Talk:Compulsory heterosexuality

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Merge?
Is this discussed substantially by people other than Rich? It might be a good idea to merge this article into the article on Rich's book, since at least at the moment it just seems to discuss Rich's arguments. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:44, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Support I think it makes sense to merge it. Sarah (talk) 03:30, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

There are actually quite a few sources on this topic as well as a variety of other ways that the term is applicable. We are working to improve the page, but I think it would be relevant to talk about compulsory heterosexuality and other minority identities, which Rich does not mention. RT896713 (talk) 02:15, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

The sentence “Rich concludes that all of these characteristics contribute to a culture that convinces women that heterosexual relationships and marriage are inevitable, whether by physical force or "control of consciousness," and especially in combination with lesbian erasure.” Seems better to go in the “Lesbian Erasure” section, as this has not yet been defined and therefore might not be common knowledge to the average reader.Lr270306 (talk) 13:14, 7 March 2016 (UTC)lr270306


 * I see there was a call for merger with Rich's book. I support this, tho now some years later, or an outright deletion. The whole article is based on Rich's work. Let the article about Rich's work carry the topic, especially since this article is so derived from Rich's work. Some parts of this article could be moved to heteronormativity. This article, by itself, is not needed as a separate article. Other opinions? Pete unseth (talk) 21:05, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

A possible addition
Would it be possible to add another section that specifically discusses the intersection of compulsory heterosexuality and Black women. There are several scholarly articles that I have come across that discusses this specifically. Sg301209 (talk) 05:19, 15 February 2016 (UTC)Sierra

While Adrienne Rich is not the focus of this article I might suggest you briefly elaborate on who she is *besides the author of Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence) to fill in a little more of the why does her opinion about the subject of compulsory heterosexuality matter. Likewise, I’m wondering who Stevi Jackson is and why their opinion matters for purposes of this article being credible?Lr270306 (talk) 13:14, 7 March 2016 (UTC)lr270306

Phrase change
In the introduction, the phrase "normalcy of heterosexuality" should be replaced by the more standard phrase "heterosexual norm," because the norm itself is under question, not whether it's actually normal. Jon Stansell (talk) 17:07, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

“None of them question or examine the issue of compulsory heterosexuality, or acknowledge that a woman might not choose heterosexuality if she were socialized in a more equal society, and Rich argues that this is emblematic of most feminist theorists.” This sentence feels like the opinion of the author. (talk) 13:11, 7 March 2016 (UTC)Lr270306 (talk) 13:13, 7 March 2016 (UTC)lr270306

“To understand the complexity of compulsory heterosexuality, we must understand how it deferentially affects all populations, including minorities.” This sentence feels like an opinion of the author since it is stated that “we must understand.” talk) 13:11, 7 March 2016 (UTC)Lr270306 (talk) 13:13, 7 March 2016 (UTC)lr270306

Additional suggestions
Overall good article so far!Lr270306 (talk) 13:17, 7 March 2016 (UTC)lr270306

Compulsory heterosexuality should be bolded throughoutLr270306 (talk) 13:17, 7 March 2016 (UTC)lr270306

The section of “factors” that begins with “according” feels like it should maybe have additional citations added”Lr270306 (talk) 13:17, 7 March 2016 (UTC)lr270306

Who are the “colleagues” of Tolman and colleagues? They should probably be listedout (cited). Lr270306 (talk) 13:17, 7 March 2016 (UTC)lr270306

The traits included section under the “Manifestations of male power” section may need to be indented to follow citation for an except exceeding 40 words (block quotations)Lr270306 (talk) 13:17, 7 March 2016 (UTC)lr270306

The first paragraph under the “factors” section may be said to stray a little from the neutrality guideline of Wikipedia.Lr270306 (talk) 13:17, 7 March 2016 (UTC)lr270306

I would double check that all titles of works that are quoted should be in quotes versus italicized should be in italics. Lr270306 (talk) 13:21, 7 March 2016 (UTC)lr270306

I performed some copy editing--wording, title formatting, punctuation. While I though the article was pretty comprehensive, I thought some changes could still be made. Some of the language is confusing--I had to read a few sentences multiple times to work through what was being said--and could be simplified. Quotations and source material should be end noted. Some end notes are missing altogether, while in some instances, other styles of citation are used. Specifically, the title of Kathleen Diebold's article is not included and the quotation in the Sexism in the Labor Force is not cited at all.YbGrrl (talk) 16:22, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Suggested Edits
I would look into or maybe think about adding a section about compulsory heterosexuality for males as well as females. LouisBaragona (talk) 21:00, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Definitely would at least consider changing some of the language (for example the first sentence of Factors section) to be more neutral and fitting for the more factual voice of wikipedia. LouisBaragona (talk) 21:00, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Relies heavily on Adrienne Rich, definitely would beef up the article with other authors and sources. LouisBaragona (talk) 21:00, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Link to page on Louis-Georges Tin. LouisBaragona (talk) 21:00, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Any specific examples of different media agents enforcing compulsory heterosexuality? What TV shows or music for example? LouisBaragona (talk) 21:00, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

