessarily needs to be renamed) should be a broader, less detailed article on the modern implementation of the system today, worldwide. Do you agree, ? Anaglyphic (talk) 06:19, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
 * After sleeping on it for many nights, the home for Comprehensive high school is in High school (North America), new section #Comprehensive princple before High school (North America). The article Comprehensive high school is primarily about North American schools not the comprehensive system - the adjective comprehensive could have easily been the synonym 'all-embracing'.  Over and above it strengthens the structure of High school (North America).ClemRutter (talk) 09:43, 22 November 2019 (UTC)