Talk:Congestion pricing/Archive 1

Improving the concept of congestion pricing
Congestion pricing is an economic concept, not specific as the article is now. It applies to several economic activities, and essentially is a way to manage peak demand by raising prices. I will edit on this direction, and then, specific articles such as road or traffic congestion pricing, airport congestion pricing, internet pricing, etc. could be added. Mariordo (talk) 15:57, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

If anyone is interested in writing a short section after the intro, regarding a little more detailed description of the economic theory behind congestion pricing, please do so. Other users are welcome to collaborate on congestion pricing in specific public utilities and in transportation, mainly for airport congestion pricing. Mariordo (talk) 17:33, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merged into Time-based pricing
Dear DeFacto. Sorry but I do not think this is a good idea, only the title names of the articles seem similar. Congestion pricing refers to public goods (utilities and public services) and their externalities (congestion in this particular case), while time-base pricing refers to private goods and services under free competition, essencially, how private firms do their pricing. Follow the references, particularly K. Button, and in particular all the existing literature on this subject in the transportation economics literature and papers. There are plenty of references in the congestion pricing article. Other readings to clarify the issue: welfare economics, congestion pricing is looking for maximizing social welfare, time-based pricing is about maximizing profits; Commons dilemma applies only to public goods and is one of the justifications for congestion pricing, it has nothing to do with time-base pricing; see also Pigovian tax, Externalities and follow the "see also" links. I request speedy deletion of the Merge banner. Thanks. Mariordo (talk) 01:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * See reply at Talk:Time-based pricing. -- de Facto (talk). 16:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep - While the original Smeed Report into road pricing considered variable rates all actual transportation-related congestion pricing schemes to date have not been time-weighted (with the exception of Singapore). (copy of note at Time based pricing) Ephebi (talk) 09:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Merge . The lead to time-based pricing states "The rational background of time-based pricing is expected or observed change of the supply and demand balance during time." That description applies exactly to congestion pricing too.  For example, the London congestion charge, implemented to cut day-time congestion, a charge is made to enter the zone when the demand needs to be cut, during the working day, and no charge is made at other times.  It attempts a "change of the supply and demand balance during time".  Congestion pricing is an application of time-based pricing, with the emphasis on reducing demand at peak times - like with electricity, rail fares, etc.  -- de Facto (talk). 10:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. OK, I've changed my mind.  The time-based pricing article confuses the two concepts, and includes some stuff on congestion pricing which shouldn't be there - it needs cleaning up.  I'll remove the tags.  -- de Facto (talk). 23:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. See my explanations above and below. Also my two suggestions below. The proposed merge is like mixing water with gasoline. Congestion pricing is related to public goods and it aims at provoking a re-distribution of peak-demand, in order to gain more efficiency in the use of that public good. Congestion pricing is trying to avoid the Tragedy of the Commons, in economic terms. The time-base pricing article has nothing to do with these concepts Mariordo (talk) 17:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Fixing/Undoing some of the latest edits for the correct terms
I will try to explain each change in the Edit summary, but in general, some of the wording introduced lately is technically incorrect or incomplete, then providing the wrong information in the article. For example Congestion pricing is exactly the same as Congestion charges, the former is the American term, the latter is the British one. See for example London congestion charge and New York congestion pricing, the concept is exactly the same in both cities, and by the way, sometimes is also a tax, see Stockholm congestion tax.

If still in doubt about this concept, then read the article on Singapore's Area Licensing Scheme the first ever implemented in the world, and as a previous edit said, it is indeed the first successfull implementation in the world, because it was. This is still a textbook case in economics and engineering transportation worldwide - for example, Hong Kong tried a pilot and it couln't implement because of public opposition. The Singapur's article explains clearly why this is not a regular toll and how is part of of a TDM scheme. Other wrong edit: Road pricing refers to ALL charges, such us gas tax, tolls, etc. and congestion charges are just part of those charges. Just read the article.

I will do as much edits as possible today, and some other later, but please, for those collaborating on this article, when in doubt ask here first. Reading beforehand the other wiki articles referenced in the text will help to avoid unnecessary editings and unnecessary questions. Congestion pricing is a solid concept within Economics and some technical jargon is required. Suggestions for using layman terms is welcome, but some simply don't have such a term, i.e., externalities. Mariordo (talk) 02:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Question of POV
I am a little concerned by the way that this article is developing. It is portraying congestion pricing as only an altruistic concept, purely used for the "public good", and talking about it in flattering theoretical and parochial terms. That is just one, extreme, point of view of what it is.

In reality, congestion pricing may not be the best way of reducing congestion, there may be other more effective ways to reduce demand, but it may be a comfortable way for politicians to raise revenue - congestion/pollution being a convenient, and politically correct excuse to impose a charge. It may also be used as an excuse for doing nothing to increase the supply of the congested resource.

Congestion is described as a negative externality. That is also only one point of view. For those who rely on congestion as one of the main justifiers for a political project, or for those who derive a competitive advantage from it (bicycle suppliers, public transport operators, etc.) it is very definitely a positive externality.

The notion that users "cause" the externality (congestion) is also just one way of looking at it. Congestion occurs when demand for a shared resource exceeds supply. So an insufficient supply, or a deliberate limiting of supply, is also a cause.

Another negative is that it allows the wealthy to buy access to, what should be a public amenity, whilst denying fair access to the less-wealthy. The phrase "maximizing the net benefit for society" is extreme POV for the preceding reasons.

Different political administrations and theorists have dreamt-up their own terminology, jargon, and theories to shroud the concept in respectability and mystery - but we should not accept these "orthodox" views as the only views - we need also to reflect other significant views and opinions. -- de Facto (talk). 11:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * First the POV issue. By Wikipedia policies the article shall not reflect our opinions. Whether we like it or not, agree or not, the information provided so far is mainstream in transport economics (under free market conditions). The same rational has been used to justify pollution charges, the other practical implementation of paying for externalities. The cases are just examples of real life implementation of these theories. So it is portraying congestion pricing/charges as it is, this is NOT my opinion. But you are right this is NOT a perfect solution, so the next addition I was planning to do was regarding the controversy among economists of what shall be done with the revenues (go to the government general budget, go to finance transport infrastructure or give back to the public, usually for public transportation?). This is well documented in the literature, so it is neither my opinion nor original research.
 * The other key aspect, without a doubt, is the reaction of the users who actually have to pay. This issue is already briefly mentioned in the cordon area section. This is very polemical (New York and Hong Kong couldn't implement the scheme because of public opposition), but to avoid NPOV problems, I rather leave to each of the specific articles (Singapore, London, Stockholm, and New York), the recount of the public reaction on each of these cities, this info is already there. Finally, I agree with you with about unfairness, for example HOT lanes went to far, this is really a privilege for the rich. Later on I will search to see if there are enough reliable neutral sources to expand about this issue on this article. I will be out of the air for a week, when I come back from my vacation I will try to prioritize working on this article. Just in case, the TDM article also needs lots of work. Since yor are interested in transport, take a peek at the article on Intelligent transportation systems, really needs to be Wikified. Mariordo (talk) 12:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * My issue with POV is not that it reflects your POV, or that it doesn't reflect my POV, but that it only reflects the POV of a few theorists and vested interest bodies. The term congestion pricing has different meanings, and different definitions, for different groups.  We seem only to be giving it one, currently, the one you describe as "mainstream in transport economics".  They don't own the term - that is just their definition of it.  -- de Facto (talk). 13:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is the POV of Economy as a discipline, it is not just a few theorists. People already won Nobel Prizes over these concepts. Read and look for in Google about the Commons dilemma and Tragedy of the commons, it helps understand why this concept has been mainstream in economics and why these kind of restrictions or economic penalties are necessary, like some "sin taxes".


 * Based on the info provided and the discussion, do you now agree that this article should not be merged with "Time-based pricing"? If so, would you be so kind to remove the "merge"banner. Thanks.Mariordo (talk) 14:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * In reply to your first point, that is exactly what I mean. It reflects only one (their) POV, it does not reflect dissenting views from with the economy discipline, nor does it reflect views from outside of it.  Perhaps the article name should be changed to "Congestion pricing (economics theory)".


 * In reply to your second point. I am not yet convinced that it is not a sub-set of Time-based pricing.  I was hoping there might be views from other editors.  Let's leave it there for a few more days.


 * -- de Facto (talk). 14:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, let's wait for someone else to give an opinion. When I come back to the article, I can include in the leading paragraph a couple of lines to make clear this is economics theory.Mariordo (talk) 14:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Please let me know what do you think about the expanded and "improved" definition, I tried to avoid technical jargon as much as possible. Also, look at the hidden text in the description (section 1) regarding how these congestion charges should be calculated, but the jargon is too technical. I will try to put it in more layman terms after my vacation and need to look for the references. Also notice that this text raises the issues on which there is no consensus among economists, how to calculate optimal charge in practice, and what to do with the revenues, keep in the government budget or to redistribute to the users (additional infrastructure or improvements to public transportation).Mariordo (talk) 05:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Balance
Mariordo makes a convincing argument that congestion pricing is related to the supply of public goods, rather than the supply of other types of goods. That's fine.