More links to other pages. LouisBaragona (talk) 21:00, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

A lot of information comes from Rich, five out of the seven sections start with her name alone suggesting her information dominates the article. Could be helpful to used other people. TRacer202 (talk) 04:38, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

The second reference -- Jackson, Stevi (2006). "nterchanges: Gender, sexuality and heterosexuality: The complexity (and limits) of heteronormativity". Feminist Theory. 7: 105–121. doi:10.1177/1464700106061462. -- requires a subscription to read making it hard to look up for anyone without a subscription. TRacer202 (talk) 04:43, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

diction
Support previous comments about complex / difficult language. While it is a jargon-heavy topic, this article is for a general public who may or may not have gotten even as far as "heteronormativity." Sheistoofondofbooks (talk) 16:58, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Neutrality
This article is written from a perspective within the humanities, rather than objectively. Unless something follows logically from empirical observation, it should not be presented as fact, like the statements in this article are. To be objective, much of this article needs to be changed so that the format is  claimed/argued that/proposed , or similar. I have edited the "Factors" section to be more objective, but other parts are unchanged. 12 June 2016. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.93.233.24 (talk) 09:47, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

The essential sole source of this article comes from Adrienne Rich and her paper "Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence". This creates a singular viewpoint that is overrepresented and adds bias to the article. For example, there is a section devoted to lesbian, but other orientations are neglected or limited in content. The other sources for this article, however present, are overshadowed and explained in reference to Adrienne Rich. Eerisman (talk) 02:32, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Adding More to Sections
Hi! I am thinking of adding more to the Religion section, as well as adding more sources to Compulsory Heterosexuality in Males for a deeper analysis... And possibly black culture and religion and heteronormativity.

Here are my sources:

Monroe, Irene. "A Garden of Homophobia: Our Black Churches Are Fertile Soils for Planting and Cultivating Homo Hatred." The Advocate 748 (1997): 9. Print.

Endsjø, Dag Ølstein. Sex and Religion : Teachings and Taboos in the History of World Faiths. London, GB: Reaktion Books, 2012. ProQuest ebrary. Web. 23 February 2017.

Pettegrew, John. Gender Relations in the American Experience : Brutes in Suits : Male Sensibility in America, 1890–1920. Baltimore, US: Johns Hopkins University Press, 2007. ProQuest ebrary. Web. 23 February 2017.

Dellamora, Richard. Masculine Desire: The Sexual Politics of Victorian Aestheticism. Chapel Hill (N.C.): U of North Carolina, 1994. Print.

Birden, S., L. L. Gaither, and S. Laird. "The Struggle Over the Text: Compulsory Heterosexuality and Educational Policy." Educational Policy 14.5 (2000): 638-63. Web.

Ldal19 (talk) 21:46, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

On "Topic: Manifestations of Male Power" Section
The first paragraph of this sub-section should be worded as such:

"Rich claims male dominance and its presence in social institutions are major factors in enforcing female heterosexuality. To elaborate this point she cites 'eight characteristics of male power in archaic and contemporary societies' from Kathleen Gough's essay 'The Origin of the Family,'[1]. These characters are: 1. to deny women [our own] sexuality 2. to force it [male sexuality] upon them 3. to command or exploit their labor to control their produce 4. to control or rob them of their children 5. to confine them physically and prevent their movement 6. to use them as objects in male transactions 7. to cramp their creativeness 8. to withhold from them large areas of the society's knowledge and cultural attainments [8] Rich concludes that all of these characteristics contribute to a culture that convinces women that heterosexual relationships and marriage are inevitable, whether by physical force or 'control of consciousness,' and especially in combination with lesbian erasure."

It would be helpful to give an example of how each of these characteristics contribute to a conforming and constricting culture for women and specifically how these characteristics work in homonormative Queer Culture.

Csingl11 (talk) 20:58, 14 February 2018 (UTC)Chris

Revisions
I've been working on revising this article to be more neutral and expanding sections that are less substantial with more citations, and I am planning to begin adding these shortly. Some sections, however, seem to be better suited to being condensed or rearranged for clarity due to very little substance. Does anyone object to merging "in males" and "intersectionality with other minority identities" into a section titled something like "interaction with other identities?" MelanieACain (talk) 06:43, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Comparison of Homophobia to Racism and Sexism in a quote
"There's little doubt that discrimination against homosexuals is the last "acceptable" form of discrimination. While most folks have outgrown overt racist and sexist attacks, for many people it's still okay to take shots at homosexuals. They are called names, blamed for society's problems, and often humiliated because of their sexual preference." This is a quote in the article (reference #16) which I feel should have [sic] added after '... most folks have outgrown overt racist...' since there is certainly, at least in the United States where I live, a very large amount of racist violence including the recent murder of Breonna Taylor in her own apartment by the police. I'm not sure what the best solution here is, and therefore as a white person I'd rather bring this up as a discussion than change it myself. DancingGrumpyCat (talk) 06:52, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

probable typo in males &sect;
"imitation" is almost certainly "intimidation" but the reference is behind a paywall. 98.4.112.204 (talk) 12:50, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

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