Talk:Condor Legion

Untitled
Why is this article with the Spanish diacritics ? The Condor Legion was a German unit, shouldn't the German spelling be used ? Rama 14:29, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Were the Condor Legion volunteers or were they sent? It seems as if they were sent, the article implies that there was a continuation of German military structures... is there any eveidence of someone who refused to be sent? Duncan 20:38, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighter, Heinkel He 111 medium bomber, and from December 1937, the Junkers Ju 87 Stuka dive-bomber, first saw active service in the Condor Legion fighting against Soviet supplied aircraft.[4] Each of these aircraft, although verging on obsolete by the mid-1940s, played a major role during the early years of the Second World War.

This section makes no sense. Any aircraft in service at the time of the Spanish Civil War would be obsolete by the mid 1940s. If the author meant to say early 1940s then the statement is factually incorrect in regard to the Bf 109 and the He 111. Indeed the Bf 109 was arguably the best fighter in the world in the early 1940s, with only the Supermarine Spitfire being a serious contender for the title. Lexington50 04:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Added further detail
Added more detail clearing up some misleading points in the article and rearranged it. More could be added; involvement of Kriegsmarine, objections from German High Command, deployment of Canaris/Abwehr, SIGINT stations setup, construction of facilities in Spain, continuing presence of Germans in Spain, markings/decals, a history of actions, the history of German Spanish interactions leading up to the aid, joint operations with Regia Aeronautica, CTV, Franco forces etc etc. Just no time to do it.

The wisdom of including all the above and the wisdom of referring to non airforce personnel who entered the theater as Legion Kondor is somewhere I did not go. The article Spanish Civil War and Foreign Involvement should give a synopsis of it all so some of the bases I touched on here truly belong in that parent article or an article that goes into some depth on Axis involvement and the total lack of Soviet/French/British military aid.


 * Lexington50, I removed the sentence. Only reason I correct wikipedia articles is because they receive a high google rank not to battle wits on talkpages.
 * Newsheep, they were volunteers, and rank did not carry to their new postings. This is not stressed in the article but in effect they had to resign from German service to fight. See Trautloft for details. Obviously the removal of rank probably did not apply to those serving aboard Deutschland and other capital ships but as noted, no time to go into the semantic gymnastics to describe the entire thing. Fluffy999 16:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Described some of Operation Ursula and mentioned sottomarini legionari.Fluffy999 14:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Memorial Removal
I do not know if this is relevant, but I think you may want to add it. The Condor Legian memorial that was in La Almudena graveyard, Madrid, featured in the article, has been removed by the German goverment. The problem being, I cannot find an english source.

http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2012/07/01/madrid/1341169585_005137.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.143.50.94 (talk) 22:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikiproject
Dont know how to add it to the other project categories but it might just be a case of adding the tags to this page. Fluffy999 14:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Start Class yey! Let that be a lesson- put in your request for review then make your additions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fluffy999 (talk • contribs) 15:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

Page move to Condor Legion
It is my understanding that the subject of this article is normally referred to as the Condor Legion in English (eg. in Mason's The Rise of the Luftwaffe). That being the case, in line with Naming conventions (use English), this page should be moved to Condor Legion with the German included in the first sentence of the article. What do others think? Greenshed 08:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, I've just had a look at the German Wikipedia page (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_Condor) and it is titled Legion Condor, not Legion Kondor. This calls into question whether Kondor is the correct German spelling in this context. Can anyone provide a citation? Greenshed 08:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Page moved. Greenshed 19:29, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

"Kondor" is the modern spelling. The correct spelling in this context is "Condor". There are other examples, eg "Context" was changed to "Kontext" in modern German. (84.154.210.193 18:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC))

Hitler:

'You know my opinion of Franco... We ought to keep these Red Spaniards on the back burner... They're lost to democracy, and to that reactionary crew round Franco too... I believe you to the letter, Speer, that they were impressive people. I must say, in general, that during the civil war the idealism was not on Franco's side; it was to be found among the Reds...one of these days we'll be able to make use of them...The whole thing will start all over again. But with us on the opposite side.'

Quoted in Albert Speer's diary entry for 26 December, 1950 recalling a conversation with Hitler in January 1943 (Albert Speer, Spandau: The Secret Diary (Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 2000), p. 167.)