The contentious issues remaining, and those which we need to have a balanced presentation of are:


 * What is the definition of a public good? Many services can be funded entirely from tax revenues, and offered "free" at the point of use in one place, whilst in another place, although the service is largely funded from taxes, a fee may be charged for its use.  The same service may be provided entirely free by a charitable organisation with funds raised from voluntary donations.  Whilst elsewhere the same service may only be available on a commercial basis, with a market price charged to the consumer.


 * Is congestion always a negative externality? It depends on whose view you take.  For a pedestrian, it is easier, and safer, to cross a street of near stationary vehicles, than it is to cross fast flowing traffic.  For a cash-strapped government authority, road congestion may offer a lucrative revenue opportunity.


 * What is responsible for congestion? The lack of supply, or excessive demand.  On roads, severe congestion can be created, and eliminated, by simple traffic management changes.  In the UK, public good state-provided hospitals are held responsible for congestion in their services, and penalised.


 * Who suffers the cost of congestion? A large part of the cost of road traffic congestion is borne by the delayed road user.


 * What are the objectives of congestion pricing - to suppress demand, to charge for the cost of the "negative externalities", or to raise revenue. Congestion in the demand for the public good social housing isn't generally solved by charging the user, but by increasing supply, and by prioritising allocation.

We don't want the article to leave the reader with only these views:
 * That congestion is always bad.
 * That congestion is only caused by unreasonable excess demand and not by an unreasonable supply shortfall.
 * That the delayed user doesn't already shoulder a large part of the cost of the congestion.
 * That the best way to solve congestion is to charge, not compensate, the user.
 * That the only solution is to suppress demand, not to increase supply.
 * ANSWER: I think most of the questions you asked are answered below, in the proposal of a new section, and several of them are valid and have been discussed by transport economists. But following Wiki policy, original research (see WP:OR) is not allowed, even when you are right. I just want to address this specific question. Within an urban network of streets, providing more lanes or overpasses will consume urban land, so usually increasing supply (upgrading or more lanes) is not an option. Furthermore, as capacity is increased, more autos will enter the city center, so more parking space is required. You have to have a balance between land dedicated for transportation and land use for parks, office buildings, housing and all other urban land uses. In practical terms this lesson was learned the hard way in the city of Los Angeles, during the late 50's and the 60's, until they realized that building more freeways and tunnels was futile, more cars were entering the city, more people move to the suburbs, city sprawl worsen, and bottlenecks keep moving from one place to another; if they were to keep building more roads there was not going to be any city left. Both, transport economic theory and empirical evidence show that more infrastructure attracks more demand. So in may cases increasing road supply in the city core is simple not feasible, not even with huge investments in infrastructure. Also, just imagine Paris or London, which historical building the citizen are willing to sacrifice in order to expand the city streets? So there is no supply shortfall or lack of willingness by public authoroties. Road capacity within downtown areas is finite, that is the reason the strategies and policies are aimed to curb demand. Mariordo (talk) 03:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There may be reasonable excuses for not building more roads at, or above street level in historical or dense urban situations. That doesn't imply that supply cannot be increased by other strategies in those locations, or by those strategies in other locations.  It certainly doesn't imply that the only solution to congestion is to suppress demand.  In the same way that poor traffic management can cause congestion, good traffic management can relieve it.  You only need to look at London, as you mention above.  Since the introduction of congestion pricing, traffic levels have dropped, and initially congestion dropped too, but more recently congestion has increased again with no corresponding increase in traffic levels.  The reasons for the congestion increase are traffic management changes.  WP:OR states that if you insist in asserting that demand suppression is the only solution, then you need to attribute precisely whose opinion that is, and WP:NPOV states that you need to balance that opinion with other significant (not necessarily expert) opinions. -- de Facto (talk). 09:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (1) I think the oppening statement you included at the beginning of the section "Description" is great, it makes clear that congestion pricing is just one of several strategies, helping to keep the NPOV of the article and it is properly referenced, to me, that edit of yours settles that issue. Since you insist in making minor changes without the sources, most of your edits are WP:OR, and you just keep asking me for the sources of concepts already referenced just because you do not seem to like the principle or policy (and by the way, an article should not be full of citations from a book, particularly just because you do not bother to check the sources - anyway I will provide for you in the Talk page the transcription you requested, but please be reasonable, I can not keep providing book transcriptions at your request nor endlessly explaining to you transport economics. Amazon has these books for sale). Thus, I will continue editing those WP:OR edits and asking you for proper sources/references, though I rather prefer to spend my time more constructively improving this and other articles I am working on, in collaboration with you and other editors interested in the subject. (2) You have raised several interesting issues regarding the practical implementation of congestion pricing that clearly will improve the articles's NPOV. Since right now I do not have enough time to work on the "Controversy" section, please go ahead and work on it, based on the info I provided below and other legitimate sources you might find in the web. Did you read the outline I proposed below? it covers most of the issues you have already raised, but as WP:OR. Tonight I will try to edit/write, based on the outline and references below, a short sentence at the end of the leading paragraph of the article, summarizing the issues and controversies associated to this policy when it goes from theory to practice, or you can give a try. Mariordo (talk) 13:19, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * We are making progress. Verifiability, specifically Verifiability requires the use on inline citations for "any material challenged or likely to be challenged".  These tie specific statements to specific sources to make their verifiability easier.  Additionally it is not unreasonable to ask for a direct quote to be provided from a cited source, especially for sources that are not available online (see Template:Request quotation). -- de Facto (talk). 14:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Verifiability has its limits, but let's clarify your doubts. First, to provide a clear answer, some economic concepts and the famous ceteris paribus assumptions, and sorry, that's how economics works:


 * (i) From Button (1993) pp. 122: "The principles of pricing: Pricing is a method of resource allocation; there is no such thing as the 'right' price but rather there are optimal pricing strategies which permit specified goals to be obtained. The optimal price, for example, to achieve profic maximisation may differ from that needed to maximise welfare or ensure the highest sales revenue". Comment: I did not realize that the wiki link for the word pricing is directed to the wrong definition. Since the definition used in microeconomics is not available in Wiki, I am directing toward Free price system, since simple pricing directs towards a business definition, not one from economics.
 * (ii) In economics the word efficiency has a different meaning than in day to day uses. It is called Economic efficiency, and in the case of congestion pricing refers to a system where "No one can be made better off without making someone else worse off" (just follow the wiki link). When we talk about optimal pricing is the same as efficiency pricing. See the article Pareto efficiency or Pareto optimality. "An allocation is Pareto efficient or Pareto optimal when no further Pareto improvements can be made". I will redirect the word "efficiency" to that article so no one gets confused, and also make the link in the See also section. Alternatively can be edit as "... is an efficiency or optimal pricing strategy.." always with the link to Pareto optimality.
 * (iii) Marginal cost pricing (wiki Marginal cost). From Button (1993) pp. 126: "Welfare economics takes a rather wider view of pricing, looking upon price as a method of resource allocation which maximises social welfare rather than simply the welfare of the supplier. In some cases, since the good or servie is actually provided by a public agency, this may be equated with maximising the supplier's welfare..." later on the same page: "In other words, social welfare is maximised when price is equated to marginal cost. ...This policy is a fairly well established one in economic theory and, indeed, formed the basis for UK public enterprise pricing from 1967."

And now the two quotations you requested (which for style, I think we should not fill the article with lots of quotations, since these are well-established economic principles and proper reference was given) and it reflecting the concept I did the original edit trying to avoid as much economic jargon as possible, but the wiki links included provide a follow up for those interested:


 * (1) The article says: A stated aim of this pricing strategy is to make users more fully aware of the costs they impose upon one another when consuming during the peak demand, and to pay for the additional congestion they create, thus allowing the redistribution of the excess demand in space or in time, 


 * Comment: this concept is always explaind with a graph showing road demand and the curves for average cost and marginal cost, that explaind the little math in the quotation. At the end of the article, I was planning to include a more theorical section after the Description for the readers with a basic knowledge in economics. Anyway, I translated "deterred" for "redistibution of the excess demand in space or in time", because as common sense and practical implementation demonstrated in Singapore (see the wiki article) some users travel at different times, other took alternative routes or just swicht to mass transit. To avoid any doubts on WP:OR, I will add another reference from Small et al (2007), the quotation is the following, "this section provides the basic economic motivation for congestion pricing":

''"This implies that short-run marginal cost exceeds short-run average variable cost. Intuitively, this is because short-run marginal social cost mc includes not only the cost incurred by the traveler herself but also the additional cost she imposes on all other travelers by adding to the congestion they encounter. This additional cost is known as the marginal external congestion cost, here denoted mecc. An efficient level of road use is obtained when each trip that is made provides benefits as least as great as its social cost, mc, and when no trip meeting this condition is suppressed. To obtain this situation through pricing, each traveler should face the marginal social cost of her trip. This requires a charge equal to the difference between the marginal cost and the cost already borne by the traveler, which is short-run average variable cost, c. This charge, known as the optimal congestion fee or congestion toll, is therefore T = mc - c = mecc. These arguments can be formalized by determining a Pareto-optimal distribution of traffic, defined as one that maximizes any one person's utility while holding all others' utilities constant and meetting aggregate resource and technological constraints. Equivalently, we find the allocation of road space to users that maximizes net welfare, defined as the difference between aggregate consumer benefit and total cost...."'' Small and Verhoef (2007) page 120, section 4.1


 * (2) The article says: Congestion pricing is an efficiency pricing strategy that requires the users to pay more for that public good, thus increasing the net benefit for society.


 * I think the two quotations above cleary support this statement (when talking about welfare gain, actually the area under the graph I mentioned is the net benefit for society or welfare gain). I will repeat the same references and delete the request for a quotation. Mariordo (talk) 04:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all that. I think the phrasing of those is now compatible with the references. -- de Facto (talk). 10:11, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That suppressing demand by price doesn't favour the wealthy at the expense of less-wealthy.
 * That competitive advantage can best be achieved by handicapping the competition, rather than by making alternative offerings more attractive.
 * That the main driver for the introduction of congestion pricings is objective, rather than that it is usually subjective, and political.

-- de Facto (talk). 11:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * FURTHER WORK ON THE ARTICLE (1) As I mentioned before, in the following weeks I will be working on a section regarding controversy about congestion pricing (mainly focus to road pricing). There is controversy between scholars as to how the money raised by the urban tolls should be spent; a list of problems regarding public opposition; alternative strategies; etc. To keep POV proper references from transportationspecialists will be presented. There is also controversy among urban planners, already mentioned in the article, that can be expanded, and I will pick some of the controversy in the public arena (through the serious press) in New York, London, etc. But to develop this section it will take time. (2) As to electric power, the move from time-based pricing to here it is more complicated that I though. First, time-based pricing article is so badly constructed that just cutting the electric power part will make it worse than it is now. I think some cross-references between the two articles, and the ones I will mention next. Second, in energy utilities they use the same concepts as in transport pricing, but with different names. See for example the articles Demand response, which is congestion pricing in electricity grids, or Energy demand management, which is equivalent to Transportation Demand Management). My opinion is that because this subject is so developed in electricity utilities, the congestion pricing article shall just make a quick mention, and redirect to the more specific articles. de Facto and anyone else interested, I would like to hear some opinions before developing the article in this direction.Mariordo (talk) 02:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Mariordo raised concerns on my talk page regarding my recent edits. My edits (there were five) were an attempt to begin to address the serious POV and balance issues that I had raised previously (see above), and which had not been answered. Specifically:
 * In this one I inserted a sentence to remind us of the details of the "externality" in question (congestion), and edited an unsourced definition of congestion pricing which relied on a specific point of view (POV) asserting that the "externality" is caused by the "users", that the user payments are for the public good, and that the result would be to maximise the "benefit for society", to reflect the more balanced POV that congestion pricing is a measure which targets one of the causes, over demand, rather than the other cause, lack of supply.
 * In this one I inserted, into an unsourced sentence, the qualifier "rather than the suppliers" to clarify that as a valid alternative option, and replaced the unsourced POV statement "perceived by the users as supplied for free" with the more neutral and more accurate one - "tax-funded".
 * In this one I replaced "The aim [of congestion pricing]" with "One of the aims...", as there are clearly other aims in addition to those mentioned, I pointed out again that the measure doesn't tackle supply short fall, that over demand is not the only cause of congestion - so the cost isn't only caused by the user, that "auto travel" isn't the only target, removed the unsourced POV phrase "better manage", and rephrased an unsourced sentence.
 * In this one I clarified what the Smeed report contained, and corrected the unsourced sentence which suggested that the Smeed proposals were "nearly implemented".
 * In this one I put a context in front of an unexplained verbatim quote.

If you disagree with any of those edits, or the reasons, please edit as you see fit, with necessary references, and put a brief explanation in the 'Edit summary'. We should strive to co-operate in the creation of an article which reflects a truly neutral point of view. -- de Facto (talk). 16:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)~


 * You bet I will when I have time, but please, did you read the wiki articles about the economic concepts I suggested to you in the (Talk:Time-based pricing) for the discussion about merging this article with Time-based pricing? For example, your first edit, YOU are changing the economic definition of externalities, just wiki Externalities and check for yourself, also the references provided explain precisely that concept you are modifiying. Did you follow those references? You asked what is a public good, did you Wiki it? This economic theory is mainstream, there are guys who won Nobel Prizes for developing these concepts. If you disagree with the theory, that's a different issue, and a Wikipedia article IS NOT the place for you manifest your discontent or my opinion or yours, it is against Wiki policy. I have not had time to edit the section on critics or controversies about this economic theory. If you want to try, give me your e-mail (in my personal page) and I will provide you the materials for you to do it, properly referenced, from the bibliography indicated at the end of the article. Mariordo (talk) 19:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Outline for proposed new section on controversy about congestion pricing
Before editing/undoing some of the latest edits (due to original research and lack of sources), let me outline to (User Talk:DeFacto) or any other editor interested or willing to collaborate with the article, a proposal for a section about the controversial issues surrounding congestion pricing for urban roads. Anyone is welcome to work on this section, but the following ideas are almost a transcription from the sources (which explain in more detail each of the issues identified), so please, do not cut and paste on the article, please write it from scratch.

From pp 154-159:
 * (1) The difficulty of devising a practical method of collection. This is no longer an issue, now the technology for electronic toll collection allows barrier free charging to enter the city center.
 * (2) The possibility of undesirable distribution repercussions/Inequality issue. With congestion charges the use of the tolled road depends on the user's income capabilities to pay that urban toll, then it is likely to privilege the rich, and the less wealthy is the one switching to public transit.
 * (3) There are difficulties in disposing of the revenues raised. This is a hot issue among scholars. It can be used to improved public transport (like London) or to invest in new road infrastructure (like Oslo) or direct transfer payments to former road users. There are several papers discussing this issue. This policy is not intended just to increased public revenues or to become in another tax. Just Google it for more sources.
 * (4) The impact on freight costs may prove inflationary if the road price is passed down to final consumers.
 * (5) The demand functions for road use are more complex than simple analysis suggests. In practice the charge becomes a trial and error experiment.
 * (6) Congestion pricing is a first-best solution in a secon-best world. This has to do with marginal cost pricing of road space if all other goods in the economy are also marginal cost priced, which is not the case.
 * Kenneth also discusses about the political concerns because of public rejection of this policy, due mainly to the two issues in bold type above.

Now, from *, pp. 125-127 (also the existing cases for urban areas are discussed pp. 148-151)
 * (1) Based on the economic principles behind congestion pricing (the optimal charge should make up for the difference between the average cost and the marginal cost), the practical challange of setting optimal link-based tolls is daunting given that neither the demand functions nor the link-specific speed-flow curves can be known precisely.
 * (2) Heterogeneity of users. Should urban tolls be differentiated across users?
 * (3) Distributional impacts and acceptability of congestion pricing. Although imposition of the optimal toll generates a net welfare gain, the social and political acceptability of road pricing has proven to be very limited. According to theory, because of the price increase, some users are worse off unless they receive benefits from the use of toll revenues. The users who shift to some less-preferred alternative (such as public transportation or not traveling at all) are also worst off.  ...Ignoring revenue allocation, then, all the initial travelers lose from the policy...The only gain is to the public sector, in the form of toll revenues....the outcome depends on how revenues are used and on whether the authorities are able to effectively and credibly commit to these uses and communicate them to the public.