'I am quite sure that very few of the so-called Reds in Spain were really Communists. We were badly deceived, for, had I known the real state of affairs, I would never have allowed our aircraft to bombard and destroy a starving population and at the same time re-establish the Spanish clergy in all their horrible privileges.' (Hitler's Political Testament, 10th February 1945) --24.107.177.15 04:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Additional participants of note
Is it worth mentioning that Hauptmann Erhart Krafft von Dellmensingen, son of Konrad Krafft von Dellmensingen was the leader of one of the waves (third I think)? Purple Aubergine (talk) 22:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

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Unsourced material
Preserving here by providing this link. The content removed was unsourced original research. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:13, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

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Terror bombing
Here are some sources that say the Condor Legion made terror bombing attacks. Binksternet (talk) 09:29, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Bob Carruthers (2013). Panzers I & II: Germany's Light Tanks, Pen and Sword Books, page 40, ISBN 9781473845237. "The Condor Legion developed methods of terror bombing which were used widely in the Second World War shortly afterwards. The Bombing of Guernica was the most infamous operation..."
 * Carsten Humlebæk (2014). Spain: Inventing the Nation, Bloomsbury Publishing, page 80, ISBN 9781441102522. "Even if the attack on Guernica is the Condor Legion's most well-known effort during the war and is famous for being history's first terror attack on a civilian population, the Legion had in fact already attacked Madrid and other towns in Andalusia and the Basque Country in similar ways before Guernica.... there is thus little doubt that a full-scale terror attack was attempted."
 * Klaus A. Maier (2003). "The Condor Legion: An Instrument of Total War?" in Roger Chickering, Stig Forster's The Shadows of Total War: Europe, East Asia, and the United States, 1919-1939, Cambridge University Press, page 287, ISBN 9780521812368. "Guernica... Many observers regard this attack as a masterpiece of terror bombing."
 * Ward Thomas (2014). The Ethics of Destruction: Norms and Force in International Relations, Cornell University Press, page 143, ISBN 9780801471681. "While the Luftwaffe was oriented more toward close infantry support than strategic bombing, the merits of terror bombing had been debated within the organization throughout the 1930s, with very few references to moral considerations. Moreover, the German Condor Legion had carried out notoriously brutal bombing raids in the Spanish Civil War. As one historian comments, while terror bombing was not a prominent aspect of Luftwaffe doctrine, 'there is no reason to believe that the decision stems from a willingness to uphold international law.'"
 * Jerrold M. Packard (1992). Neither friend nor foe: the European neutrals in World War II, Simon & Schuster, page 56, ISBN 9780684192482. "In a world still capable of experiencing deep shock at wanton savagery, the Condor Legion's terror bombing (with the help of the Italian Air Force) of Guernica captured international attention in June 1937 as did no other single incident in the war."
 * Gabrielle Ashford Hodges (2002). Franco: A Concise Biography, Macmillan, page 113, ISBN 9780312282851. "On the Madrid front, however, even the German Condor Legion — a force of 4000 men and a hundred aircraft supported by anti-aircraft and anti-tank units, under the command of Major-General von Sperrle and Colonel von Richthofen — failed to save the situation. Despite the systematic onslaught of these special units which were keen to experiment with terror bombing..."
 * Sandra Ott (2011). War, Exile, Justice, and Everyday Life, 1936-1946, Center for Basque Studies Press, University of Nevada, page 33, ISBN 9781935709091. "Guernica... The devastating results of Germany's terror bombing strategy, developed in 1937... A special unit of the Luftwaffe in the service of the National Movement, Hitler's Condor Legion, as well as Italian aircraft, carried out the attack."
 * Antony L. Kay (2004). Junkers Aircraft and Engines, 1913-1945, Putnam Aeronautical Books, page 115, ISBN 9780851779850. "One example of this testing of new weaponry was the incendiary-bombing of Guernica by the Condor Legion on 26 April 1937. This bombing has gone into history as an appalling act of terrorism but is still surrounded by controversy. Guernica was completely destroyed, and 1,500 people were killed and 800 wounded, but the strategic parts, the arms plant and the railway, were undamaged. Some argue that Guernica was simply an act of terror bombing..."
 * Please filter this list to those focussing on the spanish civil war, not those about tanks and aircraft. Then please look into these books whether these claims are based on verifyable facts or just repetion of words they heard somewhere or made them up themselves. It's really hard to made a fact-based claim on what happened in spain due to massive propaganda efforts on both sides (and supporting nations) either downplaying or exaggerating the actions and losses.--Denniss (talk) 12:49, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
 * At the very least, we should tell the reader that the Condor Legion was accused of terror bombing. That's undeniably true. Binksternet (talk) 16:39, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
 * True indeed. --Denniss (talk) 14:17, 13 March 2018 (UTC)