Other sources and issues (effect on the urban environment, on retail sales, etc.) can be brought from the specific articles of the cities that already have implemented congestion pricing. This is a start for a section dealing with the controversy of this policy, within Wiki policies, sourced and no original research. Mariordo (talk) 02:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * PD: the other posible section about congestion pricing in public transit and electric power supply (or public utilities in general) is a bit more complex, because in this case the supplier incurs in a direct variable cost to attend the peak-load demand, therefore, the congestion charge is covering part of that cost. In the practical aplications for roads, airports or the Panama Canal, the supplier DOES NOT incurs in any additional costs, other than the operating cost of the electronic tolling or any costs associated with charging the congestion fee. Therefore, this posible new section has a slightly different theoretical basis that has to be explained. Mariordo (talk) 02:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Congestion_pricing
Hi there, the information in this section is slightly outdated, there has been quite a bit of movement of late including the possibility that a vote may be held by all 10 Manchester councils. Parrot of Doom (talk) 16:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the tip. I been doing the follow up based on the Manchester congestion charge article. I will google for updated info, but if you can provide more leads it will be very helpful. Mariordo (talk) 17:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Tax? Soapboxing again?
As already discussed in the Talk:Ecopass, and here and elsewhere in that page, you continue pushing your OR that congestion pricing is a tax. Your claim is not supported by the transportation economics literature, the congestion pricing article has several academic sources you can consult. This means your claim that this fee is a tax is not mainstream. That issue has been raised during the controversies regarding the implementation of congestion pricing in real life, and it is already mentioned in the article in the section "Public controversy", as some citizens in several of the controversies have claimed it is a tax. Considering this is a Good Article, please work the subject in this section, or even deepen it in a subsection, providing several reliable sources, as the subject is a minority view, an opinion, it has a place in the article, but please work it in the right place. Editorials and blogs are not good sources to support this issue, as Wiki do not accept them as reliable sources. Also see WP:Soapbox--Mariordo (talk) 11:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear Mariordo,
 * May I respectfully refer you to the WP:COOL essay.
 * Attempting to achieve a balanced article should not be characterised as soapboxing, and I resent that implication. Please concentrate on your argument and avoid any ad hominem.
 * You appear to be contradicting what you have said in discussions above: "For example Congestion pricing is exactly the same as Congestion charges, the former is the American term, the latter is the British one. See for example London congestion charge and New York congestion pricing, the concept is exactly the same in both cities, and by the way, sometimes is also a tax, see Stockholm congestion tax." (my bold).
 * And this is the crucial point, my edit did not assert that congestion pricing is a tax. My edit, in the appropriate "Urban roads" section, stated that practical (real-world) implementations of road congestion charges are widely referred to as congestion taxes.  They are, and as you said above, one of them even has the word in its name!
 * Are you sure that transport economics literature never mentions the "tax" word? Even in discussions about real-world interpretations of the "congestion pricing" theory as pragmatically applied to traffic charges?  How do they refer to the Stockholm Congestion Tax?
 * Mainstream media use the term - it is mainstream.
 * Critics of such schemes may also refer to it as a tax, but then critics are not likely to use the green washed or politically spun terms that the advocates of it, and those who stand to benefit from the revenues from it coin.
 * The fact that "congestion pricing", when applied as a traffic charge, is widely referred to as a congestion tax isn't solely in connection with controversy, so there is no need to bury that fact in the controversy section.
 * Editorials (and even blogs) can be from reliable sources - see Reliable sources and Reliable sources. However, the references that I supplied showed this term used in factual accounts in mainstream media RS references.
 * -- de Facto (talk). 13:20, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * PD: a tax is enacted by law with certain legal characteristics, and with the exception of the Stockholm congestion tax no other congestion user fee has the legal nature of a tax. In the controversies some people call it "...just another tax," but this claim does not make it a tax, even if mention a hundred times. That is why in the literature is recognized those fees are perceived by some as a tax. There is enough material in the books supporting the article, and the provided sources in the concerns & controversy section to work an entire subsection about this complaint. So I do suggest you might look at these sources and/or research a bit, and develop such sub-section, with the style and quality according to the article's Good Article status. Just inserting this claim in the wrong place is soapboxing--Mariordo (talk) 11:41, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Starting in the first English group in the "Newspaper of record" article, here are some examples in which the term "Congestion Tax" appears in "normal" English usage...
 * The Australian:
 * The Australian Financial Review:
 * The Sydney Morning Herald:
 * The Age:
 * -- de Facto (talk). 15:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * DF, Mariordo has shown patience above & beyond the call of duty and been the epitome of cool over many months in dealing with your incessant attempts, over dozens of articles, to push a clearly minority POV that any usage charge on congestion, emissions, or other motoring expense is a tax. He has even embraced the inclusion of this minority view in articles, albeit in the context of controversy or a minority perspective. For each of your popular press articles cited we could pull out many, many more that refer to them as charges, levies, etc. I noted that many of your Ozzie reference articles also used other terms than tax. In technical literature you won't find such terminology. For your future guidance, I again ask you to take a look at a definition of tax such as: Chambers, or OED. Note they use the term "compulsory contribution". A pure Treasury fund-raising "tax" is compulsory, yet these traffic "charges" can be avoided by changing behaviour by changing fuels, routes, vehicle class, or mode. Ephebi (talk) 22:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ephebi, presumably you can support that attack with evidence? That will of necessity include the list of over a dozen articles in which Mariordo has had to deal with what you call my "incessant attempt" to "push" "clearly minority POV".  You will, of course, also need to show which of my contributions to those articles were "clearly minority POV" of the type you describe. -- de Facto (talk). 22:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ephebi, my "popular press articles" were to demonstrate the validity of my contention that the term "congestion tax" is widely used when referring to congestion charges, and that that fact should be mentioned in the article. The other terms you mention are used in the article, so why not the one I suggest too?  This is a Wikipedia article, not a transport economics text book, so real-world congestion charge terminology needs to be mentioned.  A quick Google, for the various terms, on the websites of the Australian newspapers of record that I quote from above reveals the following number of results for each term:


 * We see that tax/taxes comes a very close second to charge/charges. Fee/fees and levy/levies fall way behind.
 * -- de Facto (talk). 23:41, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ephebi, you have just "proved" that income tax and purchase tax are not a taxes! Presumably you realise that it is not compulsory to have a taxable income? Presumably you realise that it is not compulsory to buy goods which attract purchase tax (VAT in the UK?)?  The printed Oxford Concise Dictionary gives vehicle tax (Vehicle Excise Duty in the UK?) as an example of a tax - but what do they know eh? -- de Facto (talk). 00:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear DF, Australia's media has been grappling with its first time-related usage charges at Sydney Harbour etc., and so a quick glance through the literature by necessity shows a lot of conjectural future speculation. Are they still right to refer to this as a "tax" now? Will they continue to do so when it becomes generally accepted? The official line differs but, still, "charge" has been the official term reported in popular press:.
 * (BTW, I tried similar searches and got different numbers from you.)
 * Nonetheless, Mariordo has not been trying to silence the usage of the tax term, instead we've been trying to ensure that is is represented correctly & fairly as a (non-technical) opinion, where this applies, rather than the term used in mainstream economic theory. WP is not a good place for a tit-for-tat argument, but can be a good forum for sharing expertise and common sense. Instead I politely suggest you remind yourself of the contents of your own talk pages from 9 April 2008 when this issue was (first?) raised with you. And I am sure that you are at least as competent as I at looking through your own edit history. Ephebi (talk) 17:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ephebi, whether "they" are right or wrong, they refer to it in that way - very widely - in line with my contention. Would you consider that an article about the UK's Community Charge was complete and NPOV if it didn't mention the use of the term Poll Tax?
 * For the searches try the obvious variations on this.
 * You were implying that the use of the term was invalid, even ignorant - have you changed your mind? Are you planning to defend your serious accusations above with the appropriate evidence as requested? -- de Facto (talk). 18:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd be obliged if you don't attribute things to me that I haven't said. Re-read my previous reply & WP:NOTOPINION and you have your answers. Thanks, 22:37, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * What did I attribute to you that you hadn't said? -- de Facto (talk). 23:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ephebi, you made the accusation, I'm asking you to provide the evidence. Please detail what you describe as my "...incessant attempts, over dozens of articles, to push a clearly minority POV...":
 * Which clearly minority POV?
 * List the dozens of articles.
 * -- de Facto (talk). 23:41, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * DeFacto, thanks to Wiki's history tracking of our edits, anyone interested can check what you did and what you did not. As Ephebi mentioned, and to set the record straight, your edits have indeed been more disruptive than constructive, and you have been tagging for edits that reflect the mainstream knowledge of economics, and lattely, pushing "tax" as synonymous of "charging", which is not NPOV because it the preferred term used by those advocanting against such pricing schemes, and that is the POV you have been pushing in several articles, and worst, almost never providing RS. Look what difference it makes when you provide sources, you made your case with the Australian congestion tax, because you took the time to provide RSs. I suggest we do not waste more time making personnal attacks, and move on to close the issue you raised. I will continue below providing the rationale for my proposal and an outiline for everybody to comment on it.--Mariordo (talk) 00:18, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I refute, and resent, your claim that my "edits have indeed been more disruptive than constructive". My edits are designed to improve the NPOV of articles, and to ensure verifiability.  If a statement makes a claim or an assertion which isn't immediately verifiable from a following inline reference, then it is perfectly acceptable, and indeed encouraged to place a  tag.  The onus is on the editor to show where the statement is derived from (see WP:BURDEN).  I've never "pushed", I may have been bold, but then that is encoraged too.  The fact that "tax" may also be the preferred term of those who argue against such schemes probably only reflects real-world and popular perception of what the schemes actually are.  I've not pushed POV I've encouraged NPOV. -- de Facto (talk). 11:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Shall we include "congestion tax" as a "popularly known as"?
Now that we have seen some of the evidence, what is the general feeling about including a phrase something like 'also popularly known as "congestion tax"'. At least in the section about road charges? -- de Facto (talk). 00:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems you are not inclined to work on a sub-section regarding the "tax" issue/controversy, so please re-read the article carefully (or use the FIND tool in your web browser) and take notice that despite being a minority view, not used in mainstream economics theory, but for the sake of NPOV as required by Wiki policies and to summarized past and ongoing debates, the article already says:
 * In the lead paragraphs: Critics maintain that congestion pricing is not equitable, places an economic burden on neighboring communities, has a negative effect on retail businesses and on economic activity in general, and is just another tax.


 * In the description section: Usually this means increasing prices during certain periods of time or at the places where congestion occurs; or introducing a new usage tax or charge when peak demand exceeds available supply in the case of a tax-funded public good provided free at the point of usage.


 * In the cordon and area wide sub-section of the urban roads section: Cordon area congestion pricing is a fee or tax paid by users to enter a restricted area, usually within a city center, as part of a demand management strategy to relieve traffic congestion within that area. (By the way, it would be to this section that your proposed edit would belong, the other sub-sections talk of other options where it is not the government that necessarily gets the revenues, such as in the case of the Californian HOT lanes, or the Chilean urban freeway, etc., there is a concessionary who BOT, and they are repaying the investment, clearly not a tax.)


 * The obvious case, every time the article is talking about Stockholm refers to the charge as a tax, since legally was issue as such, as I already explained above.


 * The "Academic debate and concerns" sub-section mentions "tax" twice, and within the proper use by academics and economic literature referring to a common argument given by those against congestion pricing.
 * The "Public controversy" sub-section mentions "tax" four times, explicitly showing the most common use by those opposing congestion pricing, and even repeating the same concept several times.


 * As a corollary, it is crystal clear that the article already reflects the use of "tax" as the word is used in the academic world in the context used by most, if not all, economists, by most of the English-language press, and also as it is used by those opposing congestion charges. Therefore, such a reference is not only unnecessary but also it is NOT truth that tax is a popularly known synonymous of congestion pricing or congestion charging as you are proposing, but rather the favorite word use by critics and some citizens against such traffic fees. Saying otherwise is OR and a violation of NPOV.--Mariordo (talk) 01:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Again, a lot of information, but mostly not addressing the essential point. I am not proposing, or even suggesting, that the term "congestion tax" is popular in economics or transport engineering technical publications or literature, although, apparently, it is used there in certain contexts.  Similarly, I am not talking about controversies surrounding these charges, or the prevalent terminology used in them.
 * What I am pointing out, and what is currently absent from the article, is that the term is popularly used in the popular media when referring to such charges. To deny that is futile, and to exclude its inclusion as such contravenes WP:NPOV. -- de Facto (talk). 09:45, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I did checked the links you provided and search some more, and I think you have made a valid point regarding the local use of the term "congestion tax" in Australia, but not on a "worldwide" or common use. Can you hold a bit, until I have time tonight to explain why and make a proposal to end this discussion. In the meantime look at the section "terminology" in the Flexible-fuel vehicle article. I wrote it and believe it is possible to edit something similar here regarding congestion pricing, congestion charges, pollution charges, road pricing, urban tolls, and congestion taxes. Please wait.--Mariordo (talk) 17:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Officially it seems that the Ozzie charge is not treated as a tax but was legally constructed as a charge . Being a variable charge it is getting more like the original mechanism proposed by Smeed. However, in the run-up before announcing the system used for Sydney Harbour the popular press and many politicians have seemingly freely used the term tax. Whether "tax" remains, or gets superceded by "charge" in common parlance in future is open to speculation. Ephebi (talk) 17:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Whether they are "legally" constructed as taxes, or not, only influences the "official" term for them, they will still remain whatever they literally are. Similarly once a term becomes common, it will stick, even if the thing that it refers to is "officially" renamed.  Spun terms too, such as "Ecopass", cannot remove the underlying definition. -- de Facto (talk). 19:36, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Mariordo, Well-done for reconsidering your stance, and reviewing the publications. I suspect that you may arrive at a similar conclusion to me - the term is very widely used. There is no rush and no pressure for a quick-fix now that we now appear to be moving towards a more consensual outcome again. -- de Facto (talk). 18:18, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Proposal and outline for discussion

 * 1. Common use of the term and "popularly known" . A Google search, though with all the caveats (including changing significantly the number of hits with minor adjustments) at least works as a reference to have ball park figures. Using a closed search with " " and the maximum number of hits obtained, the result shows that congestion pricing and congestion charging add up to 1,32 million hits, while "congestion tax" shows 40,800 hits. This means that even including blogs, editorials and sites from advocating groups, pro and against, congestion tax is appears 3% of the time. If I now use for the calculation the minimum number of hits observed, this becomes 558,000 against 38,700, or 6.4% of the time. Therefore, we can conclude that "congestion tax" is not such "popularly known" term and definitely as used as the other two, regardless of the context, let Australia and Sweden apart, meaning its use its local not worldwide. This proxy shows that the article is consistent with the common use and the academic jargon. Just out of curiosity, the search adding the word Australia within " " operator is very low, so I did it again leaving the country or place out of the " ", resulting in 11,000 hits for Australia, and 7,150 hits for Stockholm is (Sweden is 6,600), so adding up both they represent almost half of all hits for "congestion tax". See the details below including the min and max number of hits I got at different times of the day (I do not know if this wide variation has something to do with my local Google server or the min I got with Mozilla and the max with Explorer - the minimum corresponds to the link included):


 * "congestion pricing" 333,000 to 987,000 hits (see here)
 * "Congestion charging" 225,000 to 337,000 (see here) or "congestion charge" 141,000 hits (see here)
 * "Congestion tax" 38,700 to 40,800 hits (see here)
 * "congestion tax" Australia 11,000 hits (see here)
 * "congestion tax" Stockholm 7,150 hits (see here)
 * and to support the proposal in the next section
 * "urban toll" 10,100 (see here)
 * "congestion toll" 14,100 hits (see here)


 * 2. If there is agreement with the above, I proposed to include a terminology sub-section under the roads section, like this one. The following is an outline of the main contents with the basic concepts. I will work the details and final edit only if consensus is reached, so feel free to comment below each paragraph:


 * Congestion pricing = Congestion charging or charges/fees, one is the American term and the other is the British one. Both are the most commonly used terms both in academic circles and literature, by the public press, and the general public.
 * A further level of distinction is required. "Congestion pricing/charging" is the theoretical concept.  "London Congestion Charge", "Stockholm Congestion Tax" & co. are pragmatic implementations, which do not necessarily fully adhere to all the theoretical principles, so are not necessarily pure implementations, and their names may be politically spun (e.g "Ecopass").  Congestion charges/fees/levies/taxes/tolls are the "things" that the users have to pay under the schemes, and should not be confused with the terms used for the concept ("Congestion charging/pricing"). -- de Facto (talk). 14:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Congestion pricing is sometimes confused with road pricing, both by press and by the public. Road pricing is a broader concept that includes gasoline taxes, parking fees, costs of ownership, annual vehicle fees, etc.
 * Be careful with the POV again. I'd say something like: "... is a broader concept that includes charges, fees, taxes and tolls for fuel, parking, vehicle ownership, etc.  Don't attemp to choose a specific term for each example. -- de Facto (talk). 14:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Congestion tax is used as synonymous to congestion pricing in some places, like Sweden and Australia. Often used in Australia by both the press, the public, and politicians, though it is legal nature is not officially a tax. In Sweden, the pricing scheme is called Stockholm congestion tax because legally was enacted as a tax. Do you want to mention it is more often used by advocates against?
 * I wouldn't bother with this one because I suspect that the legal definition of a tax varies by jurisdiction, even though the literal meaning of the word is more flexible. c.f. Pigovian tax . The different terms can be covered in the terminology group discussion as outlined in the first point. -- de Facto (talk). 14:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Urban toll and congestion toll are other popular terms sometimes used. The latter is often used in the context of congestion pricing in corridors. Urban toll is the favorite translation in other languages, particularly those branched out from Latin, such Spanish, French, Portuguese and Italian.
 * Again, cover in the one terminology discussion. -- de Facto (talk). 15:05, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Pollution charge is a term coined by Milanese authorities for their congestion price scheme. It is considered a variation of the congestion pricing programs in other countries because fees are based on the engine standard emissions reflecting the Ecopass program objective to reduce air pollution from vehicle emissions, even banning vehicles with older more polluting engines.
 * The Milan scheme is a hybrid, it's neither one thing or the other. It's apparent main objective is to reduce air pollution not congestion - so it probably falls outside of the scope of this article anyway.  It can be mentioned in the "Pollution pricing" article. -- de Facto (talk). 15:05, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I tried to be as comprehensive as possible, and some of this concepts are going to be though to support by direct RSs. Another option is not to include this sub-section, and instead to add the most relevant ideas at key paragraphs of the existing article. Now, let's have some feedback.--Mariordo (talk) 01:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No, your count rationale is flawed, and you are missing the point again.
 * I'm not arguing against the use of "congestion pricing" or even "congestion charging", I'm suggesting that "congestion tax" is a term in popular use as an alternative to "congestion charge" (not to "congestion charg ing "), "congestion fee", "congestion levy", etc.
 * A term count across the entire internet cannot possibly be used to judge whether a term is in popular use or not in the road congestion charging field, which is all we are discussing here. Also the particular choice of phrase for particular schemes can heavily influence the use of a term.  For instance the count for "congestion charge" is heavily influenced by the notoriety of the London Congestion Charge.  Of the 143,000 hits on "congestion charge", "London congestion charge" is in 110,000 of them.  A search which also includes a country name does not help.  If I write a piece about a local topic, I don't automatically include the country name in it.  In fact, I'd probably only include the country name if the target audience was largely in another country.
 * To determine the "popularity" of a term you need to target a source that more closely reflects popular use. That is why  I targeted newspapers.  I think I have already shown that "congestion tax" is in popular use, in Australia at least.  You need to search across English-language newspapers, books, tv, and such like, to get a true feel for what in popular use. -- de Facto (talk). 10:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I am lost here. Even you agree that the use of "congestion tax" is popular only in Australia, as the proposal says, so, what is wrong with it. The Google count is just a gross reference, but clearly all terms have biases, and your preferred term shows mainly in the Australian debate. And what about the rest of the proposal?--Mariordo (talk) 11:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I never agreed that he term was popular only in Australia, the first group of newspapers in "Newspaper of record" happened to be Australian. It may be popular elsewhere too.


 * I do support a sub-section, similar to the one you describe, explaining the variety of terminology surrounding this subject. That doesn't mean that I don't also expect the rest of the article to be NPOV, and inclusive of all political, social and non-specialist views too.  I'll add comments directly after your thoughts on this as you suggested.


 * Here are some more interesting term counts, from Google Books and from Google Scholar.


 * -- de Facto (talk). 14:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I did complete your search, because you skipped "congestion pricing", which results in 7510 hits in Google Scholar, plus 2420 hits of congestion charge, adds up to 9930 for the two most common terms, meaning that congestion tax represents only 4,7% of the word use (486 hits). Therefore, this result confirms my much gross finding above . So again, there is clear evidence that congestion tax IS NOT as popularly known as you proposed, but rather sometimes used as synonymous of congestion pricing or congestion charges, and much more used, or, commonly used in Australia. For me this issue is more than settle, but if you still insist on playing around with language and philosophical questions, please provide RSs. Also I would appreciate more specific comments on the proposal above. By the way you commented on them you almost persuade me that it is not worth it to include such section in the article. We all have to be aware of and separate our opinions and our views of the world from an enciclopedic NPOV, and in Wiki this is solved in a good part by editing based on reliable sources, not our interpretations of the content in these RS.--Mariordo (talk) 22:18, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The term "congestion pricing" applies in all cases in my table, so if you add it to the count for one of the alternative terms used for the resultant "amount of money to pay", then you must add it to them all. "Congestion pricing" or "congestion charging" gives rise to an amount of money having to be paid, by some, to use a facility.  That "amount of money to pay" is referred to using a variety of terminology, some of the main terms being in my table above.  It is whether to deliberately exclude one of those terms that we are discussing.  The "amount of money to pay" is never referred to as the "congestion pricing" or as the "congestion charging".  "Congestion price" may also be used and another one: "congestion tariff".  I've added them to the table below.


 * So you see that "congestion tax" is more commonly used, in the books and papers indexed, than "congestion fee" or "urban toll". There is no "playing around" involved, it is a serious issue of balance.
 * -- de Facto (talk). 10:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * But even assuming all your analysis is right, two facts remaing: 1. The most commonly used terms in both the academic and real world are congestion pricing and congestion charges, as the article reflects; and 2. Congestion tax, as the other terms you listed, are used by a minority or seldom used, with the exception of Australia, ergo it is not correct to say "congestin tax" is a "popularly known" term (or any of the other terms you searched).--Mariordo (talk) 11:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The most common, and probably the most generally acceptable, term for the charge applied under a congestiion pricing scheme seems to be "congestion charge", yes. May I suggest then for consistency that we use just it (obviously except where terminology is being discussed) throughout the article when referring to the actual charge, and only "congestion pricing" when refering to the principle, and add the section you suggested to discuss the all the prevalent terminology in use, and add an aka clause in the lead. -- de Facto (talk). 13:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Lets not put too much blind faith in the statistics of google searches. As both of you have said at various times, it not an accurate measure of acceptability. And nor does it imply that any particular term is accurate or encyclopaedic. When I looked at a random sample of few of the articles in the "congestion tax" counts above, some of them do not refer to specific schemes, others relate to to charges not being taxes, and others to other non-transport topics, such as building/planning control, etc. Its apparent that these google searches are an impractical, overinflated measure because you cannot get a meaningful count without reading the context. Ephebi (talk) 12:37, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree 100%, those were just gross numbers, context is the key as your correctly pointed out. I hope you can help me a bit explaining that in the discussion of version 1.2 below---Mariordo (talk) 02:11, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Proposal evolution
My proposed evolution of the above proposal by Mariordo for a "Terminology" sub-section for the "Urban roads" section.


 * Congestion pricing and congestion charging are used interchangeably as terms to describe the general concept and principle of this method of attempting to reduce congestion, the former is the American term and the latter is the British one. They are the most commonly used terms both in academic circles and literature and by the public media. Congestion pricing is sometimes confused with road pricing, both by the press and by the public. Road pricing is a broader concept that includes charges, fees, taxes and tolls for fuel, parking, vehicle ownership, etc.


 * Schemes such as the London Congestion Charge and the Stockholm Congestion Tax, and similar schemes, are pragmatic implementations of the congestion pricing doctrine, although they do not necessarily fully adhere to all the prescribed principles of such schemes. The official names given to schemes may not necessarily reflect the precise nature of the scheme in question.


 * As a result of the implementation of such a scheme, certain users, will, at certain times, have pay a "congestion charge" to use the road. Some of the other terms in general use when referring to the "congestion charges" are: "congestion fee", "congestion levy", "congestion price", "congestion tariff", "congestion tax", "congestion toll" and "urban toll".  The choice of term may be influenced by jurisdiction, geographical location, political persuation or advocacy group.

Please discuss. -- de Facto (talk). 15:36, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Great, now we are making progress! I answer back to you during the weekend. There are a couple of phrases that might need adjustment to avoid OR and in need of RS, and some style issues that I want to review first.-- ). Mariordo (talk 17:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * DF, please wait! If we were to have this section it does not mean you are free to change the wording in the entire article, you can not change what is stated in a source like that, it depends on the content, style (many times you change congestion pricing for congestion fees or congestion charges just for the sake of not keep repeating the same word), and always OR has to be avoided. Also, I want to remind you this is a Good Article, therefore, modifications and new edits have to keep the quality the article already has or improve it. Please wait, I will be making my proposal soon, but be aware that I want other editors to give a word on this section, particularly Ephebi, this is not something you and I are going to decide alone.--Mariordo (talk) 20:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Proposed text for "Terminology"
Congestion pricing(en-US) or congestion charges(en-GB) are synonymous terms used to describe the fees, tolls, or taxes surcharged to users with the aim to reduce peak demand to avoid further traffic congestion without increasing supply. These two terms are the most commonly used both in academic circles and literature and by the public and the media. Congestion pricing is sometimes confused with road pricing, both by the press and by the public. Road pricing is a broader concept that includes congestion pricing and other charges, fees, taxes and tolls than can be applied on fuels, parking rates, vehicle ownership titles, vehicle use, etc., aimed to restrain auto use and ownership.

Congestion fees, congestion tax, congestion toll, urban tolls, peak-hour toll, variable toll, and value pricing, are other less commonly used terms that also refer to congestion pricing. The term "value pricing" is often used by US transport authorities, particularly in the case of HOT lanes, and sometimes they even use it referring to the broader road pricing concept. "Congestion tax" is a term commonly used in Australia as synonymous to congestion pricing, even though the programs already implemented in that country were not levied legally as taxes.supported by this ref The congestion charge program implemented in Stockholm is indeed the only one that has been legally approved as a tax as of March 2009.


 * Note: Of course there is going to be more refs, particularly in the second paragraph. For the sake of simplifying the discussion, we can return to that important detail later, and just point it the most controversial one. I included the tag as an example of info that needs RS. I think we can avoid too many refs by using Wiki links.

"The Canadian economist William Vickrey first coined the term 'congestion pricing' in his original work on 'marginal cost pricing' for managing demand for the World Bank in the 1950s. This was followed by the mathematician and transport planner RJ Smeed in the UK a decade later; in his book 'Road pricing: the economic and technical possibilities' he recommended variable charging to manage traffic levels in congested networks" All the on-line references I can find for Vickrey use this term. I don't think Smeed used one specific term. Unfortunately I'm not aware of the original publications being on-line sources. Ephebi (talk) 12:27, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest tweaking any such text to describe the very precise origin of the term. AIUI:
 * Good suggestion, that will improve the section. Vickrey is no problem, there are RS on the web citing his work. I can look for Smeed.

Pending issues

 * I completely disagree that if the article has a "Terminology" sub-section, this entitles any editor you change wording and terms already in the article. First, the main purpose of any terminology section is to clarify to the reader which terms are synonymous, which ones are used incorrectly or confused, etc., and also will help contributing editors to write the article with the correct/proper and most commonly used/known terms, without constantly having to clarify the meaning. Second, in order to keep NPOV and to faithfully reflect the content from the sources, whenever possible (style is an exception), the original wording must be kept. By no means a terminology section objective is to pass judgment in the content or the wording used by the source, if it is a RS. I think that if these basic assumptions are troublesome, then we better do a simple disambiguation page, because they are so succinct that usually they are good at avoiding any NPOV or OR discussions.


 * If words such as "tax" and "fee" are to be marginalised in the terminology section, then how can their use in the main article, outside of direct quotes, be justified? -- de Facto (talk). 18:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The following paragraph is OR and there are no RS that I am aware of that backup such claim: Schemes such as the London Congestion Charge and the Stockholm Congestion Tax, and similar schemes, are pragmatic implementations of the congestion pricing doctrine, although they do not necessarily fully adhere to all the prescribed principles of such schemes. The official names given to schemes may not necessarily reflect the precise nature of the scheme in question. Here you need reliable sources to support these interpretations. See also my comment below regarding theory vs practice.


 * Have you looked for sources to support that assertion? Do you believe that all current schemes purported to be, or reported as "congestion pricing" schemes are nothing else? -- de Facto (talk). 18:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The following text is vague, so I proposed a simpler version that is not making the unnecessary difference between congestion pricing and the fees themselves, how you used it depends on the context, is more of writing style: As a result of the implementation of such a scheme, certain users, will, at certain times, have pay a "congestion charge" to use the road. Some of the other terms in general use when referring to the "congestion charges" are: "congestion fee", "congestion levy", "congestion price", "congestion tariff", "congestion tax", "congestion toll" and "urban toll". The choice of term may be influenced by jurisdiction, geographical location, political persuation or advocacy group.


 * "Pricing" is one thing - the system, a "charge" is an entirely different thing, the amount of money to be paid. -- de Facto (talk). 18:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I do not feel it is necessary nor very accurate to mention that "congestion tax" is often used by those advocating against such schemes, because actually they complaint is that congestion charges are other form of taxes or disguise taxation, but the term "congestion tax" is not used that often. Therefore, this issue is out of the scope of a terminology section and the article already mentions this fact, properly sourced, several times throughout the text.


 * "Congestion tax" is a common term used by newspapers, politicians, academics and the public alike. I agree that it isn't only used by those who advocate against such schemes. -- de Facto (talk). 18:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * One clarification is important. Economic theory defines a pricing mechanism such as "congestion charges" but it never goes into the details of implementation, as the version 1.1 of the text proposed is assuming. Economist talk about optimal solutions and second-best solution, as most literature foresaw the controversy that practical implementation implies, and advocated for "second-best solutions" to mitigate the associated problems, such inequality, more burden on the poor, etc. Despite all the theory, the biggest unknown is the actual price to be charged, as the theory does not allow for such accurate calculation, so in the real world it is each local government that must decide the fee structure and how much is going to charge, meaning, in practice it is a political decision that takes into consideration the investment and operating costs of the charging system, and the money that will be directed to transit and other improvements. I can provide all RS from the books already cited in the article to support this explanation, if required. Note: My OR, this is a tough decision for politicians to make because the more successful the charge is the less revenue you get; also very low charges will not reduce significantly traffic congestion, but very high charges will cause political unrest. Furthermore, as the 25 year-old Singapore case has shown, with time you always go back to pre-charge levels, as auto use and ownership continues to increase year after year, although you are better off than doing nothing, but this is too technical for most people to grasp. This is a trial and error process and economists do not attempt to make an estimate, because there are no analytical tools for doing so.


 * Yes, the article should be clear that schemes, generally, are not pure "congestion pricing" implementations, with many "political" features also being included. -- de Facto (talk). 18:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Please note with a tag the texts you think must have a specific RS, as I did with the use of value pricing as example.

I proposed we do the comments and suggestions below each of the above paragraphs.--Mariordo (talk) 23:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

More pending issues

 * 1) "Congestion pricing" and "congestion charges" are not synonymous. Pricing generally means the setting of a price or applying a price, so "congestion pricing" is basically the system of setting the price of congestion, and is similar in meaning to "congestion charging".  Charges is the plural of charge, which is the amount of money due, or to be paid, and is similar in meaning to fee, tax, levy, etc.  That is why I suggested the form of words that I did above.
 * Because English is not my native language, and I am more used to American English, I do not fully grasp the subtleties of the language, particularly British. However, considering all I have read it seems that the plural term "congestion charges" is in fact being widely used as synonymous of "congestion pricing" and the singular is used to refer to the actual fee. This new use of the term might be the result of the London scheme and the name they choose. Can we wait until more British editors give an opinion on this one. At Wiki the common use must prevail, though I understand that what you are pointing is grammatically correct, but the meaning seems to be different depending on the context.--Mariordo (talk) 13:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) "Road pricing" isn't only "aimed to restrain auto use and ownership". That may be one of its aims in certain cases.
 * Yes, traditional tolling is used to payback the investment or simply to increase government revenues. So, it needs expanding.--Mariordo (talk) 13:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) The literal English meaning of the word "tax" does not change, even if an authortity chooses not to use the word tax to describe a congestion charging scheme, or in the law enacting it.
 * Tax should be used only when enacted as such, the use of the word is contentious, so, it use must be avoided out of context. We are not allowed at Wiki to judge the legal nature, the sources speak louder. The article explains the proper context, and I think it is important to mention the common use in Australia.--Mariordo (talk) 13:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) If this reference from an Australian tabloid newspaper, in which a politician is reported to deny that the the Australian system is a tax, is good enough to support your POV that it isn't a tax, it is surely also good enough, as the same politicain is also reported as characterising the London and Singapore schemes as taxes, to support those facts too.
 * The important thing is who said, in this case a government official. The source is valuable because it is clarifying that it was not enacted as a tax, but everybody call it a congestion tax, and the official term the government is using is variable tolling by time-of-the-day. That is the piece of information that is relevant. This can be solved including the paragraph I suggested below that explains why politicians and technicians avoid/wash the term.--Mariordo (talk) 13:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) The stockholm system is a tax enacted as a tax, for legal expediency apparently. In what practical ways does it differ from other congestion pricing schemes?
 * For example, the fees paid by the Swedish are tax deductible from the income tax to avoid double taxing. The legal figure matters, and how taxes are treated legally vary from country to country. In my comment above, a toll being collected by a private party to repaid the investment is not a tax.--Mariordo (talk) 13:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

-- de Facto (talk). 18:12, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Here is some more evidence that congestion charges are also popularly regarded as taxes in places other than Australia. The start date for the "London congestion charge" was described in the Daily Telegraph, a leading British newspaper and RS, in an article titled "Congestion charges: the creeping tax", as follows: "The tax on traffic coming into central London starts a week today." -- de Facto (talk). 14:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * These two refs (RS) NYTimes and ITS Decision(a vendor) provide good support for the claim that some of the wording has been washed for political reasons. Would you Google for at least one more and make a proposal for a paragraph that would go after several less used terms, and some of those can be included in the list. This is an example of how you should avoid non NPOV and support your edits with a NPOV. Can you do the same with the other issues you raised, but please, contentious issues required more than 1 ref (I do prefer 3 at least)--Mariordo (talk) 05:42, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

PS: If you disagree with the updates I did tonight, please!!! discussed it here first, in a separate section, but let's finish this one first.

Reference reliability
I removed this reference from the 'Description' section paragraph about William Vickrey as I have a question about its attribution.

What evidence is there that William Vickrey is the author of this? If he is; was he writing about himself, including his own death, in the third person, or is it another William Vickrey? -- de Facto (talk). 12:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * de Facto, what you did is ridiculous, this time you went too far. William Vickrey died in 1992, it was a matter o clicking the Wiki link to his article. VTPI is making a transcription of the concepts he wrote before dying. If you are so mistrustful please do buy a textbook on transport economics or do a graduate course. This one from the bibliography is very good one explaining the theory and also discusses the pricing schemes implemented until 2007:  (Amazon.com.uk has it fo £26.99). It is not nice what you are doing, and it is making me waste my time policing you. I rather spent my time here at Wiki doing productive work, improving or creating new articles, rather than having these endless discussions and reversing your OR and non NPOV.


 * "Ridiculous"? Was the author of the cited document William Vickrey (who is actually stated to have died in 1996)?  Did VTPI write the document?  If they did, why doesn't the cite state that?  Is it a WP:RS? -- de Facto (talk). 11:32, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Read carefully: VTPI is reproducing some ideas Vickrey wrote, of course, before he died.--Mariordo (talk) 12:59, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Does dropping Vickrey as author= solves your concern, then do so, and leav VTPI as the publisher. But this is no reason to delete the ref. VTPI is the one saying he is the father of congestion pricing, and that is what the inline citation is about. Nothing of what they are reproducing from Vickres's work is being reproduced in the article.--Mariordo (talk) 13:30, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "Not nice what you are doing"? I'm challenging the accuracy of the cite, and all you have done is to confirm that the cite is indeed factually incorrect.  I would say it is "not nice" what you are doing.  Why are you "policing" me in these articles, and reverting my edits before discussing them?  How many times have you wasted your own time recently reverting my "OR" and "non NPOV" edits, only to later accept them as justified?  Please concentrate on "doing productive work", and do not worry about my edits.  I am a long-standing editor committed to balance, NPOV and RS. -- de Facto (talk). 11:32, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The economic theory behind congestion pricing is mainstream, I have tried by best to edit without technical jargon (such the optimal price must correspond to the short-term marginal cost) and reflect the ongoing practical implementation using the common use wording, included the caveats recognized by economists, and the practical implementation as reported by the popular press, and attended your observations and anyone else to keep the series of articles with a NPOV. Whether you like it or not, Ecopass is indeed both congestion pricing and pollution charges, that is how the municipality of Milan enacted it, and this fact is supported by the provided reliable sources. Nitpicking the parts you like from the sources is not NPOV, and your opinion or mine is just OR. Wiki is not a blog nor a platform to advocate your point of view or agenda. Please be more serious.


 * This does not excuse your revertion of my fully explained removal of a factually inaccurate citation. -- de Facto (talk). 11:42, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have had lots of patience with you, explored the issues you raised, and even explain to you the concepts behind congestion pricing. However, because of your disruptive behavior, if you jump into one more of your impulsive editing rallies, I will formally request the administrators for a ban, restricting you to edit any of the series of articles on road pricing, congestion pricing, road taxation, and the city/country case related articles. I ask you to finish the discussion here before doing more hasty edits here, on the Ecopass, or any of the articles in the series.


 * I patiently tolerate your apparent "revert first, discuss later" response to my edits, confident that after an initial tirade, you will generally accept inclusion of much of what I am putting forward. I may employ the recommended "WP:BOLD" approach to help achieve balance, but I would certainly dispute that it could be characterised as "disruptive behaviour".  Some though, may well characterise your mass-reversions as "disruptive".  However, I do not plan to attempt to stifle your valuable contributions by threatening to have you banned. -- de Facto (talk). 12:22, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Finally, be patient because I will take some time for me to respond to your comments giving the gymnastics you decided to do with the meaning of the words instead of looking at context. I will be quite busy the following next three weeks, but I'll be dropping by from time to time, and providing my feedback one by one of the issues you raised. It also is important to hear other opinions.--Mariordo (talk) 02:36, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * What "gymnastics? Is this about the incorrect reference? -- de Facto (talk). 12:29, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Apologies for taking this liberty but it was patently in the 3rd person. I note that you had escalated it as a non-RS to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. I have answered your question there. IMHO it seems apparent that by changing the entry from  author=Vickrey, William  to author=Victoria Transport Policy Institute you have an appropriate answer. Ephebi (talk) 17:32, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Answer to all of the above questions
The following is the answer to all of De Facto's questions regarding my general comment above. I will be straight forward, and even risking being snobbish, but I do want to put an end to this nonsense ping pong game between you and I, so we both can do a more productive contribution here at Wiki.


 * First, as you know I do have an academic background and professional experience on public policy, transport economics, transport planning and engineering, and civil engineering. As the main contributor to this article (235 out of 432 edits as of today) I have aimed since the beginning to write a comprehensive article, in a professional style but avoiding academic jargon as much as possible, and with a NPOV, reflecting the economist’s view and also the real world implementation, with its reactions and controversies. After the article gained Good Article status, I have been slowly updating info and adding the most recent developments. There are just a couple of pieces missing to complete the scope I was aiming for before submitting the article for WP:Peer review, and if this screening is successfully passed, then I will nominated it as Feature article article. Through the entire article development several editors have contribute, including you, but it is necessary to maintain the professional style if the article is to make it for FAC, otherwise might even lose its GA status.


 * De Facto, you have indeed been helpful in keeping the article’s NPOV, and as Ephebi already pointed out, the controversy and concerns sections reflect your concerns, suggestions and feedback, thus allowing the minority view to be properly represented in the article. My main complaint with your behavior has to do with your hastiness and your frequent boldness, the latter in your own words. The article has professional quality content, therefore, as it is the case with any Wiki article dealing with technical content, if you do not have expertise in the field or the academic background, it is not prudent to do such bold edits. My experience at Wiki shows that proper protocol dictates that you raise the issues in the Talk page first, and wait for one of the regular editors or main contributors with the technical background to comment on your issues. Being patient is part of the game; we all have other things to do. Even better you can be bold by writing and proposing in the Talk the alternative or additional text that you consider necessary, with several and proper references. The same applies to contentious wording, and “tax” has that connotation in this article.   Are you skeptical about this protocol, then just peek the Global Warming (a FA) or Global warming controversy Talk pages and its archives, to see this protocol working in practice.


 * I have been patient with you, and even went to the effort of trying to explain some economic concepts, and the above discussions are proof of that. However, if you are really serious about contributing constructively and being less disruptive, you do need to read the sources throughout (sometimes you have clearly cherry picked what supports your POV) and stop focusing so narrowly on words, out of context, and worst, ignoring that these wordings have a technical meaning in the theory of pricing. Going even further, if you are so interested in this subject then why you don’t make the effort to grasp the basic economic concepts behind congestion pricing, so we level the playing field. The book I recommended above is a textbook for grad students, but the following two were written for the general public:
 * This one explain all the concepts and particularly Chapters 3 (pricing signals) and 4 (Crosstown Traffic) explicitly discusses externality charges or charging (the author uses both) and the economic rationale of congestion pricing, including pros and cons.
 * Chapters 2 and 9 have a brief discussion about congestion pricing in the context of a low-carbon transport system, as part of climate change concerns.


 * Finally, I think we all need to spell out more clearly our questions and concerns, to be more specific, to cool down before answering, as the only way to avoid miscommunication and avoid wasting time in reversing each other edits. And wait patiently for the answers. I hope this helps to do a more constructing editing, and allow us to have a "Terminology" section with the participation of all the regular editors. --Mariordo (talk) 03:40, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Very well said Mariordo! I agree with most of that.  If I had a quibble, it would be be with the implication that a strong technical background results in a more NPOV, and that the views of laymen must be minority, so should be consigned to a special section.
 * I suspect that part of the cause of recent terminology "discussions" is that we have a slight geographical, cultural or other language "mismatch" where it comes to the choice and understanding of terminology. English, has a very rich vocabulary, with many words for the same thing, and with variations (sometimes huge, sometimes very subtle) in meanings of the same words between geographies and cultures.
 * I think we definitely need to avoid is the use of spun terminology. Economists, politicians or whoever may well coin a phrase or a term for a concept or scheme, which deliberately, or otherwise, avoids the use of the more honest and transparent words.  This terminology should, of course, be mentioned, but should certainly not be used or referred to as the accepted term for the thing that it refers to.  This includes accepting at face value claims that certain schemes are "congestion pricing" schemes, because they are described as such in RS media reports, or by the authority implementing them (primary sources).  We should only describe schemes as "congestion pricing" with RS supported evidence that have all the qualifying characteristics of a "congestion pricing" scheme. -- de Facto (talk). 11:22, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * First, I guess you miss this I wrote above regarding the terminology. This shows that you are misinterpreting my answer.


 * These two refs (RS) NYTimes and ITS Decision(a vendor) provide good support for the claim that some of the wording has been washed for political reasons. Would you Google for at least one more and make a proposal for a paragraph that would go after several less used terms, and some of those can be included in the list. This is an example of how you should avoid non NPOV and support your edits with a NPOV. Can you do the same with the other issues you raised, but please, contentious issues required more than 1 ref (I do prefer 3 at least)--Mariordo (talk) 05:42, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * And second, what you wrote in your last paragraph is flagrant OR, we are not allow to interpret "spun terminology". At Wikipedia we are NOT allow to pass judgment on the wording, nor cleansing or sanitizing the content as published. However, we can write a paragraph like the one I suggested and reproduced for you above. --Mariordo (talk) 11:36, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you are looking at it the wrong way around. You (if I understand correctly) are suggesting that we accept, at face value, what the authorities call it in the primary sources, and that we need RS to support dissent.  I am suggesting that the primary sources should be used with caution, and their assertions only accepted if proof of their validity (not just of the use of the term) is provided from secondary RS sources.  OR means not supported with RS, and can apply if only primary sources are used. -- de Facto (talk). 12:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)